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You Have to Read 8 Rakats - Mufti AbdurRahman ibn Yusuf

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#46 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 17:34
Concerned wrote:
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In your first post, you wrote
concerned wrote:
So I used to think , from what people say, that praying less than twenty is a modern phenomenon, but after reading the above, I no longer hold that view and I see that there is flexibility in the matter.[/quote]
Out of 1400 years, does the last 200 years make it a modern phenomenon? I think it does.

Is there any flexibility? There wasn't any need of it because it is not Fard, so of course if someone cannot pray it, there is no sin on him. As long as there are others in the local area offering the Prayers.

Any matter that changes within the school and becomes the rule of the school, then that's a different opinion and accepted, just like the issue of the beard in the Shafi school.
concerned wrote:
Also there would be no SIN according to the Shafis and Malikis even if they don't pray any taraweeh.[/quote]
The same for the Hanafi's. The sin is when it is neglected or if one adopts less than 20 as the Sunnah
abu mohammed wrote:
If one wishes to pray 8, he doesn't fulfil the Sunnah of Taraweeh. If one wishes to pray 36, he fulfils the sunnah of Taraweeh and more.[/quote]

[quote="concerned"]what i shared in this thread is sufficient for me to be open minded on the issue

As long as you stick to one school and it's opinion's, I'm sure everyone is fine with that. But not to choose bits and pieces from other schools to complete one's understanding unless one is a qualified scholar to do that.

[quote="concerned"] I will stick to my view that it would be incorrect to make such a big deal if someone prays less than 20....
Then you are not of the Hanafi school of thought, which is apparent.

[quote="concerned"].....and to make it seem as if the modern day salafis are the first to come up with this idea of praying lesss than 20.
That's not correct either, it was the Shia to first invent this matter.


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#47 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 17:53
Quote:
Out of 1400 years, does the last 200 years make it a modern phenomenon? I think it does. [/quote]

So you are assuming that the Maliki madhab's position quoted is a modern maliki position, and the shafi response by Shaykh Isa is based on modern shafi opinions. You would have to prove this.

Quote:
The same for the Hanafi's. The sin is when it is neglected or if one adopts less than 20 as the Sunnah
[/quote]

No it is not the same. A follower of the other 3 madhabs can just not pray it and their would no sin. Might not be wise, but still no sin.

Quote:
As long as you stick to one school and it's opinion's, I'm sure everyone is fine with that. But not to choose bits and pieces from other schools to complete one's understanding unless one is a qualified scholar to do that.


It doesn't matter which school one belongs to, once it is established that the other schools have valid different views, then there is no condemnation of that view. My quotes show their are different views, so unless proven incorrect you have no right to condemn the other views.

[quote]Then you are not of the Hanafi school of thought, which is apparent.


If one is a hanafi, one has to respect other schools opinions, so no need to make a big deal if someone follows the quoted maliki view, even if that person is a hanafi, as taqleed shaksi is not necessary as discussed before.

[quote]That's not correct either, it was the Shia to first invent this matter.


Ok correct, but we dont discuss fiqh with shias, so its the salafis that take the blame for acting on the different views within ahlus sunnah wal jammah.
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#48 [Permalink] Posted on 21st June 2017 18:04
Who "condemned" anyone of the opinions?

Any difference of opinion within all four schools is perfectly valid within their own rights.

Back to my previous question then, why did Imam Malik pray 36?

(Leaving before prayer has finished is a different thing and of course one can leave if they have a valid reason, as long as others are continuing in its full)
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#49 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 09:39

abu mohammed wrote:
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As (Maulana) Ustadh Abdus Shakoor Brooks (HA) has pointed out that the prominent opinion in the Maliki Madhab is that Taraweeh is 20 Rakaat with congregation.

www.awqaf.gov.ae/Fatwa.aspx?SectionID=9&RefID=12584

لتراويح عشرون ركعة وهو مشهور مذهب الإمام مالك رحمه الله كما نص عليه الشيخ خليل وشروحه،

The opinion of Imam Malik (RA) was that Taraweeh was 39 Rakaat as he ascertained it from the practise of people of Madina and it is authentically narrated y his student Nafi (RA). This is 36 + 3 Rakaat of Wit'r

www.alifta.net/Fatawa/fatawaDetails.aspx?View=Page&Pa...

وذهب الإمام مالك رحمه الله إلى أن صلاة التراويح تصلى تسعا وثلاثين ركعة ، وحجته في ذلك عمل أهل المدينة ، قال نافع : أدركت الناس يقومون تسعا وثلاثين ركعة ، ويوترون منها بثلاث

There is no mention of 8 Rakaat Jamaat anywhere in Madina, at all!

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#50 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 10:02
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Jzk, I appreciate your reply. But my aim was to make a very important point. I know why Imam Malik did 36 Rakaats - it was dealt with in the lecture by Shaykh Riyadhul Haq.

The attitude of Imam Malik and the Maliki's "was" to "Do More" in response to the advantages of the people of Makkah and what the Makkans did as their Tarweeha - pause between the four rakaats.

Yet today we find people looking for a loophole to do less (I'm not implying that brother concerned is doing this).

Brother concerned is simply trying put views forward that it doesn't matter how many rakaats one wants to pray behind the Imam or at home according to the other schools, fair enough!

All I'm trying to say is that it has always been 20 rakaats that should be taken as the Sunnah. Anything less than that doesn't fulfil the Sunnah according to the Hanafi school - but it is sufficient in other schools. The other thing I'm trying to say is that if one is doing Taraweeh, do all 20 or don't do it at all (as long as someone in the area is performing it) and if one can only offer some of the rakaats at some of the times, then fine. But don't consider it to be a fulfilment of the entire sunnah.

At the end of the day, these schools still advocate 20 rakaats.
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#51 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 10:09
As posted in the blog post linked on page one, 4th paragraph in my response to Dr Zakir Naik's answer.
abu mohammed wrote:
You speak about the Salafus Saleheen that they offered different numbers of Rakats, but it is well known that the people of Makkah used to perform Tawaf after every 4 rakats as their pause (Tarweeha) and because the people of Madinah were unable to perform Tawaf, they prayed 4 rakats Nafil Salah individualy and not in jamaat, as their pause (Tarweeha), making a total of 36 rakats in Madinah, but this act was soon stopped, this argument can not be used.
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#52 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 10:22

abu mohammed wrote:
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Absolutely and I get your point. I am trying to say the same thing i.e. the inhabitants of the beloved city of Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) knew nothing about 8 Rakaat Taraweeh Jamaat at all.

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#53 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 11:20
salaam,

I recall also another logical proof against the 8 rakaat "taraweeh":

The salah is called taraweeh because of the pause for rest after every 4 rakaats - this pause is called tarwiha (singular). Now if only 8 rakaats are prayed and is the norm/sunnah, there would only be one tarwiha between each 4 rakaats. Therefore it would be illogical to name the salah as "taraweeh" which is the plural of of tarwiha, if the salah only consisted of just one tarwiha.

For it to be named taraweeh it would be necessary to have a number of tarwiha, which makes 8 rakaats invalid.
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#54 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 11:25
SunniSeeker wrote:
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Sub-han Allah.


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#55 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 11:36

SunniSeeker wrote:
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Yes Hazrat (Maulana) Sarfaraz Saheb (RA) has mentioned this argument but it isn't particularly conclusive (or agreed upon) from a grammatical point of view.

www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AA%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%88%D9...

And Hazrat mentions it as an ancillary (additional) point to his main arguments.

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#56 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 11:57
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Can you explain why it isn't grammatically sound?
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#57 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 12:05

SunniSeeker wrote:
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Read the link and the explanations and also check other dictionaries. Maybe I used the word “sound” incorrectly and what I should have said is that it’s not “conclusive”

Check several other Arabic dictionaries. My reason for warning you is to prevent you from going to Salafi forums and using this particular argument (exclusively). Hazrat (RA) brings this an “additional” point in his analysis and it certainly a point.

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#58 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 12:10
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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I don't understand Arabic brother that's why I asked - from the link I can only make out that taraweeh is plural of tarwiha and is prayer performed after isha in Ramadan :)


I understand your advice about it being a side point and not the main argument. jazakAllah khayran
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#59 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd June 2017 15:24
Quote:
Jzk, I appreciate your reply. But my aim was to make a very important point. I know why Imam Malik did 36 Rakaats - it was dealt with in the lecture by Shaykh Riyadhul Haq.

The attitude of Imam Malik and the Maliki's "was" to "Do More" in response to the advantages of the people of Makkah and what the Makkans did as their Tarweeha - pause between the four rakaats.

Yet today we find people looking for a loophole to do less (I'm not implying that brother concerned is doing this).

Brother concerned is simply trying put views forward that it doesn't matter how many rakaats one wants to pray behind the Imam or at home according to the other schools, fair enough!

All I'm trying to say is that it has always been 20 rakaats that should be taken as the Sunnah. Anything less than that doesn't fulfil the Sunnah according to the Hanafi school - but it is sufficient in other schools. The other thing I'm trying to say is that if one is doing Taraweeh, do all 20 or don't do it at all (as long as someone in the area is performing it) and if one can only offer some of the rakaats at some of the times, then fine. But don't consider it to be a fulfilment of the entire sunnah.

At the end of the day, these schools still advocate 20 rakaats.[/quote][quote]


I can agree with the above. The only point is regarding the issue of one feeling guilty for reading less than 20, or thinking if an individual reads less than twenty he is wrong and going against the sunnah, and I did not get the impression that this was intended from the maliki and shafi scholars. Some people have the impression that its all or nothing, except in rare cases where you have a strong valid excuse. I am not speaking about the guilt one may feel guilty due to not praying more, in the same way one would feel guilty for not doing extra ibadat, but the guilt for doing something wrong.
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#60 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd June 2017 04:21
Sh Abu Yusuf Riyadul Haq mentions some interesting narations in his lecture around 28:00, which can also be found in Hayatus Sahaba, Vol 3, p 193. I reproduce the narrations mentioned here, as well as the one that follows it. I have highlighted the interesting parts, it would be nice to see what the Ulama have said about these narrations and their strength. We hear that the shahaba prevented the women from coming to the Masjid, but here are narrations which shows 3 Khulafa making provisions for the women to attend taraweeh.

Hadhrat Ubay R.A, Hadhrat Tameera Daari R.A and Hadhrat Sulaymaan bin Abu Hathma R.A Lead the People in Taraweeh

Hadhrat Urwa R.A reports that when Hadhrat Umar R.A had all the people
perform the (Taraweeh) salaah of Ramadhaan collectively, he gathered the men
behind Hadhrat Ubay bin Ka'b R.A and the women behind Hadhrat Sulaymaan
bin Abu Hathma R.A.
' 2 '

Hadhrat Umar bin Abdulaah Ansi reports that it was Hadhrat Ubay bin Ka'b
R.A and Hadhrat Tameem Daari R.A. who stood in the place of Rasulullaah
Sallalahu Alyhi Wasalam to lead the men in Taraweeh salaah inside the Masjid while Hadhrat
Sulaymaan bin Abu Hathma R.A led the women in Taraweeh salaah in the
courtyard of the Masjid.
(This was during the Khilaafah of Hadhrat Umar R,A)
However, when Hadhrat Uthmaan bin Affaan R.A. became the Khalifah, he had
both men and women follow one Qaari, who happened to be Hadhrat Sulaymaan
bin Abu Hathma R.A.
Hadhrat Uthmaan R.A. would instruct the women
to stay back and they were only allowed to leave (the Masjid) after the men
had all left. (3)

Hadhrat Arjafa says, "Hadhrat Ali bin Abi Taalib §3)£!@e> used to instruct the
people to perform the (Taraweeh) salaah of Ramadhaan and would appoint an
Imaam for the men and another for the women.
I was the Imaam of the women."'' 5 '

Hadhrat Ubay bin Ka'b R.A. Leads the Women of his Household in Taraweeh Salaah

Hadhrat Jaabir R.A. reports, "Ubay bin Ka'b R.A. came to Rasulullaah sallahu alayhi wasalam
one night of Ramadhaan saying, 'O Rasulullaah salalahu alyhi wasalam I have done something
tonight (and wish to know if it was correct).' 'What is it, O Ubay?' Rasulullaah
salalhu alyhi wasalam enquired. Hadhrat Ubay R.A. explained, 'The women of my household
said to me, 'Since we cannot recite the (entire) Qur'aan (from memory), we shall
follow you in salaah.' I therefore led them in eight Rakaahs of salaah and then
performed the Witr.' Rasulullaah sallahu alayhi waslam (approved and) did not condemn what
Ubay }R.A did.
The act is therefore established as a Sunnah because of
Rasulullaah sallahu alyhi wasalam approval." ' 5 '


(1) Ibn Shaaheen, as quoted in Kanzvl Ummaal (Vol.4 Pg.284). Khateeb in his Amaalin and Ibn Asaakir
have reported a similar narration, as quoted in Muntakhab Kanzul Ummaal (Vol.4 Pg.387).

(2) Firyaabi and Bayhaqi, as quoted in Kanzul Ummaal '(Vol.4 Pg.283).

(3) ibn Sa'd (Vol.5 Pg.26).

(4) Bayhaqi, as quoted in Kanzul Ummaal '(Vol.4 Pg.284).

(5) Abu Ya'la and Tabraani, reporting from reliable sources as confirmed by Haythami (Vol.2 Pg.74).
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