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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 21:43
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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 21:57
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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 22:12
thesunnah wrote:
1) Is there any Hadeeth stating we must blind follow a Madhab after a Hadeeth contradicting it has been proven authentic by the classical muhadditheen and an opinion has been derived from this Hadeeth by the salaf of this ummah?


There is a misconception of who the salaf were, my grand parents are of the salaf now. Let's talk about the Khairul Quroon. The best of the best first three generations. And not of the salaf that came let's say 300 years after the Prophet SAW.

The Quran will answer the issue of blind following.
www.abumohammed.muftisays.com/The_Concept_of_Taqleed_in_t...
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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 22:17
Answer to your questions:

1) yusuftracyal-ashrafiyyah.webs.com/blindfollowingsalafis.htm

Also, can you find me a Qur'aan Aayah or Hadeeth that says speaker systems can be used in Masaajid because the practice was to use Mukabbireen to spread the sound of Takbeer beyond the voice of the Imam. You're asking for us to provide a Hadeeth about Madhabs. Either you have no idea what a Madhab is or you're not thinking before you ask your questions.

2) The mistake of a Sahabi is not like the mistake of the Imams. A Sahabi's mistake is rectified by themselves and we learn from it. The Imam use the corrections and the sound Ahadeeth strongest to them bearing in mind all other Ahadeeth chains, time, occasions, rulings, circumstances and state of narrator. What you are comparing and asking has no relevance to Taqleed.

More importantly, no one in the history of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah EVER claimed that the Imam's never made a mistake. Where you get your information is beyond me sorry.

3) Yes, I will repeat that Salafi's do NOT approach learned Ulamaa (regarding Taqleed) from the Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah to fight their case against Taqleed. Blind following Salafi scholars is not what you call approaching Ulamaa.

My question to you, have you read any link or article we have posted about your questions (not general reading, but specific reading on your doubts and questions? ALL the answers are there, I would appreciate it if the member's time was not wasted on the things which are already clearly available.
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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 22:24
Quote:
if we try our utmost to follow the quran and the Sunnah with the understanding of the salaf without allowing our desire to step in the way (and Allaah knows the intentions of everyone) then how can we be blamed for this?


Are you implying that the 4 schools don't get the rulings from Quran and Sunnah. You must be a faqih to follow it your self. Why trouble your self. This work has been done by the khayrul quroon.

www.abumohammed.muftisays.com/The_Strongest_Opinion_1.pdf


www.abumohammed.muftisays.com/The_Strongest_Opinion_2.pdf
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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 29th September 2011 22:36
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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 30th September 2011 00:46
thesunnah wrote:

As for the Salah thing in the summer, I'm not defending them here but I remember when it happend, I actually asked them, they said that one of OUR DEOBANDI MUFTIS in Blackburn and I can't remember his name said it was permissable and also a large number of other scholars said the same thing, the reason to this was not because Isha was too late, but because the twighlight doesn't dissapear hence the time of Isha doesn't actually take place so some level of ijtihaad has to be taken, as far as I remember, a large number of our deobandi muftis gave the same fatwa.


Interesting! although these are facts below, does that really mean we should pray Esha when we want and join it with maghrib, or do you use ijtihad or intellect and continue with a slight delay of the normal esha time to be closer to the more correct opinion, as this only lasts for a few days and then scientifically we have astronomical twilight back. And this is only scientifically proven not with the naked eye.

So for a few days of the year, with the aid of scientific calculations we.can join two.salahs together, since when did this start. Specially when its only for a few days.

This is a query, please don't mis quote.

Other countries have other fataawa suitable for their location. It's not needed here is it?


Longest day of the year last year.

Sunrise/Sunset and associated twilight times for North London on Monday 21 June 2010

Astronomical twilight begins:
Nautical twilight begins: 02:39
Civil twilight begins: 03:54
Sunrise: 04:40
Transit(sunis at its highest): 13:02
Sunset: 21:23
Civil twilight ends: 22:09
Nautical twilight ends: 23:24
Astronomical twilight ends:

www.good-stuff.co.uk/suntimes/


Astronomical Twilight Starts/Ends
Astronomical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 12 and 18 degrees below the horizon. It starts at astronomical dawn, early in the morning when the Sun is higher than 18 degrees below the horizon. From this point, it will be difficult to observe certain faint stars, galaxies, and other objects because the Sun starts to illuminate the sky.

Astronomical twilight ends at astronomical dusk in the late evening, when those faint objects again can be visible because the Sun is lower than 18 degrees below the horizon. In locations north of 4824' N or south of 4824', it never gets darker than this near the middle of the summer solstice (June or December).

Technically, the start and end times are when the true geocentric position of the Sun is 108 degrees from the zenith position, or directly above the observer.

Astronomical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 12 and 18 degrees below the horizon.

Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.

Nautical twilight starts at nautical dawn, at 12 degrees below the horizon, and nautical twilight ends at nautical dusk, when the Sun is lower than 12 degrees below the horizon. For locations north of 5434' N or south of 5434' S latitude, the Sun will never be lower than 12 degrees below the horizon for a period in the summer.

Technically, the start and end times are when the true geocentric position of the Sun is 102 degrees from the zenith position.

Civil Twilight Starts/Ends
Civil twilight is the period when the Sun is below the horizon but its center is less than 6 degrees below. The "Civil Twilight Starts" time is the dawn or civil dawn, with the center of the Sun at exactly 6 degrees below the horizon. Equally, the "Civil Twilight Ends" time is dusk or civil dusk, when the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon in the evening.

During civil twilight, the sky is still illuminated, and with clear weather it is brightest in the direction of the Sun. The Moon and the brightest stars and planets may be visible. It is usually bright enough for outdoor activities without additional lighting.

Near the equator, where the Sun sets and rises in an almost vertical direction, the civil twilight period can last only 21 minutes, a very fast nightfall compared to the much longer periods at southern and northern latitudes. In regions north of 6024' N or south of 6024' S, there will be at least one night when it does not get darker than this.

Technically, the start and end times are when the true geocentric position of the Sun is 96 degrees from the zenith position.
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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 30th September 2011 12:34

"thesunnah" wrote:
Assalaamu'alaikum I spoke to the brother again and asked him why he doesn't speak to learned Ulama, he said he's spoken to a number of the ulama in Saudi Arabia where he studies and said they have numerous evidences to prove their aqeeda, fiqh, hadeeth and manhaj. The difference I find between us and them is that they always have evidence from the Quran, Sunnah and the salaf whilst we tend to only use our interlect and degrade everyone elses telling them that they're not educated enough to understand the Quran that was revealed to an illeterate people. Here are some questions I want you to clarify for me and can you please back it with evidence from either the quraan or the sunnah; 1) Is there any hadeeth stating we must blind follow a madhab after a hadeeth contradicting it has been proven authentic by the classical muhadditheen and an opinion has been derived from this hadeeth by the salaf of this ummah? 2) There is famous hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah in Bukhari and Muslim where he narrated a hadeeth of wudu then gave his explanation of it, from this hadeeth he derived that we wash our hands upto our shoulders instead of our elbows and our feet upto our shins instead of our ankles, my question is; if we can accept that Abu Hurayra made a mistake, why can't we accept that someone whose status is lower than his can make a mistake? 3) The salafis of leswin road mosque do not only have ulama from the hanbali madhab, they have ulama from all four madhaahib whom they consult for their islamic affairs (such as establishing the eid prayer outside, making jam' between magrib and 'isha during the month where the twilight doesn't dissapear, doing mas over cotton socks etc), Ulama that reside in different parts of the world such as saudi arabia, egypt, mauritania, india, pakistan and many other countries, infact their very definition of an alim is completely different to ours, after knowing this, can you (yasin) please explain your statement; "Salafi's never approach or speak to learned Ulamaa in this matter" ? I apologise to our brothers if I have offended them in anyway, please forgive me for my shortcomings for I am a confused student only looking to find the truth.

Asslamo Allaikum Brother,

You are not offending anyone at all by asking questions so feel free to ask what you wish, Insha’Allah and if we know we will answer it otherwise we will excuse ourselves as per the way of the Salaf.

The issue of a ruling in the Madhab contradicting a Saheeh Hadeeth and whether the ruling should be abandoned or not requires some discussion and I would like to put say a few things from my experience over the past few years.

I will try to use specific examples where necessary to make a point.

Firstly this is made into a very simplistic argument when it isn’t. The position is coming from a false premise that the “ruling” from the Madhab is:

  1. agreed upon OR the most strongest one
  2. Based upon pulling a rabbit out of a hat rather than Saheeh Hadeeth (in itself)

Taking the case of Hanafi Madhab there are many rulings and Ulamah have graded them “Dhahir Riwayah” , “Mufta Bihi”, “Shadh” and so on. So first and foremost:

  • Give the exact ruling and its categorisation from the Madhab itself
  • Then give the evidence upon which the ruling is based upon
  • Then give the evidence which contradicts it

Example: Mas'ah on the Neck

An example is “Masah on the Neck” in the Hanafi Madhab. Those who refute the matter calling it Bid’ah state that it is “Sunnah in the Madhab” when it is Mustahab (preferred) based upon disagreement regarding the Authenticity of the evidence. The evidence isn’t free from criticism to make it “Sunnah” but at the same time (collectively) it can’t be discarded.

A number of Hanafi (& Non-Hanafi) Ulamah have classed the evidence upon which this action is based as “Hasan-La-Ghairihi (Good through a separate chain)” and EVEN then the status of the action is Mustahab (preferred) so if a Hanafi does it (backed by evidence) he/she is rewarded but if it is skipped it is NOT censored! It is blatantly wrong to start an argument and issue youtube video after video condemning an action without first clearly stating its status and categorisation.

All of the above conversation simply tells us that Hanafi (& Non-Hanafi) Scholars of Hadeeth have “evidence” and they didn’t pull a rabbit out of the hat to begin with!

Now lets move to the refutation of this action...

To the best of my knowledge there isn’t a single Hadeeth which expressly contradicts this action and what we have is Fataawa of various Scholars so one hand we have:

  • “Hasan-La-Ghairihi (Good through a separate chain)” Hadeeth
  • NOTHING EXPRESS contradicting it

So why is a Hanafi hated for doing acting on Hadeeth? When there is nothing opposite to contradict it?

Example: Shirk in Tashahuud

Shaykh Al-Albani (RA) & Bilal Phillips have declared uttering Reciting the statement: "As-Salâmu 'Alaika [you] Ayyuha An-Nabi" in the Tashahhud” in Salah as Shirk based upon the research of Shaykh Ibn Hajr Asqalani (RA) & Tajud-deen Subki (RA) and based on narrations from the Sahaba (RA) which are disagreed upon!

Hanafees recite “Attahiyaat” based upon clear and unambiguous and Authentic narrations (see point 47)

I believe that Shaykh Uthaymeen (RA) has also refuted Shaykh Al-Albani (RA) on the matter.

Where is he justice in this? Again, the Hanafees are acting on evidence and not pulling a rabbit out of the hat and they have been accused of committing “Shirk”?

Example: Tying the hands directly upon the Chest:

The narrations about placing the hands directly upon the chest are weak, problematic and contradictory not considered as a valid position in any School and Shaykhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (RA) states in Allamah Ibn Taymiyyah’s his commentary on Imam Ibn al-Qudama’s Hanbali fiqh matn entitled ‘Al-Umdah before discussing the evidence:

“And he places them both below his navel, or below his chest without either of them being disliked.

The first position is clearly the ones which Hanafi Madhab adopts.

His student Shaykh Ibn Qayyim (RA) calls placing hands directly on the chest Makrooh!

ويكره أن يجعلهما على الصدر ، وذلك لما روي عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه نهى عن التكفير وهو وضع اليد على الصدر

None of the four Madhabs call for placing hands directly upon the Chest but Hanafees & Hanbalees (a position and see above) both agree on placing it below the Navel but Hanafees are called to task for pulling a rabbit out of the hat and contradicting Authentic narrations!

Example: Going down in prostration and placing hands before Knees:

Shaykh Al-Albani (RA) writes in his famous Salah book that the Sunnah is to place the “hands before the knees” and counts that as the MOST AUTHENTIC POSITION!

Shaykh Ibn Baz (RA) in Salah book (part 11/page 50) says the exact opposite and says, “As for going down on knees before hands when prostrating, it is the better practice based on the Hadith of Wa'il Ibn Hujr (may Allah be pleased with him) in this regard as well as other Hadith to the same effect.” Which is the same position as the Hanafees using the same daleel!

Where is he justice in this? Again, the Hanafees are acting on evidence and not pulling a rabbit out of the hat and they have been accused of praying Salah based on “inauthentic evidence”

Following Authentic Narration or following an opinion?

Majority of my sincere and beloved brothers & Sisters whom I encounter neither have the knowledge (of Arabic) nor the tools to actually research a ruling in the Madhab and to reject it with a Saheeh Hadeeth, they are merely following another Shaykh (or googling around) and this is a MAJOR PROBLEM because in my mind this is highly dangerous situation for a laymen.

To emphasise this point, I quote Shaykh Ayman Khalid who is a Scholar and Moderator on a Salafi foum, before reading keep two things in mind:

  1. Queries are in BLUE and Shaykh (HA)'s replies are in RED
  2. This exchange is from a Salafi forum and answered by a Scholar!

Sorry i dont understand this. If everyone operates within a madhab in simple terms which was the madhab of the prophet saw and the comanions ra?.

This statement is wrongly structured! Four Madhabs follow Quran and Sunnah and you do not ask what is the Madhab of the Legislator!!


I think when people say i have no madhab they mean they follow all 4 and pick the strongest argument from them not that they do not follow any at all because this is where even ahle hadith and salafi scholars get their info from.

There is nothing called I follow the four Madhabs or I follow the strongest opinion. This is surely inapplicable on laypeople because even scholars follow a particular Madhab and in certain topics that they can do Ijtiahd over it, they may take a view that exist in another Madhab other than the one they follow in general.

In simple terms, do not busy yourself about such fruitless topics.

I was talking to a friend who was adamant that we should not deviate from a madhab,

You should not deny on that person. What he does is the best at this era.

it depends on what he means, if he means that a lay person is only to stick to one madhhab, then I don't agree with you on this, because it will cause a lot of hardship on many Muslims, especially non Muslim countries.

What you say is true only in theory but in reality such case never exist. If we hypothetically assuming that one can shift out his Madhab then obviously you will face two issues;

Firstly, shifting out will be due to self-desire as his Madhab does not say what suits him and this is prohibitted.

Secondly, shifting out will be based on statement said by unknown person whose religion and knowledge are unknown to people of knowledge. Keep this in mind while thinking of large laymuslims from madhabs other than Hanbali Madhab who take anyone with a beard and robe who happen to be the imam of a masjid or a musallah as their shaykh or worse as mufti. That said, the only way to control laypeople from following odd views or following their desires can be maintained by following one Madhab and we only encourage them to adopt a view outside their Madhab only when such view is safer. That said, it should be known to all that there is no hardship existing by following one Madhab; never were and never will be.


It is much less hardship if one makes taqlid of any available trustworthy scholars, regardless of which madhhab those shaikhs are upon.

True in theory. But "trustworthy" is vague term today and it is often used to refer to anyone with beard and lead the Salah or maybe studied for couple of years. You should think of such topics on a larger scale because majority of laypeople do not abide by the context of the scholarship that we live and they are unawre of elements that define scholarship in Islam.

In another quote Shaykh (HA) clearly tells laymen of our times to stick to a Madhab!

Taqleed of a Shaykh or Taqleed of Salaf?

In our times a laymen has two choices:

  • Stick to the opinion of someone he/she comes across
  • Stick to the opinion of Salaf

When I read Muwatta Imam Muhammad (RA) at the end of each chapter it clearly states that “This is the opinion of Imam Abu Haneefa (RA)” so in this case I have categorically SECURED myself that I am following the opinion of Salaf and there CAN BE NO CHASTISEMENT on me from Qur’aan & Sunnah.

When a laymen has followed a position from the Salaf he/she has secured his/her Akhira so my request for everyone here would be to secure their Aakhira and not run after a mirage.

Allah (SWT) knows best.

Lets continue this discussion further and if a Scholar is treating you like a child then the cure is to consider another Scholar and not to abandon following the Salaf.

Jazakullah Khairun

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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 30th September 2011 14:41
MashaAllah, very good description brother Muadh. May Allah reward you for your time and effort.
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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 8th October 2011 07:21
Assalaamu'alaikum,

Alhamdulillah I have read many articles on this forum and other websites on strictly following 1 madhab. As part of my quest for the truth, I also sent this thread to one of the teachers at the tarbeeyyah mosque on leswin road, he's replied with a very convincing post, he emailed it to me on word and asked if I could edit it and place it on the forum, i.e. make that which he's written in italics as italics on the forum, and that which he's highlighted the same way on the forum etc. I've taken the time to carry out what the brother asked as to be just, I pray that Allah accepts it from me.

The brother also told me that this would be the first and last time he sends me anything to put onto this forum, he said he's busy with studies and doesn't have much time to waste on a matter he said is as clear as daylight.

The following is what he sent to me:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------





In the name of Allaah, The Most Merciful, The Giver of Mercy

All praises are for Allaah, The Creator of the heavens and the earths, The One who rose over his throne in a manner that suits his majesty, The Most High, The One who Created Adam with his hands, The One who spoke the Quraan to Jibreel, The One who perfected the religion of Al-Islaam, and may the peace and blessings of Allaah be upon our messenger Muhammad the son of Abdullaah, the final messenger, the one who was chosen by Allaah to be followed, and the one who commanded the believers to hold onto his sunnah, and the sunnah of the khulafa ar-rashideen with their molar teeth, and to beware of newly invented matters, for every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in the fire.

Statements of deception, lies and misguidance have been brought to my attention by a brother who is looking for the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh), these lies have been posted on a forum on a website run by schoolboys whom are over praised by their local community and have somehow been given titles such as 'alim', 'mufti' and even as far as 'sheikhul hadeeth' and 'sheikhul islaam'!!

I don't have time to make a detailed analysis of that which has been written but inshaAllaah, I will lightly mention some of the plots of shaytaan as to remove doubts that may have entered into the hearts of the worshippers of Allaah.

Abu Mohammed (an authorizer on the forum) states;
"Apperently, Mufti Saab has said not to go to the Eid Prayer in the Park as it is Fitna. Mixture of male and female. He has requested us not to go or to let the women folk go."


It has shocked me that one of the hanafee so call muftis has made such a comment, the only information the was provided was the leaflet the brothers at Tarbeeyyah published with information typed under it on certain forums, the information clearly states "Fully segregated."

As for the so called mufti, then what he is upon is clear, Allaah states in the quraan;
"we pray and invoke the Curse of Allh upon those who lie"(3:61)
And the prophet (pbuh) was truthful when he said in the hadeeth of Abdullah ibn Amr collected by Bukhari and Muslim;
"Four traits whoever possesses them is a hypocrite and whoever possesses some of them has an element of hypocrisy until he leaves it: the one who when he speaks he lies..."

The reasons to why this so called mufti issued this fatwa can only be broken down to the following;
1- The jealousy and hatred he has towards the brothers at Tarbeeyyah
2- It goes against his own principle that the women should not pray in the masaajid


The first point has been mentioned many times in the quran and sunnah and therefore it doesn't need to be elaborated here, the only thing we could say to this is the statement of Allaah;
"(we seek refuge in Allaah) from the evil of the envier when he envies."(5:113)

As for the second point, then it is known that this is the position of the ahnaaf in regards to women praying in the masaajid, they have the statements of great sahaba such as Umar, 'Aaisha, Ibn Masood and others and the masalah itself is a point of khilaf between the 'Ulama and this is not the time to discuss this, but lying for this reason is fisq and also problematic in many other ways, such as these people allowing their women to go outside in the same area, their wives and daughters have been seen in local shops talking to and rubbing shoulders with non mahram men, sometimes laughing, joking and flirting whilst at the same time beautifying their faces with makeup, and if they wear a niqaab they beautify their eyes with kohl, and even worse than that, they sit in their homes with their brother in laws and relatives, wearing normal clothes just covering their hair when this is more severe as we know from the statement of the prophet (pbuh) in Bukhari and Muslim;
"The brother in law is death"
So to prohibit them from the masaajid because of fear of fitn and fasad but then allowing them to do all of these things is double standards and falls under the great problem of "picking and choosing a ruling to suit your own desires!!"

My advice to this so called mufti is firstly repent to Allaah for what he has done and secondly make a public apology to the brothers at tarbeeyyah for lying and slandering them, if he asks anyone who attended the salah, he will realise how by the mercy of Allaah it was completely segregated, and by the permission of Allaah, the hundreds of people that attended only had good to say.

Yasin (a site admin on the forum) states;
""In one sentence, they say they have full respect for the Madhaahib yet by saying "IF..." they have rejected their works and spat on that respect by saying their work was weak and their sources were not authentic."


This is exactly what he means when he stated;

"When Shaytaan approached the first people, he didn't say "Make false Gods and worship it...""

The way these foolish people work is to try and beautify their speech so the reader takes it in face value, and then rejects anything that opposes it, the prophet (pbuh) spoke the truth in the hadeeth of Ibn Umar in the saheeh when he said;
"indeed from speech is magic"

If we analyse this statement we will come to know the methodology of these people, how by saying "IF" have we rejected the works of the ulama and spat on the respect we give them, this is only the case if you claim that these ulama are perfect, it seems that you defend the ulama of the ahnaaf more than you defend the prophet (pbuh) and his companions, by saying Abu Hurayrah made a mistake in the hadeeth of wudu, or saying Ibn Umar made a mistake in rinsing his eyes out, or by saying Abu Bakr made a mistake when he tried to interpret a dream, or by saying that Ibn Abbas made a mistake in inheritance, is this equivalent to rejecting them and spitting on them, obviously it isn't, all of these companions were humans and if they made mistakes, then those who are not sahabah are more vulnerable to making mistakes!!

What you fail to realise is that any opinion our ulama do tarjeeh of has been backed by a number of the salaf, and by salaf I mean the first three generations, Imam Ibn al-Qayyim said;
"know that any statement or action that has been said and has not been preceded by the salaf of this ummah is corrupted and rejected."

Just because you're jaahil and don't know who from the salaf had a certain opinion we make tarjeeh of, you claim that we follow our desires and come forth with strange opinions that were not mentioned, this is the problem when you focus so hard on one madhab, it narrows your vision and therefore you're unable to comprehend that other opinions in the time of the salaf were present.

The four madhaahib are not the only sources where you find the statements of the salaf, are you forgetting about the madhaahib of Sufyan bin Uyayna (d.198), al-Hasan al-Basri (d.110), Sufyan ath-Thawri (d.161), al-Awzaa'ee (d.157), al-Layth (d.175), Abu Thawr (d.240), Dawood adh-Dhahiree (d.270), Ishaaq bin Rahaway (d.238) and many others from the salaf? Do you even know that parts of their madhaahib have been preserved? If they had an opinion that goes outside the four madhaahib, does it mean they had great disrespect for the ulama of the four madhaahib? Does it mean they were picking and choosing an opinion that suited them? How jaahil have you people become.

If we go according to the statement you made, how can you say touching a woman doesn't break wudu? do you not realise that you claim to respect the four madhaahib, but here you have totally rejected the works of the shaafi'eeyyah and spat on the respect you claim you have for them, how ridiculous does this sound? You have followed ulama that made tarjeeh of the opinion that it doesn't break wudu, likewise we follow ulama from the salaf that appear to have the strongest evidence in this mas-alah to say that wudu doesn't break, what's the difference between what we have done here and what you have done?

You (Yasin) then stated in the same post;
"Firstly, we do not follow a Madhab as a guideline as they are rulings. Rulings are not guidelines. All the rulings in each school of thought is backed by Qur'aan, Hadeeth and research which we nowadays can only dream of."


Yes, they are backed by Quran, Hadeeth and research, but you're failing to mention that some of them have used weak ahadeeth and at times fabricated ahadeeth (according to the muhadditheen of the past) and others have used authentic ahadeeth, also some have misinterpreted ahadeeth whilst others haven't, if you're to say that in all the khilaafat between the salaf, all of the opinions are correct, what are you saying about the shari'ah of Allaah, that he doesn't know how to legislate? I seek refuge in Allaah from a people like yourself. Is it possible that touching a woman breaks wudu for some and not for others? There definitely has to be a correct opinion and that's what the true ulama do, they analyse the evidences and come to a conclusion that has been made at the time of the salaf.

As you know, the evidences are readily available nowadays, by a click of a button you can find every hadeeth and athar that has been collected, and by the click of another button, you can find the statements of all the major muhadditheen and fuqaha on each hadeeth and each mas-alah, and by another click of a button, you can find the reasons of khilaaf between the salaf on all masaail with their evidences, Allaah has made it easier especially in this time to come to a conclusion and find the correct opinion, but yet we still have ignorant people calling to complete blind following.

You (Yasin) then stated in the same post;
"this "IF" sentence is a stepping stone for laymen to make their own judgements and rulings on their own understandings thinking they have the stronger source."


Who said the layman is going to make ijtihaad? They follow an aalim that they deem to be reliable until they increase in knowledge and are able to distinguish between the statements, as Imam ash-Shatibi mentions in his muwafaqaat, that the people are three different types, the mujtahid, the muqallid and the talib al-ilm.
The mujtahid is the one who makes ijtihad and gives fatwa when necessary, the muqallid is the complete jaahil that has to follow the mujtahid because he doesn't know enough to distinguish between halal and haram, and the taalib al-ilm is the one who understands the evidences and can use the statements of the scholars to settle on an opinion and practice it.

No one is calling the layman to do ijtihaad, this is prohibited and known amongst our people, it's a misconception that your so called muftis spread to deter people from following the way of ahlus sunnah!

You (Yasin) then stated in the same post;
"In fact, this has already started with Salafis doing Masah on cotton socks which has never been done in the past."


This as mentioned before is from your narrow minded ignorant self, because you're jaahil and so are the rest of your schoolboys, it doesn't mean if you haven't heard of something, it doesn't exist, maybe you haven't read the opinion of Umar, Ali and many other sahabah on this issue, I will elaborate on this point towards the end of this article inshaAllaah!!

Abu Mohammed states in the following post;
"All 4 Schools accept the each other, however, has any of them tried to defame the other, NO!. But know, the Hanbali school has been hijacked and now the schools are being defamed."


Is that why the madhaahib went through great trials, how a shafi was prohibited from marrying a hanfi and vice versa, how in the haram in Makkah, there were four different congregations with each madhab having its own Imam, there are many examples like this. a'oothubillaah you liar!! How can you say they accept each other? how can anyone even have the audacity to lie like how you've done and claim they never defamed each other? go and check the history of the madhaahib and the problems they had, you think lying like this will convince your followers, remember Allaah said;
"we pray and invoke the Curse of Allh upon those who lie"(3:61)

Abu Mohammed states in the following post;
"IF, can you please kindly name me one scholar who is in the position of doubting that IF or is even ABLE to do so. There are no Muhaddith, Mujtahid Imams around, so who will investigate the IF's and who is remotely even ABLE"


Alhamdulillaah at least you acknowledge the fact the you have no muhadditheen and no mujtahideen around, again reemphasising the point I made earlier on how all of your masakeen schoolboys have been over praised with titles they nowhere near deserve.

As for muhadditheen, fuqaha and mujtahideen in this day and time, then alhamdulillaah there are many around in Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, Egypt, Morocco, India, Pakistan, Yemen and many other countries, they just don't happen to be 'blind following Asians' so you haven't come to know of them, I will elaborate on this a little later inshaAllaah.

Abu Mohammed states;
"I also mention in some that this is a family thing, so I am closer to them than you think. That too of leswin road. Allah has given you the chance to speak to some, I am closer to some than that. I am not making accusations, I speak from what I see and get told, its not made up. I am a neighbour, friend, and relative of various brothers that attend there. Their intentions are good, just confused according to ulama."


Oh miskeen!! You've never come and spoken to myself or as far as I know, any of the other brothers that teach in the masjid? Are you closer to the brothers than us? You're full of lies and as for your "ulama", you mean your schoolboys, they're not qualified and so confused as it is in the first place, you can't rely on blind following schoolboys to tell you what's right and what's wrong!!

Abu Mohammed states in the same post;
"I recommend Mufti Abdur Rahman at Masjid e quba, he is qualified enough to pass judgement."


Ajeeb!! First you say there are no mujtahid imams around and then you say this jahmi deviant is qualified to pass judgement, seems that your whole lives revolve around contradictions, if you're within your madhab then you contradict the sunnah in many masaail and if you're talking generally you contradict yourself, Allaahul musta'aan.

Abu Mohammed states;
"the Salafied Hanbali according to others as they are not on the Fiqh or aqeedah of imam ahmed"


What do you know about the fiqh and 'aqeedah of Imam Ahmad, this is a light discussion of fiqhi issues but if the chapter of 'aqeedah was to open, you filthy jahmis would be exposed, Imam Ahmad never degraded Allaah and neither did any of the others, you people are drowning on a ship full of bida' and mashaakil, problems and differences in fiqh can be overlooked at times, but problems in your 'aqeedah will never be overlooked by ahlus sunnah, you people have fallen into tahreef, ta'teel, ta'weel and tamtheel in the asmaa and sifaat of Allaah and therefore have major problems in your deen, Allaah is free from what you say and so are the salaf who you claim you follow, this ummah will split into seventy three groups and only one will go to jannah, they are ahlus sunnah, the religion that gives Allaah his rights and affirms for Allaah that which he and his messenger (pbuh) have affirmed for Allaah, and they negate that which Allaah and his messenger (pbuh) negate for Allaah, Ibn Al-Qayyim mentiones in his nooniyyah on how you do tahreef of the asmaa and sifaat of Allaah by adding letters in places and removing them in others, you have followed the ways of the jews as mentioned in the hadeeth of Abi Sa'eed collected by Bukhari and Muslim where the Prophet (pbuh) said;
"Surely, you will follow the ways of those nations who were before you in everything as one
arrow resembles another, so much so that even if they entered a hole of a sand-lizard, you would enter it." They said, "O Allah's Messenger! Do you mean to say that we will follow the Jews and the Christians?" He replied, "Whom else?"


The jews played around and distorted the texts the same way your people have done with the quran and the sunnah, your only way to success is to repent to Allaah and follow the way of the salaf!!

How dare you accuse us of not being on the 'aqeedah of Imam Ahmad, have your read "sharh 'itiqaad ahlis sunnah" by al-Lalakaaee? Maybe you need to go and read what the 'aqeedah of the salaf were, your people have confused you and are driving you closer to the fire of jahannam!!

Yasin states;
"Salafi's never approach or speak to learned Ulamaa in this matter. I have experienced this for years."


And you said in another post;

"Yes, I will repeat that Salafi's do NOT approach learned Ulamaa (regarding Taqleed) from the Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah to fight their case against Taqleed. Blind following Salafi scholars is not what you call approaching Ulamaa".

What have you experienced? You think you're from the Ulama, you're a little miskeen blind following schoolboy who can't even distinguish between right and wrong, and your so called ulama are not classified as ulama, you think if you read a few ahadeeth from the saheehayn and the sunan you become an 'aalim, you're the biggest jahil around, we have sat with and studied with ulama you can only dream of studying with, many of your so called ulama and muftis who graduated from UK and South Africa have come to madinah, makkah and Riyadh and sat in the circles of the greatest scholars of our time, they've sat in the fiqh circles of Sheikh Muhammad Mukhatar ash-Shinqiti (the famous Mauritanian scholar), the hadeeth circles of Sheikh Abdul Muhsin Al-Abbaad who by the mercy of Allaah, recently completed teaching kutub as sitta from memory with the asaaneed in masjid an nabi over a period of just under 30 years, 'aqeedah circles of Sheikh Abdul Aziz ar-Rajihee, Sheikh Abdullah al-Ghunayman, Sheikh Abdurrahman bin Nasir al-Barrak, and when I asked these brothers what they thought of these ulama as compared to their teacher in UK and elsewhere they said, "we've never seen anything like this before, our teachers in UK are nothing compared to these guys, this is what you call 'ulama and mujtahideen", these brothers named many of their teachers and from amongst them were Abdurraheem limbada and Abdurrahman Mangera, they classify them as NOTHING compared to these guys and alhamdulillaah by the permission of Allaah, they have changed their ways completely in 'aqeedah and no longer blind follow the hanafee madhab.

So when you say we don't speak to learned ulama, the truth is that you don't speak to learned ulama because you have no ulama, you follow your desires and over praise laymen and call them ulama and mujtahideen, why should we approach your laymen when alhamdulillaah we have the biggest ulama around?

Abu Mohammed states;
"If leswin road follow the Hanbali school, why did they do Eid on the same day as Saudi Arabia. The Hanbali rule is very clear on that"


This statement can only be said by a blind follower, just because you blind follow your madhab, it doesn't mean we blind follow ours, read the statements of the great Imams, not a single one of them encouraged anyone to blind follow them, in fact they rebuked those that did and warned those to come not to fall into that mistake.

Yasin states;
"ALL the answers are there, I would appreciate it if the member's time was not wasted on the things which are already clearly available"


How many times have you and your schoolboys deceived and lied on this thread let alone what you're spreading in these corrupt articles calling people to leave the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh), for someone who sees both sides of the arguments with an open mind has no choice but to turn to the quran and sunnah, you people have nothing when it comes to clear evidence from the quran and sunnah, you have been deceived by the shaytaan!!

Abu Mohammed states;
"This work has been done by the khayrul quroon."


Statements like this tell us how much you really know about us, as mentioned earlier, all of our opinions can be traced back to the salaf (khayrul quroon) of this ummah, you people do nothing but talk from your desires.

Seifeddine-M states;
"The followers of the Salafi sect are the only people who consider masah on ordinary socks valid, Sounds like 'blind following' of desires going on here."


The prophet (pbuh) said in the hadeeth of Ibn Umar collected by Bukhari and Muslim;
"people will take as their leaders ignorant people who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge, so they will go astray and will lead the people astray."

As mentioned before, it doesn't mean because you're jahil and haven't heard something, it doesn't exist, the only people that follow their desires are people like yourself, when you find something from your madhab contradicting the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh), you leave the sunnah and follow your desires clinging onto the weak opinion of your madhab.

I don't have time to thoroughly discuss masah on ordinary socks so I'll provide a few evidences so the reader can accept that this is what the prophet (pbuh) and the sahabah were upon;

It has been narrated in the hadeeth of Thawban collected in the musnad of Ahmad and the sunan of Abi Dawood where he says;
"The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) sent out an expedition. They were affected by the cold. When they returned to the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) they complained about this, he commanded them to wipe over their turbans and socks."

Biha ad-deen al-maqdisi mentions in his kitab "al-'Uddah sharh al-'Umdah" that Imam Ahmad said; "Masah over the jawrabayn has been mentioned by seven or eight of the companions of the prophet (pbuh).

Ibn al-Mundhir narrates masah over al-jawrabayn on nine of the companions of the prophet (pbuh), he narrates it on 'Ali, 'Ammaar, Abu Mas'ood al-Ansari, Anas, Ibn Umar, al-Bara, Bilal, Abdullah bin Abi Awfa and Sahl bin Sa'd.

Abu Dawood adds to the nine and narrates it on Abu Umaamah, 'Amr bin hareeth, Umar and Ibn Abbaas making it a total of 13 sahaba.

It was also narrated that an-Nawawi said in his majmoo',
"Our companions said that it had been narrated that 'Umar and 'Ali used to say it was permissible to wipe over socks, even if they were thin, this was also narrated on Abu Yusuf, Muhammad, Isaaq and Daawood."


Ibn Qudamah mentions in al-Mugni;
"The companion of the prophet (pbuh) used to wipe over the jawrabayn and there were no differences amongst them in that and therefore it is ijma'"

As for the meaning of al-jawrab, then this is clear and understood by the arabs as anything worn over the feet.

The author of al-Qaamoos said: jawrab means something that is wrapped around the feet.

Abu Bakr ibn al-'Arabi said: jawrab means a thin cover for the feet made of wool, worn to keep the feet warm.

Ibn Hazm mentions in al-muhalla: wiping over anything that is worn on the feet is Sunnah, whether they are slippers made of leather or felt or wood, or socks made of linen, wool, cotton, camel hair or goat hair, whether leather is worn over them or not, or whether they are overshoes or slippers, worn over slippers, or socks worn over socks.

It is even permissible for a person to wipe over socks that have holes in them. The prophet (pbuh) allowed wiping over the socks and he did not stipulate any condition that they should be whole and free of holes or tears, especially since the socks of his companions were not free of holes or tears as Narrated by 'Abd al-Razzaaq in al-Musanaaf that Sufyaan al-Thawri said: "One may wipe over the khuff so long as it is still clinging to the feet. Were the khuff of the Muhaajireen and Ansaar anything but full of holes and tears?"
If this had any effect on whether one could wipe over them, the Prophet (pbuh) would have stated that clearly, for one of the basic principles of usool al-fiqh is that it is not permitted to delay explaining something when it is needed.

Shaykh al-Islam ibn Taymiyah said: When the Messenger of Allaah (pbuh) gave the command to wipe over the khuff, he knew what the normal state of affairs was, and he did not stipulate the condition that the socks should be whole and free of any faults. His command should be taken as general in meaning and it should not be restricted unless there is any shar'i evidence for doing so. What is implied by the wording is that any khuff that people wear and walk about in may be wiped over, even if they have holes or are worn out, without defining the acceptable extent for these holes and tears, because even such a definition would require evidence..."
This is also the view of Ishaaq, Ibn al-Mubaarak, Ibn 'Uyaynah and Abu Thawr.

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) mentioned in al-Majmoo' that even if a person were to wear khuff made of glass, if it were possible to walk in them then it would be permissible to wipe over them, even though the skin beneath them would be visible...

Ibn al-Qayyim sates in Tahtheeb as-Sunan;
"Thoses who heard the Quran from the prophet (pbuh) and knew its interpretation wiped over the jawrabayn and they were the most knowledgeable of the ummah in understanding the Quran and that which Allaah wanted."

As for the statements of some of the scholars whereby they state that the jawrabayn have to be either mujallad or muna'al, then where is the evidence to specify this?
The jawrabayn were known amongst the sahabah as anything that covered the feet and as Ibn Umar mentioned, "Wiping over the socks (jawrabayn) is like wiping over the leather slippers (khuffayn)", this is because they are both worn on the feet for the same reason.
For anyone to specify something that is general, he has to provide evidence or his statement is rejected, the religion of Allaah is based upon evidence, it's not based upon ones desires!!

We even find that some of the scholars try to differ between ahad and mutawaatir, if this was the case, then why did the prophet (pbuh) in the hadeeth collected by Bukhari and Muslim send Muadh bin Jabal to Yemen by himself to call the people to Islaam, he was commanded by the Prophet to call them to the oneness of Allaah and to accept the prophet (pbuh), what is greater in the religion than this?
How can it be permissible to use one person to call a whole nation to Islaam and then not accept ahad ahadeeth, when these hadeeth are not necesseraly ghareeb, but can also be 'azeez or mash-hoor?

There are many evidences proving masah over the socks and if someone would like to elaborate on this, he should refer back to the kitaab "Ahkam at-Taharah" by Abu Umar Dibyan bin Muhammed ad-Dibyan, he's authored a 13 volume set on the rulings of taharah, the rulings related to masah are in the fifth volume, he discusses them over approximately 600 pages.

Abu Mohammed discusses the difference in twilight we face in the UK in the summer;

The best response I have for him is to ask his fellow schoolboy Yasin about this issue, I was told that one of Yasins cousins who pray at Tarbeeyyah asked him about doing jam' between Maghrib and Isha in the summer and he said; "I'm very flexible on this mas-alah", why don't you discuss the ruling with him and then accuse him of picking and choosing and being from those who follow their desires.

Anyone who reads this article with an open mind will come to realise that we are people that follow the Quran and Sunnah, the older generation amongst the ahnaaf will never change and neither would the majority of their so called ulama, this is proven in seerah and was the case when the prophet (pbuh) began his da'wah, the majority that accepted his call were from the youth, and alhamdulillaah we find by the mercy of Allaah, that the majority of those who have accepted the call of ahlus sunnah are the youth.

I was recently told that the chairman of Tarbeeyyah is Yasins uncle, and a few of the teachers there are his cousins, I find it strange that a person like this speaks very proudly of his corrupt views but doesn't discuss it with his relatives, surely if he had nothing to hide, he could've persuaded them to make it a hanafee masjid.

I ask Allaah the Most High to forgive me if I have made any mistakes, to increase all of us in knowledge, to allow us to open our eyes and follow the true sunnah of the prophet (pbuh), to unite the ummah under the banner of "laa ilaaha illa Allaah", and to allow us to overcome our enemies.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------end of the brothers article-

I hope I haven't wronged the brother by not highlighting and editing the way he wanted me to, this is the best I could do and I hope it brings benefit.

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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 8th October 2011 11:44
I don't know Yasin personally, I have never met him or spoken to him. However I think you have got your facts wrong about Yasin. (Because the Yaseen the brother is talking about is some one else). So before more stench starts pouring out, please ascertain the truth, surely you have read the Hadith on this.

How fitting that the brother uses foul language and make accusations on assumptions, SubhanAllah, Gheebah and Slander in its true form. Jazakallah for your thawab.

So much so that thesunnah has deemed it necessary not to mention the name of such a learned brother who has voluntarily given us his rewards and taken away our sins. Jazakallah again.
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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 8th October 2011 11:49
Surah Baqarah verse 204.



And among men there is one whose words, in this life, attract you; he even makes Allah his witness on what is there in his heart, while he is so stiff-necked when quarreling.

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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2011 21:13
@thesunnah,

You have attempted to make a small change in your post regarding the error of Yasin from your side, however it would be advisable to simply.just add the changes here below, otherwise people will wonder what we are talking about. Jazakallah.

By the way, your friend has not really clarified anything, rather than just make.accusations.

By my mentioning what mufti saab said in his talk about the Eid Salah, you may not of heard the whole talk and my post was made as he was talking about the issue. And since when did it become a fatwa. Mufti saab explained that this could become a fitna with people meeting up and exchanging Facebook ID's MSN details and create more fitna from there. Example, if I went there with my wife, the Salah would have been in segregation, however, after Salah, if I met a brother and decided to talk to him for a couple.of minutes, my wife would.then be spotted and seen and she may see your wife or sister and start talking etc etc then it would turn into a social gathering. And we all know what women are like, they like to talk and share everything.

REMOVED COMMENT, APOLOGIES OF A MISTAKE.

Socks:

Why go through a 600 page book just so that you can wipe your socks, wash the feet for crying out loud, or use leather socks. The brother has also rejected the fatwa of Shaykh bin baz and Shaykh ibn taymiyyah. Or Shaykh bin baz him self has rejected these 600 pages.

Anyway, back to the moon issue, if the brother is suggesting that they have not blind followed imam Ahmed with regards to the moon issue, then where did they site the moon, 9 out of 10 authorities in Saudi Arabia said it was not sighted. Even Shaykh uthaymeen is clear on this. So who exactly is being followed. Or do they just make ijtehad as and when it suites them?

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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2011 21:37
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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2011 21:55
I have no idea what and who thesunnah is talking about but yes, there are many Yasin's around the world and I'm not whoever you or he thinks I am. Never heard of leswin road or this uncle.

Ignoring the topics at hand and directly attacking individuals is a the fuel of a Salafi so please tell this brother to follow the Qur'aan and Hadeeth properly.

I will leave you in the trusted hands of the members here till i have time to read trough the posts properly.

Secondly, if this 'brother' can send you an email and receive ur email he has internet? We dont have a name or anything, and you expect us to blind follow this so called 'brother'?
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