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Protecting one's honour

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Maria al-Qibtiyya, Akaabir
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#76 [Permalink] Posted on 5th June 2014 22:14
I've reported the posts that are not relevant to the topic (there maybe more)

Some deserve to remain deleted, others can be moved to the debates section, but doesn't have to.

Personally, I think let them all stay here "deleted" if anyone wants to retrieve their posts, they can send us a PM.

As of now, any non sense or non related posts in this thread will split away.

Thread will remain unlock for the Daleel, otherwise please don't post here.

If Muadh you do not post the Daleel, which you already did elsewhere, then the statement stands against you as it'll look like you have deflected away and my OP is baseless and I have no argument. Remember, people won't go round the forum looking specifically for that Daleel.


I am obviously taking this thread seriously because I outlined an Alim and compared his answer to a non Alim. All I'm wanting to know is if I was correct in making the assumption in the OP.


Remember, post if it's FULLY related not mixed with T's & C's (Term and Conditions).
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#77 [Permalink] Posted on 5th June 2014 22:58

abu mohammed wrote:
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In compliance to your wishes, posting the same thing the second time.

[12:50] And (when this person went back and told the king about the interpretation of the dream), the king said, .Bring him to me. So, when the messenger came to Yusuf, he said, .Go back to your lord and ask him, What is the case of the women who cut their hands?‘ Surely, my Lord knows well their guile.

Evidence 1 (Defending oneself is necessary):

Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) writes in his Tafseer:

The arrangement and strides of Sayyidina Yusuf (AS) towards establishing his innocence from slanderous defamation teach us that it is NECESSARY to take the appropriate steps to ward off slanderous defamation. This is also mentioned as a desirable trait in Ahadeeth and amongst the beneficial qualities (and outcome) is that people will be saved from backbiting and one’s own heart will be saved from chaos.

There is also a lesson (in this story specifically) that although Aziz knew about the innocence of Sayyidina Yusuf (AS) this tactic of seeking to avert slanderous defamation was also meant to strengthen his belief in Sayydina Yusuf (AS)’s innocence.

A question arises that efforts to avert the slanderous defamation could also be averted after the release so why insist on being cleared first (before release)? A reason for this could be that people would believe the innocence more readily (while still being imprisoned). Furthermore, another reason being that the King and Aziz knew the freedom from imprisonment is one of the most cherished wish and if a person is willing to sacrifice it for the sake of being cleared of slanderous defamation then not only the person is absolutely convinced (beyond doubt) of the innocence but also convinced that it can be proven!

Evidence 2 (Defending oneself is Waajib for those involved in Islamic activties):

Imam Abdul-Wahab Sha'rani (RA) is a Mujtahid Imam of the Shaf'ae Madhab. He has authored many books and one of the most astounding books is لبحر المورود في المواثيق والعهود on Tassawuff. In this book Shaykh (RA) describes the pledges taken by him at the hands of hunderds of Mashaykh and the nature of the pledges.

This isn't a book of Shaf'ae Fiqh although some rulings are discussed in the text.

Shaykh (Maulana) Zafar Ahmed Usmani (RA) was the nephew of Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) and his works are a masterpiece of research and adornment. Upon the request of Mashaykh (during Hajj) Shaykh (Maulana) Zafar Ahmed Usmani (RA) started the work on translation and commentary on this monumental work. He painstakingly compared manuscripts and referenced all the Ahadeeth (commented where necessary).

He specially comments if a Mas'ala is according to Shaf'as Madhab in the book and produce the Hanafi ruling.

Shaykh (Maulana) Zafar Ahmed Usmani (RA) writes extensive notes and footnotes and brings the statement of his Shaykh (i.e. Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA)) and in a footnote discussing the need to avert slanderous defamation explicitly lists on his authority this action being Waajib.

Both Imam Abdul-Wahab Sha'rani (RA) and Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) say that this should be done with the intention to save the people from sin of backbiting.

The distinction here is that this isn't about disagreement but about slanderous defamation and taking the necessary steps to avert it. Even if you have trouble obtaining the book it is clearly and categorically mentioned in Tafsser of Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) that it is "Zaroori (necessary)"

Application:

  1. The issue at Muftisays isn't about me disagreeing with Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai HA)
  2. The issue at Muftisays isn't even about me being a "Jaahil laymen"
  3. The issue here is that both dear and beloved Hazrat Deoband Saheb (Damat Baraktuhum Mudda Fuyuzuhum) aka SeekerofGuidance and Hazrat Akaabir Saheb (Damat Baraktuhum Mudda Fuyuzuhum) are stating that I am lying, twisting and slandering Hazrat (RA) which I swear by the one who holds my life in His Hands I am CATEGORICALLY NOT!

That is a FILTHY SLANDER!

There is every possibility that I am wrong and I have misunderstood, I am human and prone to error but I am MOST CERTAINLY neither lying nor twising nor disrespecting Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai HA) and Allah (SWT) is my witness!

Important!

This is the second time this whole issue has been explained. The first time Hazrat Akaabir Saheb (Damat Baraktuhum Mudda Fuyuzuhum) CATEGORICALLY requested the thread to be closed.

He then simply remembered Imam Abdul-Wahab Sha'rani (RA) and assumed that the ruling was "Shaf'ae". There may be little difference between words but the same evidence has been used the second time.

Agreement?

Even if you ignore a book of Tassawuff and take the widely available Tafseer the word "ZAROORI (NECESSSARY)" can be very easily shown so either way my action most certainly has precedence in Shariah.

I don't expect Hazrat Akaabir Saheb (Damat Baraktuhum Mudda Fuyuzuhum) to agree despite the ability to clearly show the scans from the Tafseer and usage of the words "ZAROORI (NECESSSARY)".

I expect him to twist this around and say that if its NECESSARY for a Jaahil like me then its NECESSITY is compounded in the case of Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA) and this indeed lends more justification to their actions then mine.

 

In short, although I have complied I don't expect much good out of this at all, only bad and more persistence and bad blood. I don't even expect recognition that this is the 2nd time I have done this and others can't be questioned, can't be held to the same standards etc.

Jazkallahu Khayran

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#78 [Permalink] Posted on 5th June 2014 23:05
Abu Muhammad, sorry was calling you maulana. I thought all admins are maulanas. Admins or authorizers I reckon both have similarity in meanings.

I also take this topic seriously for reasons I just mentioned. If it is waajib to defend ones honour and one decides to let it go then it equates to sinning which leads to the person becoming a faasiq which inturn disqualify him from being a witness and being an imam.

As an example lets suppose i have company and someone calls me a terrorist or abuses me me infront of people because of my get up. I have two options either ignore him and move on OR I can defend my honour by engaging him. If it is waajib then I have no choice other than defending my honour. If I dont I will be a faasiq. This is just an example may be a bad one but depicts what im thinking thus why I want a fatwa or daleel (of bayaan ul quran) for the statement of wujoob.

Another thing id like to state is in the original thread requesting the daleel I remember that daleel was given for preferable and desirable hence my request for closure of thread. This is what I recollect. I may be wrong. All I request is to please fetch the relevant post from that thread and post it here once again. It is such a small request that deserves compliance in my humble thought.

The posts on this forum who's intellectual property is it? The forum's or the user's?
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#79 [Permalink] Posted on 5th June 2014 23:21
Removed posts can only be brought back by the admins. (see, there is a difference) :)

Quote:
As an example lets suppose i have company and someone calls me a terrorist or abuses me me infront of people because of my get up. I have two options either ignore him and move on OR I can defend my honour by engaging him. If it is waajib then I have no choice other than defending my honour. If I dont I will be a faasiq. This is just an example may be a bad one but depicts what im thinking thus why I want a fatwa or daleel (of bayaan ul quran) for the statement of wujoob.


As you rightly said, this is a bad example. By engaging in this situation, you are putting your life at risk. Which is more of a wujoob?

If Maulana can send you your posts back, please re post them here.


For me, Muadh has replied. Do you accept it or reject it in context of this thread and your first statement of defending one's honour is not wajib?

If yes or maybe, then my post stands valid and Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi's opinion can be used the same way Mufti AS Desai used it.
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#80 [Permalink] Posted on 5th June 2014 23:22

Akaabir wrote:
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All you need to understand in plain and simple English is this:

  1. I DO NOT disrespect Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA)
  2. I DO NOT hate Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA)
  3. I DO NOT lie about Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA)
  4. I DO NOT slander Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA)
  5. I DISAGREE with Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA)
    1. I have told him about it
    2. He has granted me permission to continue and here is the Fatwa to prove it
  6. WHEN I have used anything disrespectful towards Shaykh (Mufti) A. S. Desai (HA), I apologised to him about it directly and I sought forgiveness of Allah (SWT), there are multiple brothers who are witness to this

All of the above I swear by Allah (SWT) is TRUE to the best of my human endeavour and ability.

You are committing a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR Haram by bringing issue which you are neither witness to, nor have any right to and here is the Fatwa to prove it.

Worst case scenario:

Let’s say that whatever I have said above is an absolute and blatant lie and I am committing a sin. It still doesn’t justify you committing a sin in Islam simply because I am committing a sin!

If you want to place your Aakhira on a bet against me, go ahead but when we meet in front of Allah (SWT) don't blame and don't say that I didn't categorically state very clearly.

Jazakallahu Khayran

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#81 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 00:09
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JazakAllah khair brother muadh khan for posting the information it has been enlightening for me. I guess if the term mazanna e tuhmat was mentioned it would not have been such a long debate. The context of hazrat thanvi ra is actually saving your self from mazanna e tuhmat which is slanderous assumption in the mind of your brother about you. It is proven from the incident in hadith when Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wasallam was talking to his wife and a sahabi passed by. Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wasallam explained that this is my wife to save the sahabi from developing a bad thought. This is basically to save your brother from doing badgumani of you. JazakAllah khair. Aamanna wa saddaqna. Sam'ena wa ata'na. I accept it without any hesitation.

As for the second point you touched. I just make dua Allah azza wa jal shows you where you are mistaken. The lies you took yameen on one of them is as follows taken from brother deoband's blog comment:

*****
Mufti Desai had written a refutation against Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah based on the book of a deviant 'Shaykh' called Abdullah Harari. Someone subsequently brought it to Mufti Desai's attention the fact this person and his group, the Ahbash, were complete deviants.�

Regarding this incident, Muadh produced the following blatant slander:�

ANOTHER SLANDER BY MUADH:�
************************************************�
"When the issue was brought to his attention instead of saying that yes I made a mistake and I mistook the group he went on to normal offensive (and foul) mode."�
************************************************�
END OF SLANDEROUS QUOTE�

Readers and admins are requested to ponder over the above slander and ask what kind of horrible impression it is designed to give, and what kind of 'love and respect' and 'disagreement' such a statement falls under.�

After, reading and pondering over Muadh's slander, respected readers and admins are requested to read Mufti Desai's actual reply to the person who brought Abdullah Harari's deviance to the attention of Mufti Desa:�

ACTUAL REPLY OF MUFTI DESAI�
************************************************* "Respected Brother,�

Your e-mail dated 1 May 2013 refers.�

I sincerely thank you for the information. May Allah Ta'ala reward you abundantly. Jazaakallaah. I was not aware of all the evil and deviation related to the sect pointed out by you. I am therefore, grateful for the information.�

However, our criticism of Ibn Taimiyyah is not based on entirely what Al-Harari says about him. Our criticism is based on the statements of Ibn Taimiyyah himself, and on the views and claims of other reliable senior Ulama.�

May Allah Ta'ala keep you with aafiyat."�
************************************************* END OF REPLY BY MUFTI DESAI
*****

I leave off this argument with some thoughts which may be helpful to you. Quraan is a source of guidance for the whole humanity yet quraan can lead people astray. Allah azza wa jal himself has expressed this in the quran. Yudhillu bihi katheeran wa yahdi bihi katheera ~ surah baqarah. Allah azza wa jal guides many through quraan and leads many astray through it. Work of deen can be compared to this.

For a decade and more you have been refuting others while forgetting yourself completely
The brief exchange of conversation with you has opened up on your personality. Your sincere friends can guide you better.

For the record I am not a mureed of mufti as desai nor his student. I respect him as an alim and I have decided to follow his teachings and implement them in all aspects of my life as I believe him to be an alim of Haqq (mafhoom e mukhalif should not be deduced from this). I was called a bootlicker here. I dont feel Insulted neither hurt. I am proud to say that yes I am a bootlicker hazrat worshiper of an alim e haq rather than be bootlicker of my nafs and shaytaan.

Do you realize the implications of your looswly worded words about an alim e deen. What effects it has on the public. You truly believe that you are serving the deen by disagreeing with every fatwa of mufti as desai that is posted here or anywhere else. Do you believe that if people follow his fatwa they will become gumrah? If not then what need is there to prioritize your refutations of his fatwas and misrepresenting them and in some instances blatantly lying about him (has no research into what he has said...) . What do you gain?

You are repeatedly taking oaths and yameens that you have not lied and not slandered mufti desai. Do you realize how grave this situation is that you cannot even see your errors now. This is what our elders say that the taufeeq of tobah is taken aaway. I suggest you get off the forum., find an offline sincere friend (not your blind forum flock too scared to speak the haqq) and go over the brother deoband's blog with him and ask him sincerely to show you your errors.

I hope and wish this to be my last exchange with you as this endeavour has been very draining spiritually and physically. But I will keep on defending mufti as desai in the future if I see any injustices perpetrated against him.

I have emailed mufti desai specifically regarding this forum and my defense of him. I have asked him about posting on a) the forum b) on just the blog. I intend to fully follow his fatwa whatever it is.

I request your duas and take a leave by citing an incident of how our akaabir defended their honour and then compare it to your aggresive attitude.

Once a buzurg got on the mimbar to make a bayaan. A person stood up and said hazrat I have heard you are an illegitimate child. Hazrat very calmly replied, no you have heard wrong. The witnesses of my parents nikah are still alive you can go and ask them.

The buzurg did not get inti a frenzy saying DO YOU GIVE ME THE SAME RIGHT THAT I CAN ALSO ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION. YOU EMPLOY DOUBLR STANDARD. FIRST SIGN AN AGREEMENT WITH ME THAT YOU WILL ALSO BE LIABLE TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS JUST AS YOU ARE ASKING ME.

And thus waste the whole day in this nonsensical approach.

JazakAllah khair it has been a learning experience for me to converse with you and directly with a few on this forum.

Remember..... SHALLOW PEOPLE HAVE SHALLOW MINDS.
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#82 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 00:18

Akaabir wrote:
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In order to arrive at a Just and Fair conclusion Shaykh (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) stated that a person must hear both sides of the story.

You have heard the story and spin of Shaykh (Hazrat) Deoband Saheb (Damat Barakathum Mudda Fuyuzuhum) would you like to hear my side of the story or is the case done and closed?

Although this matter has NO direct corelation to the issue but I am still replying to you and to also let you know that my comments on the blog have not been authorised or approved for 1 1/2 days. Anticipating your second accusation that I am not replying and running away.

Awaiting your response.

For everyone else:

This is an email correspondence posted on Sunniforum on the 5th of April 2013 to Shaykh (Maulana) Huzaifa (HA) , it isn't directed at me at all. The email directed at me was pretty conclusive in dismissing this matter, in fact here is my email from 06th of May 2014 clearly bringing the topic AGAIN as I was unaware of the matter. Notice the following facts:

  1. The title of thread "Important Announcement"
  2. Notice the venue Sunniforum from where I have been banned for eternity
  3. Notice the assumption that I must have read it although I am banned and the title is not appropriately chosen
  4. Notice the slander based on presumptions 2 & 3.
  5. Notice the amount of space given to my text and the clarification and the space given to slander!

Similar to the episode listed here where both brothers categorically denied any involvement with each other but the title remains and there are no apologies or regrets.  It is in fact justified and lauded as an effort to defend Shaykh (Hazrat) Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA)

Did Harris Hammam Claim to be a Former Jew?

I fully complied with the wishes of Brother Abu Mohammad but I already stated that despite the best of efforts I don't expect things to get better, in fact I expect them to get worse.

Conclusion:

It is CATEGORICAL that I knew nothing about this post on Sunniforum otherwise why would I be posting (still) in May 2014 and trying my best to convince him of the matter?

At best I am guilty of not knowing.

Nevertheless as I said the issue is presumptuous slander and there is no cure for it except Hidaya from Allah (SWT).

I don't doubt that people with such actions get spiritually drained!

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#83 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 00:19
@Akaabir

I was tempted to report the post, but it almost puts many things in perspective, therefore it remains. If brother Muadh has any issues with the above, then he can highlight the specific parts and send them to Maulana Yasin who can either remove them from your post or take actions he believes would be correct.

@Muadh, please discuss that in a different thread, id appreciate it.



Jazakallah to everyone and apologies for sounding harsher than my normal self. :)

Lol = Lots Of Love purely for the sake of Allah.
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