Prayer of a Hanafi behind another Imam

London

27,445

Brother

9,578

#16 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd January 2013 18:41

Daywalk3r wrote:

How should the above information be (a) promulgated to the masses and (b) academically discussed with those spreading the 'other' view to the masses (that salah behind X imam is not valid) in order to stop the tidal waves of sectarian hatred thats burning, sometimes uncontrollably, in some areas ..

Personally I will leave the experts to answer that. Being a lay person I see it as having two options with a variety of outcomes but only one positive.

*) Your Salaah is Valid if the Imam had done an act contrary to your school as long as it is from their school and they are not "pick and mix"ing things

1) You pray behind the Imam
2) You don't pray behind the Imam

Outcomes
1) You pray without a doubt and all is well
2) You know its wrong yet you pray - your playing with your Deen
3) You don't know its wrong - your still playing with your Deen.
4) You cant decide then its better to be safe than sorry.
5) If the Ulama have erred in their fatwa, they will have one reward and there's no sin on those who follow.

Ask yourself, would you like to be safe rather than sorry.

Conclusion
Go safe.

Allahu alum, and I'm sure we can add a lot more to the outcomes

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

1,431

Brother

691

#17 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd January 2013 20:05

i would prefer for this post to be removed and replaced with: " its an interesting subject i feel should be discussed openly with respect and adaab from the mimbars so the masses dont have any doubts or ill feelings towards others"

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Londoner

#18 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd January 2013 20:32

Asslamo Allaikum,

Will responded to Hazrat Mufti Abu Hajira Saheb (HA) in due time.

Jazakullah Khairun

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

London

27,445

Brother

9,578

#19 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd January 2013 20:49

Quote:

i have, and do, follow "1) You pray without a doubt and all is well" however others definition/level of what "doubt" is may not be the same across the board (and thats, imo, is completely fine), my issue is when someone gives a two hour talk labelling everyone on the 'other' side a deviant and edging towards even saying that the 'other' side will eventually openly even slander the Sahaba رضي الله عنه (i.e. blanket statements tarring all with the same brush), which results in certain areas having extreme attitudes toward the 'other' side. Just the other day i asked a brother (my cousin) what the Esha time is at a 'other' masjid, i asked him as thats a closer masjid to him then the one i usually see him at. His response was like a look of sheer and utter horror that I had the idea he prays at the 'other' masjid. Literally his eyes just seemed like they popped out ...like you see in those old skool looney tunes cartoon :-(

Our ulama teach us that as long as the aqeedah is sound it is permitted. Not having wudhu is a totally different aspect.

To be honest, the ones who are doing the slandering and causing fitna are the ones who are less educated, less qualified and fear Allah less.

It all comes down to Taqwa, the stronger your Taqwa the more careful one would be. Just like Imam Abu hanifa didn't eat a certain breed of animal just in case it was the stolen one and he stuck to this rule until it was not possible for that animal to still be alive.

Same thing goes for our food, do we go HFA or HMC, benefit of doubt without the slightest investigation could cost us dearly because we know of the possibility of the food not being halal at all according to our madhab.

Once again, take the safest option. Better to be safe than sorry.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

11,704

Brother

289

#20 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd January 2013 11:34

Asslamo Allaikum, Blog updated and Shaykh Hazrat Mufti Abu Hajira (HA) replied to in google+ and Insha'Allah as soon as I have the necessary Fatwaas I will make translate and make public. See bottom of the blog.

I have also deleted the text from the first post so as to keep everything in one place.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

There is no Plan B!

http://www.central-mosque.com/

London

27,445

Brother

9,578

#21 [Permalink] Posted on 24th January 2013 23:00

I know this is to do with salaah. But what if someone takes this rule and applies it for every matter of Fiqh. For example, certain foods are considered halal in the Maliki school but on the the other hand, it is haram in the hanafi school.

Or if a shafi' prays salaah behind an Imam who had touched a women before salaah and didn't repeat his wudhu.

There can be plenty of situations like this where the person will abandon his way and continue with the way of another.

I would also like to stress in how hard Imam Abu hanifa found it to believe that wudhu could be done on leather socks. He says that if it wasn't for the huge amount of hadith, then he wouldn't of allowed it.

Surely, this leads to becoming a ghair muqallaid.

I still feel that if something is forbidden in your school, then you should refrain from it.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

11,704

Brother

289

#22 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 10:21

"abu mohammed" wrote:

I know this is to do with salaah. But what if someone takes this rule and applies it for every matter of Fiqh. For example, certain foods are considered halal in the Maliki school but on the the other hand, it is haram in the hanafi school. Or if a shafi' prays salaah behind an Imam who had touched a women before salaah and didn't repeat his wudhu. There can be plenty of situations like this where the person will abandon his way and continue with the way of another. I would also like to stress in how hard Imam Abu hanifa found it to believe that wudhu could be done on leather socks. He says that if it wasn't for the huge amount of hadith, then he wouldn't of allowed it. Surely, this leads to becoming a ghair muqallaid. I still feel that if something is forbidden in your school, then you should refrain from it.

Asslamo Allaikum,

You are misunderstanding the issue, slightly. This has nothing to do with me (as a Hanafi) adopting positions of different Madhabs at all. This is to do with:

Shaf'ae Imam performing Wudhu and Salah according to and fulfilling all conditions of his Madhab and leading Salah
Hanafi performing Wudhu and Salah according to and fulfilling all conditions of his Madhab and following in Salah

The issue is completely opposite of what you are suggesting i.e. in this case both are sticking to their Madhabs, nobody is asking them to change at all

So while they are sticking to their Madhabs then what Shah Abdul-Aziz (RA) is saying is that if you forbid Salah behind a Shaf'ae Imam (for example) then what is the difference between four Madhabs (who are all part of Ahlus-Sunnah) and prayer behind deviant heretic sects like Shia etc?

Do you see the issue? Absolutely nothing to do with a Hanafi trying to adopt concessions or leniency from the Shaf'ae Madhab (or vice versa).

Jazakullah Khairun

report post quote code quick quote reply

+1 -0Like x 1

There is no Plan B!

http://www.central-mosque.com/

London

27,445

Brother

9,578

#23 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 12:07

Jazakallahu khairan.

Yes I absolutely agree and fully understand the issue Alhumdulillah.

What I'm trying to do is put forward an argument that others are implementing by reading this and then taking their point of view to clarify that what they are doing is wrong.

Eg, it permissible for a hanafi to pray behind the hanbali Imam who has performed wudhu on cotton socks, that doesn't make it permissible for the hanafi to do wudhu in the same way, only that he can pray behind that particular imam.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

11,704

Brother

289

#24 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 12:31

"abu mohammed" wrote:

Jazakallahu khairan. Yes I absolutely agree and fully understand the issue Alhumdulillah. What I'm trying to do is put forward an argument that others are implementing by reading this and then taking their point of view to clarify that what they are doing is wrong. Eg, it permissible for a hanafi to pray behind the hanbali Imam who has performed wudhu on cotton socks, that doesn't make it permissible for the hanafi to do wudhu in the same way, only that he can pray behind that particular imam.

One of the foremost Ahl-e-Hadeeth Scholars of our time Imam (Shaykh) Abdur-Rahmaan Mubarakpuri (RA) who wrote the 10 volume commentary of Jami Tirmidhi REJECTS and DISAGREES with the strength of evidence and regards it IMPERMISSABLE to make Mas'ah on thin (cotton) socks after a lenghty discussion in his commentary Shaykh (RA) concludes:

والحاصل : أنه ليس في باب المسح على الجوربين حديث مرفوع صحيح خال عن الكلام ، هذا ما عندي والله تعالى أعلم

The conclusion is, that with regards to wiping over cotton socks, there is no Marfoo’ Hadith which could be classed Saheeh and free from dispute.

In conclusion:

It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in the Hanafi Madhab
It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in Shaf'ae Madhab
It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in Maliki Madhab
It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks according to major Scholars of Ghair-Muqalideen (Ahl-e-Hadeeth)

Hanbali Madhab appears to be all alone but let the Hanbalees worry about their own Madhab :-)

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

There is no Plan B!

http://www.central-mosque.com/

London

27,445

Brother

9,578

#25 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 14:29

Quote:

1. It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in the Hanafi Madhab
2. It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in Shaf'ae Madhab
3. It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in Maliki Madhab
4. It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks according to major Scholars of Ghair-Muqalideen (Ahl-e-Hadeeth)

Hanbali Madhab appears to be all alone but let the Hanbalees worry about their own Madhab :-)

Was Shaykh Bin Baz (RH) a Ghair Muqallid in fiqh or was he Hanbali?

اتفقوا على جواز المسح على المجلدين والمنعلين وكذالك اتفقوا على عدم جوازه على الرقيقين يشفان واختلفوا فى الثخينين فالجمهور جوزوه ومنعه ابو حنيفة
(Ma'arifus Sunan)

قال ابو حنيفة لا يجوز المسح على الجوربين الا ان يكونا مجلدين او منعلين لان الجورب ليس معنى الخف لانه لا يمكن مواظبة المشى فيه الا اذا كانا منعلا وهو محمل الحديث المخبر للمسح على الجورب...الا انه رجع الى قول الصاحبين في اخر عمره...واشترط المالكية كابي حنيفة ان يكونا الجوربان مجلدين ظاهرهما وباطنهما حتى يمكن المشي فيهما عادة... واجاز الشافعية المسح على الجورب بشرطين احدهما ان يكون صفيقا لا يشف بحيث يمكن متابعة المشي عيله الثانى ان يكون منعلا فان اختل احد الشرطين لم يجز المسح عليه... واباح الحنابلة المسح على الجورب بالشرطين المذكورين في الخف وهما الاول ان يكون صفيقا لا يبدو منه شئ من القدم الثانى ان يمكن متابعة المشى فيه...
(al fiqhul islami wa adilatuhu vol 1 pg 498)

I was under the impression that the madhaahib were unanimous on the impermissibility of wiping over thin socks (like the kind we mainly wear today).

Even Shaykh Ibn Baz رضي الله عنه has written that it is not permissible to wipe over them (fatawa islamiyah)

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

11,704

Brother

289

#26 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 14:51

"abu mohammed" wrote:

Quote:

1. It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in the Hanafi Madhab 2. It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in Shaf'ae Madhab 3. It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks in Maliki Madhab 4. It is not permissable to wipe over thin cotton socks according to major Scholars of Ghair-Muqalideen (Ahl-e-Hadeeth) Hanbali Madhab appears to be all alone but let the Hanbalees worry about their own Madhab :-)

Was Shaykh Bin Baz (RH) a Ghair Muqallid in fiqh or was he Hanbali? اتفقوا على جواز المسح على المجلدين والمنعلين وكذالك اتفقوا على عدم جوازه على الرقيقين يشفان واختلفوا فى الثخينين فالجمهور جوزوه ومنعه ابو حنيفة (Ma'arifus Sunan) قال ابو حنيفة لا يجوز المسح على الجوربين الا ان يكونا مجلدين او منعلين لان الجورب ليس معنى الخف لانه لا يمكن مواظبة المشى فيه الا اذا كانا منعلا وهو محمل الحديث المخبر للمسح على الجورب…الا انه رجع الى قول الصاحبين في اخر عمره…واشترط المالكية كابي حنيفة ان يكونا الجوربان مجلدين ظاهرهما وباطنهما حتى يمكن المشي فيهما عادة… واجاز الشافعية المسح على الجورب بشرطين احدهما ان يكون صفيقا لا يشف بحيث يمكن متابعة المشي عيله الثانى ان يكون منعلا فان اختل احد الشرطين لم يجز المسح عليه… واباح الحنابلة المسح على الجورب بالشرطين المذكورين في الخف وهما الاول ان يكون صفيقا لا يبدو منه شئ من القدم الثانى ان يمكن متابعة المشى فيه… (al fiqhul islami wa adilatuhu vol 1 pg 498) I was under the impression that the madhaahib were unanimous on the impermissibility of wiping over thin socks (like the kind we mainly wear today). Even Shaykh Ibn Baz رضي الله عنه has written that it is not permissible to wipe over them (fatawa islamiyah)

Hanbali and he states the same two conditions and the deinition of "thick". The above quotation says nothing different to what has been added to the blog

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

There is no Plan B!

http://www.central-mosque.com/

London

27,445

Brother

9,578

#27 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 15:03

Jazakallahu khair, then let me remind you of the postition of the Ghair Muqallid's who use Imam Ahmed as evidence.

One more point to note that the Salafi of today are going in the guise of being Hanbali. Its a tuff one to tell. But most likely they are Salafi.

They say that the sock can be made of glass - so much for the rule of not being see through!

www.muftisays.com/forums/debates-refutations/6310/masah-o...

The above link will not work for everyone, apologies for that.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

11,704

Brother

289

#28 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 15:14

"abu mohammed" wrote:

Jazakallahu khair, then let me remind you of the postition of the Ghair Muqallid's who use Imam Ahmed as evidence. One more point to note that the Salafi of today are going in the guise of being Hanbali. Its a tuff one to tell. But most likely they are Salafi. They say that the sock can be made of glass - so much for the rule of not being see through! www.muftisays.com/forums/debates-refutations/6310/masah-o... The above link will not work for everyone, apologies for that.

The Mas'ala about Mas'ah on socks is written in books of Hanbali Fiqh and here is Al-Mughni, underlined is almost word for word of what Shaykh Ibn Baz (RA) said:

مسألة: قال: (وكذلك الجورب الصفيق الذي لا يسقط إذا مشى فيه) إنما يجوز المسح على الجورب بالشرطين اللذين ذكرناهما في الخف، أحدهما أن يكون صفيقا، لا يبدو منه شيء من القدم. الثاني أن يمكن متابعة المشي فيه. هذا ظاهر كلام الخرقي. قال أحمد في المسح على الجوربين بغير نعل: إذا كان يمشي عليهما، ويثبتان في رجليه، فلا بأس.
وفي موضع قال: يمسح عليهما إذا ثبتا في العقب. وفي موضع قال: إن كان يمشي فيه فلا ينثني، فلا بأس بالمسح عليه، فإنه إذا انثنى ظهر موضع الوضوء. ولا يعتبر أن يكونا مجلدين، قال أحمد: يذكر المسح على الجوربين عن سبعة، أو ثمانية، من أصحاب رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم -.
وقال ابن المنذر: ويروى إباحة المسح على الجوربين عن تسعة من أصحاب رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم -؛ علي، وعمار، وابن مسعود، وأنس، وابن عمر، والبراء، وبلال، وابن أبي أوفى، وسهل بن سعد، وبه قال عطاء، والحسن وسعيد بن المسيب، والنخعي، وسعيد بن جبير، والأعمش، والثوري، والحسن بن صالح، وابن المبارك، وإسحاق، ويعقوب، ومحمد. وقال أبو حنيفة، ومالك، والأوزاعي، ومجاهد، وعمرو بن دينار، والحسن بن مسلم، والشافعي: لا يجوز المسح عليهما، إلا أن ينعلا؛ لأنهما لا يمكن متابعة المشي فيهما، فلم يجز المسح عليهما، كالرقيقين ولنا: ما روى المغيرة بن شعبة، «أن النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - مسح على الجوربين والنعلين» .
قال الترمذي: هذا حديث حسن صحيح. وهذا يدل على أن النعلين لم يكونا عليهما؛ لأنهما لو كانا كذلك لم يذكر النعلين، فإنه لا يقال: مسحت على الخف ونعله؛ ولأن الصحابة - رضي الله عنهم -، مسحوا على الجوارب، ولم يظهر لهم مخالف في عصرهم، فكان إجماعا؛ ولأنه ساتر لمحل الفرض، يثبت في القدم، فجاز المسح عليه، كالنعل. وقولهم: لا يمكن متابعة المشي فيه. قلنا: لا يجوز المسح عليه إلا أن يكون مما يثبت بنفسه، ويمكن متابعة المشي فيه. فأما الرقيق فليس بساتر

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

There is no Plan B!

http://www.central-mosque.com/

London

27,445

Brother

9,578

#29 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 20:28

So it is very clear that the hanbali have the rule of thickness etc. In other words the socks need to be thick enough and not see through.

The problem today is that these rules aren't taken into cconsideration by those who are wiping over their socks. This is clear from the thread link posted above. Those who are doing it are using evidence from else where and most importantly they are taking the literal meaning of the hadith.

If you read that thread, it kind of concluded with the changing of the verse of the Qur'an in order to back their ways.

I don't feel they are following the hanbali Fiqh in this issue, they are following shaykh ibn taymiyyah (rh).

Where in this country, especially London, is there a Hanbali Masjid apart from shaykh Haytham al Haddad (ha)? (i know there are, but do you?)

I would also like to know that those who are claiming to pray their salah behind a Hanbali Imam, is that Imam hanbali or salafi?

It is also clear that they need to be in wudhu when they had the socks on and then re did wudu without having removed their sock at all, however these people perform wudhu directly on their socks without having done wudhu before. (this is from discussions with salafis before). This is the way of the Shia and once again thier evidence is the changing of the verse of the Quran.

My issue is not with the hanbali school, rather with those who have taken this a step further and our lot seem to find it normal.

How can salah be done in this case when it is contrary to all four schools?

report post quote code quick quote reply

+1 -0Like x 1Agree x 1

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

London

27,445

Brother

9,578

#30 [Permalink] Posted on 25th January 2013 22:59

This whole topic is based upon a clear understanding, and I guess we all agree upon it,

Quote:

Imaam Ahmad believed and held the opinion that eating camel meat breaks the wudoo whereas Imaam al-Shaafa'ee believed and held the opinion that eating camel meat doesnt break the wudoo. The time for salaah came and Imaam al-Shaafa'ee was asked to lead the salaah. A man came to Imaam Ahmad and said: "Are you going to pray behind someone who eats camel meat and then doesnt make wudoo?" Imaam Ahmad replied, "How can I not pray behind Imaam al-Shaafa'ee," and then prayed behind him and did not make up his prayer.

There is a principle in usool al-fiqh called 'al-lawaazim' which allows the person praying behind an Imaam who holds a different opinion to him, to pray behind him on the condition the Imaam believes his opinion is correct and legitimate.

but the understanding of those who wipe over socks has changed significantly and go completely against the usool of Imam Ahmed. The conditions of thickness is no longer considered.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

Prayer of a Hanafi behind another Imam

Font Size

Font Weight