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Inter-madhhab validity

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 30th April 2015 17:03
as-salaamu alaykum
I would like to know if a hanbali muqtadi is following a non hanbali imam and the imam does something valid in according to his madhhab but is invalid in the salaah of the hanbali muqtadi will the salaah of the hanbali muqtadi be valid?

jazaakumullaah
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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 30th April 2015 17:18
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 30th April 2015 17:35
My question is regarding a Hanbaly muqtady and non-Hanbaly imam, in such a salaah where the Imam does something which is valid according to his school and which invalidates the salaah according to the hanbali's school. I'm not really asking about shurut but more arkaan.
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 30th April 2015 19:27
Bismillahi Ta'ala,

The Hanbali Madhab follows the opinion that the consideration of the correctness of Salah depends on the the Madhab of the Imam, and not the Muqtadi.

In this light, as per your question, The following of the hanbali muqtadi of a hanafi Imam who lets say leaves out a wajib act like du'a between sajdatayn, will be valid.

مطالب أولي النهى في شرح غاية المنتهى (1/ 663)
(وَتَصِحُّ) الصَّلَاةُ (خَلْفَ مَنْ خَالَفَ) مَأْمُومَهُ (فِي فَرْعٍ لَمْ يَفْسُقْ بِهِ بِلَا كَرَاهَةٍ) ، كَالصَّلَاةِ خَلْفَ مَنْ يَرَى صِحَّةَ النِّكَاحِ بِلَا وَلِيٍّ أَوْ بِلَا شُهُودٍ، لِفِعْلِ الصَّحَابَةِ فَمَنْ بَعْدَهُمْ ذَلِكَ، فَإِنْ خَالَفَ فِي أَصْلٍ، كَمُعْتَزِلَةٍ، أَوْ فَرْعٍ فَسَقَ بِهِ، كَمَنْ شَرِبَ مِنْ النَّبِيذِ مَا يُسْكِرُهُ مَعَ اعْتِقَادِهِ تَحْرِيمَهُ، لَمْ تَصِحَّ الصَّلَاةُ خَلْفَهُ، لِفِسْقِهِ.

الفتاوى الكبرى لابن تيمية (2/ 320)
سُئِلَ: هَلْ تَصِحُّ صَلَاةُ الْمَأْمُومِ خَلْفَ مَنْ يُخَالِفُ مَذْهَبَهُ؟
أَجَابَ: وَأَمَّا صَلَاةُ الرَّجُلِ خَلْفَ مَنْ يُخَالِفُ مَذْهَبَهُ، فَهَذِهِ تَصِحُّ بِاتِّفَاقِ الصَّحَابَةِ وَالتَّابِعِينَ لَهُمْ بِإِحْسَانٍ، وَالْأَئِمَّةِ الْأَرْبَعَةِ، وَلَكِنَّ النِّزَاعَ فِي صُورَتَيْنِ: إحْدَاهَا: خِلَافُهَا شَاذٌّ، وَهُوَ مَا إذَا أَتَى الْإِمَامُ بِالْوَاجِبَاتِ كَمَا يَعْتَقِدُهُ الْمَأْمُومُ، لَكِنْ لَا يَعْتَقِدُ وُجُوبَهَا مِثْلَ التَّشَهُّدِ الْأَخِيرِ إذَا فَعَلَهُ مَنْ لَمْ يَعْتَقِدْ وُجُوبَهُ، وَالْمَأْمُومُ يَعْتَقِدُ وُجُوبَهُ، فَهَذَا فِيهِ خِلَافٌ شَاذٌّ. وَالصَّوَابُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ السَّلَفُ وَجُمْهُورُ الْخَلَفِ صِحَّةُ الصَّلَاةِ.
وَالْمَسْأَلَةُ الثَّانِيَةُ: فِيهَا نِزَاعٌ مَشْهُورٌ، إذَا تَرَكَ الْإِمَامُ مَا يَعْتَقِدُ الْمَأْمُومُ وُجُوبَهُ مِثْلَ أَنْ يَتْرُكَ قِرَاءَةَ الْبَسْمَلَةِ سِرًّا وَجَهْرًا، وَالْمَأْمُومُ يَعْتَقِدُ وُجُوبَهَا.
أَوْ مِثْلَ أَنْ يَتْرُكَ الْوُضُوءَ مِنْ مَسِّ الذَّكَرِ، أَوْ لَمْسِ النِّسَاءِ أَوْ أَكْلِ لَحْمِ الْإِبِلِ، أَوْ الْقَهْقَهَةِ، أَوْ خُرُوجِ النَّجَاسَاتِ، أَوْ النَّجَاسَةِ النَّادِرَةِ، وَالْمَأْمُومُ يَرَى وُجُوبَ الْوُضُوءِ مِنْ ذَلِكَ، فَهَذَا فِيهِ قَوْلَانِ: أَصَحُّهُمَا صِحَّةُ صَلَاةِ الْمَأْمُومِ، وَهُوَ مَذْهَبُ مَالِكٍ، وَأَصْرَحُ الرِّوَايَتَيْنِ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ فِي مِثْلِ هَذِهِ الْمَسَائِلِ هُوَ أَحَدُ الْوَجْهَيْنِ فِي مَذْهَبِ الشَّافِعِيِّ، بَلْ هُوَ الْمَنْصُوصُ عَنْهُ، فَإِنَّهُ كَانَ يُصَلِّي خَلْفَ الْمَالِكِيَّةِ الَّذِينَ لَا يَقْرَءُونَ الْبَسْمَلَةَ، وَمَذْهَبُهُ وُجُوبُ قِرَاءَتِهَا.
وَالدَّلِيلُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ مَا رَوَاهُ الْبُخَارِيُّ وَغَيْرُهُ عَنْ النَّبِيِّ - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ - أَنَّهُ قَالَ: «يُصَلُّونَ لَكُمْ فَإِنْ أَصَابُوا فَلَكُمْ وَلَهُمْ، وَإِنْ أَخْطَئُوا فَلَكُمْ وَعَلَيْهِمْ» فَجَعَلَ خَطَأَ الْإِمَامِ عَلَيْهِ دُونَ الْمَأْمُومِ.
وَهَذِهِ الْمَسَائِلُ إنْ كَانَ مَذْهَبُ الْإِمَامِ فِيهَا هُوَ الصَّوَابَ فَلَا نِزَاعَ، وَإِنْ كَانَ مُخْطِئًا فَخَطَؤُهُ مُخْتَصٌّ بِهِ، وَالْمُنَازِعُ يَقُولُ: الْمَأْمُومُ يَعْتَقِدُ بُطْلَانَ صَلَاةِ إمَامِهِ، وَلَيْسَ كَذَلِكَ، بَلْ يَعْتَقِدُ أَنَّ الْإِمَامَ يُصَلِّي بِاجْتِهَادٍ أَوْ تَقْلِيدٍ، إنْ أَصَابَ فَلَهُ أَجْرَانِ، وَإِنْ أَخْطَأَ فَلَهُ أَجْرٌ، وَهُوَ يُنْفِذُ حُكْمَ الْحَاكِمِ فِي مَسَائِلِ الِاجْتِهَادِ، وَهَذَا أَعْظَمُ مِنْ اقْتِدَائِهِ بِهِ، فَإِنْ كَانَ
الْمُجْتَهِدُ حُكْمُهُ بَاطِلًا لَمْ يَجُزْ إنْفَاذُ الْبَاطِلِ، وَلَوْ تَرَكَ الْإِمَامُ الطَّهَارَةَ نَاسِيًا لَمْ يُعِدْ الْمَأْمُومُ عِنْدَ الْجُمْهُورِ، كَمَا ثَبَتَ عَنْ الْخُلَفَاءِ الرَّاشِدِينَ، مَعَ أَنَّ النَّاسِيَ عَلَيْهِ إعَادَةُ الصَّلَاةِ، وَالْمُتَأَوِّلُ لَا إعَادَةَ عَلَيْهِ.
فَإِذَا صَحَّتْ الصَّلَاةُ خَلْفَ مَنْ عَلَيْهِ الْإِعَادَةُ، فَلَأَنْ تَصِحَّ خَلْفَ مَنْ لَا إعَادَةَ عَلَيْهِ أَوْلَى، وَالْإِمَامُ يُعِيدُ إذَا ذَكَرَ دُونَ الْمَأْمُومِ، وَلَمْ يَصْدُرْ مِنْ الْإِمَامِ وَلَا مِنْ الْمَأْمُومِ تَفْرِيطٌ: لِأَنَّ الْإِمَامَ لَا يَرْجِعُ عَنْ اعْتِقَادِهِ بِقَوْلِهِ.
بِخِلَافِ مَا إذَا رَأَى عَلَى الْإِمَامِ نَجَاسَةً وَلَمْ يُحَذِّرْهُ مِنْهَا، فَإِنَّ الْمَأْمُومَ هُنَا مُفَرِّطٌ، فَإِذَا صَلَّى يُعِيدُ لِأَنَّ ذَلِكَ لِتَفْرِيطِهِ، وَأَمَّا الْإِمَامُ فَلَا يُعِيدُ فِي هَذِهِ الصُّورَةِ فِي أَصَحِّ قَوْلَيْ الْعُلَمَاءِ، كَقَوْلِ مَالِكٍ، وَالشَّافِعِيِّ فِي الْقَدِيمِ، وَأَحْمَدَ فِي أَصَحِّ الرِّوَايَتَيْنِ عَنْهُ.
وَعِلْمُ الْمَأْمُومِ بِحَالِ الْإِمَامِ فِي صُورَةِ التَّأْوِيلِ يَقْتَضِي أَنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ أَنَّهُ مُجْتَهِدٌ مَغْفُورٌ لَهُ خَطَؤُهُ، فَلَا تَكُونُ صَلَاتُهُ بَاطِلَةً، وَهَذَا الْقَوْلُ هُوَ الصَّوَابُ الْمَقْطُوعُ بِهِ، وَاَللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ.

Ofcourse the above is what their books suggest, to get a proper answer please contact a proper Habali Alim.

Wallahu A'lam
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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 1st May 2015 02:05
Does anyone know a proper Hanbali Aalim?
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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 1st May 2015 09:39
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 1st May 2015 10:05
Quote:
Bismillahi Al-Rahmani Al-Rahim

Praying Behind Followers Of Other Imams
al-salamu `alaykum

Concerning the issue of Hanbalis praying behind non-Hanbalis, Nail al-ma'arib gives the following
If the imam omits [either] an integral or condition that there is disagreement concerning (m: whether it is an integral or not, or whether it is a condition or not) because of [making] taqlid (t: of an Imam) his prayer is valid. (t: But if he did not omit it out of taqlid then the imam and whoever followed him must repeat the prayer.)
And anyone who behind him (t: behind anyone who has omitted an integral or condition) while believing that his prayer is invalid must repeat it.

(t: In the Iqna` and its commentary it says
And if the imam knowingly omits [something that] he alone holds or that he and the followers hold [to be] an integral, obligatory, or a condition, then they both repeat it. But if it is something that the follower alone believes [to be an integral, obligatory, or a condition]--such as a Hanbali following someone who

(1) touched their penis [with their palm or the backside of their hand --musa]
(2) neglected to cover one of their shoulders or becoming motionless during prostration [tum'aninah], or the like
(3) [omits] saying Allahu akbar when moving [from position to position]
out of making taqlid of someone who does not consider these to invalidate [the prayer]--then neither the imam or the follower needs to repeat the prayer. And similarly, if a Shafi`i were to pray before the [mosque's] assigned imam does so, it is valid for a Hanbali to pray behind him.
End of quote [from the Iqna`])

It is not permissible to rebuke matters [based on] ijtihad (t: meaning the issues for which there is no evidence that clearly must be acted according to [laysa fiha dalil yajib al-`aml bihi wujuban zahiran], such as a rigorously authenticated hadith that is not opposed by another hadith of the same category.)
(Dalil al-talib with commentary from Nail al-ma`arib, 1.178)


Readers of Sheikh Nuh Keller's translation of Muhammad Naqib al-Misri's Shafi`i class Umdat al-salik wa `uddat al-nasik now know the details for Sheikh Nuh `Ali Salman's commentary
(f12.29) It is valid for a Shafi`i to follow the leadership of an imam who follows a different school of jurisprudence whenever the follower is not certain that the imam has omitted an obligatory element of the prayer, though if certain the imam has omitted one, it is not valid to follow him. The validity is based solely on the belief of the follower as to whether or not something obligatory has been omitted.

(N: One should mention the position of the Malikis and Hanbalis here, which is that the criterion for the validity of following the imam is the imam's school of jurisprudence, such that if his prayer is valid in his own school, it is permissible to follow him as imam. How close this is to the spirit of the Law, which strives for Muslim unity.)
(The Reliance Of The Traveller, f12.29)
A nd Allah knows best.

wa al-salamu `alaykum
--musa


www.abc.se/home/m9783/ir/h/index.html

Please clarify the authenticity of this site with others please, Wallahu Alum.
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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 1st May 2015 12:50
jazaakallaahu Abaa haajira and Abaa Muhammad for your responses. Do you know if Shaykh-ul-Islaam's aqwaal are raajih in the Hanbali madhhab?
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