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Mechanical Slaughter

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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 13:02
brooklynyte4ever wrote:
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I think he was being sarcastic. lol.
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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 13:03
brooklynyte4ever wrote:
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The brother was speaking metaphorically, hence the comments thereafter, don't think the brother is talking about himself, just making a general statement of how people generally view issues on topics of halal.

Brother Daywalk3r's posts regarding halal have always been quite strict and positive on ms, Alhumdulillah
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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 13:12
Jinn wrote:
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Salaamualaikum my brother

Here in new york, I heard alot this kind of talk by salafi shaikhs in the past. The funniest one that I ever heard was a brother asking a shaikh if it was ok to eat at any major non Muslim fast food restaurants and the shaikh said yes. Just say bismillah and the meat becomes halal.The brother then asked him if it was halal to eat at Chinese takeout restaurants and the shaikh so no. But why, said the brother. The shaikh said because Chinese are Buddhists. They are not ahle kitaab.
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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 13:14
umar123 wrote:
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Lol ok. My bad.
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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 13:17
Taalibah wrote:
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Jazakullah for clarifying dear sister. I'm relieved to hear that. Sorry if I misunderstood.
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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 13:26
brooklynyte4ever wrote:
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Don't worry, think brother umar123 and myself posted at the same time. I wouldve posted the same as yourself if I wasn't aware.

Yep I think his post definitely needs a disclaimer!
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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 13:32
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Walaikumusalam my brother.

I work a lot in manhattan and in every corner there's a halal food cart. I myself don't trust any of them because of the widespread abuse of the word halal. I personally know a lot of brothers who run these carts for their bosses who are also Muslim but the meat in question is either haram or doubtful. Theres just to many bad stories.the demand for halal is great and attractive but hard to find an honest muslim who wont lie in your face about what he's selling.i never in my life ate at any of these places even though the food looks tempting. Personally, I don't know of any trustworthy halal carts, if i find any I will let you know inshallah.
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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 14:09
brooklynyte4ever wrote:
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thats fine. I do however take offence with "...the meat is just not suitable for Muslim consumption. " thats indirectly questioning his (HA) integrity. He's (HA) taught ilm to hundreds of students for many years (and still does around the country), hence im sure he (HA) fully knows the fiqhi rulings wrt slaughtered meat suitable for muslims. His (HA) level of taqwa wont even allow him (HA) to go near matters of doubt. If you personally disagree thats fine but pls refrain from saying/posting anything that openly questions his (HA) integrity.
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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 14:12

 

Just in case someone reads the post about this ridicolous Salafi Fatwa, here is the answer!

Reading Bismillah and eating the meat!

Some people claim that reciting Bismillah on (any) meat of a permissible meat would it Halal to consume as it is mentioned in a Hadeeth. Simply reproducing the Hadeeth in full debunks the idea and here is the full text

Sayyia 'Aisha (RA) narrated: A group of people said to the Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam), "Some people bring us meat and we do not know whether they have mentioned Allah's Name or not on slaughtering the animal." He said, "Mention Allah's Name on it and eat." Those people had embraced Islam recently. [Bukhari]

Detailed response on eating the meat of Ahlul-Kitaab 

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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 14:16
Daywalk3r wrote:
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That's fine. If we can't agree then we can agree on disagreeing.
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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 14:17
brooklynyte4ever wrote:
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I've heard Salafi scholars say similar. However, they did say that their view is based upon the people of the book from the middle east, who actually practice their religion. But they don't advise it or eat it when in Europe or America.

This is not a general statement for them all.
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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 14:19
with my other (proper!) 'hat' on mashallah its good to see HFA edging away from mechanical slaughter and (maybe) stunning (of poultry...still doing it wrt meat far as i know. Is that correct AbuM?). They still need to increase the number of inspections that they have at certified outlets. HMC have approx 16 inspections per month at each certified outlet compared to HFA's, which far i know/hear, isnt more the a few inspections..in a whole year!. They should also keep an updated list on their website which is updated on a regular (least fortnightly) basis. A local (imam) friend recently attended a event at Noorul Islam Masjid where HFA were invited ....he still wasn't convinced (though acknowledged the improvements being made by them)
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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 14:23
ali wrote:
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I know some Palestinian brothers who say that the Christians back in Palestine recite tasmiyah over the meat when slaughtering so arab ulema over there deem their meat halal to eat. Allahu alim.
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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 14:24
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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd January 2014 14:27

Problems with commercially available western supermarket meat:

Problem 1:

Many citizens of most Western countries no longer truly believe or practise any religion, let alone Christianity. They may be “Christian” by name but in reality many people are Atheists or simply can’t be bothered. Church attendances have been steadily declining. It is foolish to assume that all Western citizens are “Christians”, today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

Moreover, it is also foolish to assume that everybody living in the West is a Jew or Christian; there are plenty of people of other faiths and/or atheists and agnostics in the west.

The ruling of meat slaughtered by “Christians by name” has been recorded from Sayyidina Ali (RA) as Imam Ibnul Hajr Al-Asqalani (RA) records in Fathul Bari (commentary of Saheeh Bukhari)

Rather an authentic report has come from Ali attesting that he prohibited what was slaughtered by some Christian Arabs.  It was reported by Imam Shafa’e (RA) and Abd al-Razzaaq with a rigorously authentic chain of narration from Muhammad ibn Seereen from ‘Abeedah al-Salmaani from Ali that he said: “Don’t eat what the Christians of Banu Taghlib have slaughtered because they have not retained of their religion anything but drinking wine.”

Problem 2:  

In most Western democracies it is against the law to discriminate on religious grounds and to streamline the process of employment most employers do not ask for the religion of the employee. In other words if there was a vacancy for an Engineer then the qualifications/skills/experience of a potential employee will be checked and verified and the religious affiliations are deemed to be irrelevant. Similarly for a slaughterer the necessary qualifications/skills/experience and certifications will be checked and religion will be ignored.

A qualified slaughterer can be a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Atheist, Buddhist and his OR her religion is neither disclosed nor tracked with the meat. It cannot be guaranteed that the slaughterer is indeed a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian.

Problem 3:  

Just because an animal is “Halal” to consume isn’t sufficient and the laughter being a Muslim or from Ahlul-Kitaab isn’t sufficient. Its method of killing must also conform to Islamic Shariah.

The two verses in Surah Al-Maidah (The Table spread, Chapter 5) must be understood together as understood by the Scholars of Islam

 

[5:3] Prohibited for you are: carrion, blood, the flesh of swine, and those upon which (a name) other than that of Allah has been invoked (at the time of slaughter), animal killed by strangulation, or killed by a blow, or by a fall, or by goring, or that which is eaten by a beast unless you have properly slaughtered it; and that which has been slaughtered before the idols, and that you determine shares through the arrows. (All of) this is sin…

[5:5] This day, good things have been made lawful for you. The food of the people of the Book is lawful for you...

Food of the people of the Book becomes a problematic concept as soon as the conditional clause of “إِلَّا مَا ذَكَّيْتُمْ (unless you have properly slaughtered)” is ignored and this matter has been thoroughly discussed previously.

We know of no western country which has legislation requiring the slaughter of animals according to Islamic Shariah, in cause of chicken a partial cut is made by needle like insertions (after stunning) and in case of cattle a cut is made (which may partially cut a blood vessel or may severe the wind pipe) or the neck is cleanly cut off! All forms of slaughters currently employed by Non-Muslims are problematic in one way or another.

Ignoring real and valid doubts?

Issue one:

It is surprising to note that Scholars who deem it permissible to consume the supermarket meat in the west advise to ignore valid and genuine doubts concerning commonly available meat. This is strangely against the practise of Muslim and Sunnah as Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) very clearly advised:

On the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said : I heard the messenger of Allah say : "That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honour, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart." [Bukhari & Muslim]

Issue two:

Moreover Muslims are advised to read Bismillah and consume the meat in case of uncertainty based upon the following narration in Saheeh Bukhari:

 

Narrated 'Aisha (RA):  A group of people said to the Prophet (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam), "Some people bring us meat and we do not know whether they have mentioned Allah's Name or not on slaughtering the animal." He said, "Mention Allah's Name on it and eat." [Bukhari]

The application of this Hadeeth to commercially available meat in the West is factually inaccurate because the slaughterers in this Hadeeth were “New Muslims” as mentioned by Aisha (RA) herself “And these people had just recently entered Islam” as clearly mentioned by Imam Ibnul Hajr Al-Asqalani (RA) in Fathul Bari (commentary of Saheeh Bukhari).

This hadith of ‘A’ishah (RA) is referring to a group of Muslim bedouins who had just accepted Islam. In fact, as stated by al-Baghawi in ‘Sharh as-Sunnah that  Imam Shafa’e (RA) derived from this that the Tasmiyah is not a condition for the permissibility of the meat.

This hadeeth provides evidence that if the slaughterer was a Muslim then it is not required to inquire whether the name of Allah (SWT) was pronounced upon it, rather it should be assumed. This is why Imam Baihaqi (RA) has titled the chapter under which he placed this hadith ‘Whoever Doesn’t mention Allah’s Name and Whose Slaughtered Meat is Permissible.’ [See Ibn at-Turkmani’s ‘al-Jawhar an-Naqiyy ‘ala as-Sunan al-Kubra’ (9/239)]

And Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said in ‘at-Tamhid’: “Indeed, if the Muslim slaughters some meat and it is not known if he mentioned Allah’s Name upon it, there is no problem in eating it, and it is to be assumed that he did so. One should assume nothing but the best about the believer, and his slaughtered meat and hunted game is to be assumed safe to eat.” [Ibn Qudamah in ‘al-Mughni’ (13/77)]

Thus the application of meat slaughtered by new Muslims living on the outskirts of Madinah to meat available in the western supermarkets where the religious affiliation of slaughterer is unknown is nothing but a fallacy!

Issue three: 

The default ruling for the meat is Haram unless conditional clause of “إِلَّا مَا ذَكَّيْتُمْ (unless you have properly slaughtered)” is fulfilled which renders it permissible to consume.

So, what is the default when it comes to the meat of animals before they are slaughtered? The default regarding animals as a whole is that they are halal unless there is a text forbidding them.

However, the default specifically regarding eating the meat of these animals is that it is haram until we are sure that they have been slaughtered properly. So, if doubt is introduced, we go back to the default ruling. This is a very important principle that many who write about the issue of slaughtered meats are heedless of, as they throw out the phrase ‘the default in things is their permissibility’ and ‘certainty is not removed by doubt,’ and they conclude that the default in these doubtful meats is therefore that they are halal. This principle that all of the scholars of Fiqh have confirmed – either implicitly or explicitly – is that the default ruling of animals is that they are haram until it is confirmed that they have been slaughtered properly. And Imam Nawawi (RA) said in Al-Majmu, “This principle is a point of consensus between the scholars, and there is no dispute regarding it,” and he commented (in his commentary of Saheeh Muslim) on the hadith of ‘Adiyy bin Hatim that will be mentioned (if Allah Wills) by saying: “It shows an important principle, and this is that if there is any doubt regarding the method of slaughter of an animal, it is not allowed to eat it due to the fact that the default ruling is that it is forbidden, and there is no dispute on this.”

(The Ruling on Meat Slaughtered In the West by Shaykh Abdullah Azzam Shaheed (RA))

Conclusion:

Thus the commercially available meat in western supermarkets cannot be declared permissible to consume because the identity of the slaughterer is unknown and the method of slaughter does not conform to Islamic Shariah

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