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True position according to Allah

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 15th July 2014 01:45
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umar123 wrote:
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The respected Sheikh (May Allah preserve him upon good) makes sense. In his another video he said something along these lines that instead of arguing, slandering and mocking people from others' sects, we should ignore the minor ikhtilfat and should protect our Islam and Muslims from the kuffar (May Allah destroy them), thats why I've more respect for this Sheikh.

Whilst I'm not denying there're deviants in different groups but we should ignore the minor differences and should refrain from labeling others as deviants, just because we know no different, or were taught one way and not another.

I follow the hanafi madhab but people shouldn't expect me to be 'not doubtful' regarding some matters. There're ikhtilfat among the Ulama even in the same madhhab. The possibility of making mistakes is there. I believe every individual other than the Nabi sallalaho alaihi wasallam is sometimes incorrect & sometimes correct.

Just because a Sufi scholar is wrong in an area or in multiple areas, this does not mean that they are wrong in all other areas and that nothing should be taken from them. This holds true for the Salafi and even Zahiri scholars and their erroneous ways. We are after all humans and are prone to make mistakes now and again. The only humans that never made a mistake are the Prophets alaihs salam.

In essence, what I have come across was that each and every group claims to be following the Qur'an and Sunnah. Whereas in reality the truth sometimes might be at a stark contrast to this claim. There are flaws in every sect (even in the sect of those of us that claim to be sunni, deobundi, Hanafi etc. believe it or not!) The difference is that some sects are more closer to the truth some are less.

So, The Muslims who are sincere, no matter what sect they're in, will Insha Allah get Jannah!
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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 15th July 2014 15:04
Maria al-Qibtiyya wrote:
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I partly agree. But I beg to differ on your statement that Hanafis have errors. All 4 Madhabs consists of Ahle Sunnah wal Jamah and they all are on the right path. If you are wondering how can it be true when there are opposite rulings for same issue amongst the Madhabs, then let me remind you the hadith in which two groups of sahabah interpreted Rasoolullah (saw)'s command in two opposite ways and Rasoolullah (saw) approved both ways of interpretation.

The 4 Madhaahib are the result of filtering of the Deen through 1000s of the elite scholars of Islam. One person can make a mistake, but according the hadith the mainstream Muslims will be always on the right path. Also difference in opinion inside the Madhab will also come 'inside' the umbrella of valid ikhthilaaf.

Ahle sunnah wal Jamaah is FREE from all kinds of deviancy. If one follows a madhab and does bidah, then one will cease to be from the Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaah.
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 16th July 2014 00:54
umar123 wrote:
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Quote:
But I beg to differ on your statement that Hanafis have
errors.[/quote]

I wish it could be true that Ulama of any of four madhab never made a mistake . But It seems impossible. I too believe Ahlus sunnah is on the right path but no one is infallible other than Muhammad (s.a.w.)

In a madhab same methodology is being applied to derive any madhabi rulings by the Ulama, then still differences occur among them, isn't this due to the 'personal' understanding and intellect of the Ulama? Then how is it possible that Ulama can never make mistakes?

Quote:
If one follows a madhab and does bidah, then one will cease to be from the
Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaah


With all due respect, even you had at least on one occasion condemned a Mufti in another thread. I don't think you consider him to be not from the Ahluls sunnah. You did so because you think the Mufti makes mistakes. Right?

[quote]Also difference in opinion inside the Madhab will also come 'inside' the
umbrella of valid ikhthilaaf.


Could I have one thing clarified please?
If the difference among the Ulama are valid ikhtilafat, then the
question that comes to mind is, why do the followers of the same madhhab argue over these ikhtilafat?

Akramak Allahu bi-Ramadan.
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 16th July 2014 01:58
I think what sister Maria is trying to say is that there are minor errors in fiqh of the four madhabs. This is true, in fact it is inevitable considering the massive amount of ikhtilaaf there is in matters of fiqh. Some positions of some madhabs have to be incorrect. This is why the etiquette between the four madhaahib when dealing with ikhtilaaf is the following:

We are right with the possibility of being wrong, and you are wrong with the possibility of being right


However, the actual correct position (and knowing who is correct and who is wrong) can only be known on the day of judgement. In this dunya, we can all be satisfied with knowing that differences of opinion (especially in matters of fiqh) are okay, and even a wrong opinion reached by a mujtahid will be rewarded.

As for any deviance (in matters of `aqeedah or otherwise) within the four madhabs, then it simply does not exist. We are, alhamdulillah, on the haqq. Ikhtilaaf is not deviance, its an inevitability.



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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 16th July 2014 06:03
Maria al-Qibtiyya wrote:
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You still haven't got my point. One person can go wrong, but a whole Madhab cannot go wrong. Thats why a Madhab is the opinion of thousands of scholars not one person. You will surprised by the number of opinions of Imam Abu Hanifa رضي الله عنه not taken in the Hanafi Madhab or the number of opinions of Imam Shafi'i not taken by the Shafi'i madhab.

Also an ulema making a 'mistake' in fiqh after ijtihad does NOT make him a deviant. But rather faulty Aqeedah makes you deviant.

P.s. No man other than the Nabi (saw) is infallible, but the hadith specifically mentions that the mainstream Muslims will be on the right path. The Mainstream Muslims are the Sunnis, the Sunnis consist of the 4 Madhabs.
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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 16th July 2014 09:28
umar123 wrote:
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Quote:
One person can go wrong, but a whole Madhab cannot go wrong.[/quote]

I don't say the four madhahib are wrong.
what I want to say, like any humans Ulama make mistakes - Doesn't mean I'll discredit their ways as a whole.

I know Ahlus sunnah is on the right path, but I hold the same sentiments... back in SF, a respected brother, who's opinion regarding the matter I trust, had dealt with this issue of 'mujtahid making mistakes' and it was crystal clear to me that Mujtahids do make mistakes but they will still be rewarded if they are sincere and tried their utmost to derive religious rulings.

I'm sorry, I read my comments made up until now, once more, I fail to find where I'm wrong.

I pray that I have made myself clear.

Umar123 wrote:
Also difference in opinion inside the Madhab will also come 'inside' the
umbrella of valid ikhthilaaf.

[quote="Maria"]
Could I have one thing clarified please?
If the difference among the Ulama are valid ikhtilafat, then the
question that comes to mind is, why do the followers of the same madhhab argue over these ikhtilafat?



I'm not denying the ikhtilaaf might be valid ikhtilaaf, but I really want to know the answer to this question. Even on this forum there were arguments due to the differences of opinions of Ulama, I didn't mention names so that no dialogue broke out here, but seriously why do people argue if ''all'' kinds of differences inside the madhhab amongst the Ulama are valid differences?

Arslan. wrote:
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Exactly.

Jazakallahu khairan.
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 16th July 2014 10:41
Maria al-Qibtiyya wrote:
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As I mentioned earlier, remember the hadith which mentions the 2 groups of sahabah who had 2 opposite interpretation of Rasoolullah (saw)'s command. But both were right.

As for people siding with 'one' alim and arguing for his part are narrow minded fools, who do not have the heart to accept that deen has more than one right way of doing things in valid ikhtilaafi issues(not issues that are clear). That was the reason why I flipped out in sf when a member 'tried' to prove that shafi'i madhab is on the wrong path in the matter of beard. Even though I got angry I never argued that hanafi's are wrong. Because I firmly believe both opinions are correct, all we laymen have to do is Taqleed.

Also as I mentioned, even after ijthihad a single alim can go wrong. Thats the reason why the Madhab is not made up of the opinion of a single alim, rather it is made up of the best opinions of the top Mujtahids within the madhab. So there is 'space' to rectify the mistake a single alim. Basically the rulings of a Madhab are the 'best' rulings done by the scholars of that madhab and weak rulings are discarded, so basically there is no chance for erroneous rulings.

I ll explain it to with the example of the Shafi'i Madhab. A few centuries after Imam Shafi'i, the shafi'i madhab was filled with different rulings for the same issue. Then came Imam Ramli and Imam Nawawi who had the reached a level to 'sieve' out the weaker opinions and establish the rajih (strong) opinions with in the madhab. This was again done by Imam ibn Hajar al Haytami and Imam Rifai later on. I think the last time this was done in the Hanafi Madhab was by ibn Abideen(not sure). May Allah be pleased with them all.

So basically there is a 'filtering' process with in each madhabs, which sieve out the weaker opinions and come out with the strongest opinion.


Now you might be thinking how about difference between madhabs. Thats a due to the difference in usool (methodology) of deriving a ruling. Each madhab has a valid usool so even if the end result is the different they are all valid. Since the Madhabs have mujtahids within them to sieve out weaker rulings done by their own ulema.




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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 16th July 2014 11:01

umar123 wrote:
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My teacher used to say:

  1. The whole of Hanafi Madhab is contained within Islam
  2. The whole of Islam is NOT (necessarily) contained within Hanafi Madhab

I have tried to put the point as succintly as I can but translation doesn't do Justice!

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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 16th July 2014 11:50
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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True.

Best example is :
1. Not raising hands during salah is a sunnah within Islam
2. Rafa yadein is a sunnah within the boundaries of Islam(shafi madhab) but not inside the Hanafi Madhab.
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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 17th July 2014 00:50
umar123 wrote:
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Quote:
I ll explain it to with the example of the Shafi'i Madhab. A few centuries after Imam Shafi'i, the shafi'i madhab was filled with different rulings for the same issue. Then came Imam Ramli and Imam Nawawi who had the reached a level to 'sieve' out the weaker opinions and establish the rajih (strong) opinions with in the madhab. This was again done by Imam ibn Hajar al Haytami and Imam Rifai later on. I think the last time this was done in the Hanafi Madhab was by ibn Abideen[/quote]

Jazakallahu khairan for giving the example.

Quote:
So basically there is a 'filtering' process with in each madhabs, which sieve out the weaker opinions and come out with the strongest opinion.


Ohso, do you mean weak opinions exist in none of the four madhahib?

[quote]so basically there is no chance for erroneous rulings.


Not even a single chance?
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 17th July 2014 01:40
Maria al-Qibtiyya wrote:
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Sometimes there are more than one 'valid' opinion within the same Madhab. The strongest is chosen as the 'rajih' ie the official position of that Madhab. Have a in mind an opinion can be weak and still be a 'valid' one. Then there are obscure opinions, which are rejected. I haven't read much into the topic of classification of 'weakness' of an opinion etc. It all comes under usool al fiqh. And it varies from Madhab to Madhab.

Quote:
Not even a single chance?


When you come across such an 'error' kindly share with us.


And Allah Ta'ala knows best.
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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 17th July 2014 11:10
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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 17th July 2014 11:54
umar123 wrote:
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Quote:
When you come across such an 'error' kindly share with us.


When there're multiple opinions, I'd not be able to encompass the evidences to assert my view that which one is erroneous and which isn't.

I can't explain what I actually want to say any better than what I currently have knowledge, time and energy for. I apologise.
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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 17th July 2014 23:34
umar123 wrote:
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Good example. Now, even though both opinions are VALID, there is only one true answer. Rafa yadayn is either sunnah, or its not a sunnah. The actual correct answer cannot be absolutely determined, not until we ask Allah on the day of Judgment or in Jannnah (insha'Allah).

Here is another example.

Hanafi madhab: Siblings DO NOT inherit in the presence of a grandfather.
Shafi'i madhab: Siblings DO inherit in the presence of a grandfather.

Even though the opinions of both madhabs are VALID (since they have been deduced through valid ijtihaad of a qualified mujtahid), there can only exist one right answer. Either siblings can inherit in the presence of a grandfather, or they cannot inherit in the presence of a grandfather. We can't have both. One madhab (either mine or yours) must be incorrect.

Until we ask Allah or Rasulullah (s.a.w.) directly in the aakhirah, I will say that the Hanafi's are correct with the possibility of being wrong, and you will say that the Shafi'is are correct with the possibility of being wrong.

This is all sister Maria is trying to explain. I hope you are now able to grasp this simple concept. Even though multiple opinions may be valid, this does not mean they are all correct. What logically follows is that there are at least a few erroneous rulings in some or all of the madhabs. Nevertheless, the rulings are all valid.

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2014 00:15
Arslan. wrote:
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(salam)

No bro, I think you are wrong in this matter. You very well know the hadith of Banu Qurayza. The 2 group of Sahabah interpreted the same command in two opposite ways and yet both were right. This is the Mercy of Allah in our Deen. In 'some' matters is there is 'space' for different interpretations. Thats why even the Sahabah had ikhtilaaf.

Eg: BOTH Rafa yadein and not raising the hands in salah are sunnah. Because there is evidence that Rasoolullah (saw) did BOTH. Only ikhtilaaf is which is better.

I hope you get what I am trying to say. If not we ll have to agree to disagree.

And Allah knows best.

Wasalaam.
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