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#76 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2011 23:02
thesunnah wrote:
You (Yasin) then stated in the same post;
"Firstly, we do not follow a Madhab as a guideline as they are rulings. Rulings are not guidelines. All the rulings in each school of thought is backed by Qur'aan, Hadeeth and research which we nowadays can only dream of."

Yes, they are backed by Quran, Hadeeth and research, but you're failing to mention that some of them have used weak ahadeeth and at times fabricated ahadeeth (according to the muhadditheen of the past) and others have used authentic ahadeeth, also some have misinterpreted ahadeeth whilst others haven't,


Who used weak Hadith and why!

www.muftisays.com/forums/the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/6187/...

Question, where and when have fabricated Hadith been used?
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#77 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 00:10
On the subject of da'eef hadeeth, an interesting point worth noting is that the hanafi madhhab gives preference to da'eef ahadeeth over personal opinions.
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#78 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 12:16
abu mohammed wrote:
@thesunnah,

By my mentioning what mufti saab said in his talk about the Eid Salah, you may not of heard the whole talk and my post was made as he was talking about the issue. And since when did it become a fatwa. Mufti saab explained that this could become a fitna with people meeting up and exchanging Facebook ID's MSN details and create more fitna from there. Example, if I went there with my wife, the Salah would have been in segregation, however, after Salah, if I met a brother and decided to talk to him for a couple.of minutes, my wife would.then be spotted and seen and she may see your wife or sister and start talking etc etc then it would turn into a social gathering. And we all know what women are like, they like to talk and share everything.



Assalaamu'alaikum. brothers, forgive me for my ignorance in this matter, but i don't understand what is meant by the above. We all know from Hadith that the Salaah of Eid was always done outside in the place of the 'Musalla', away from the Masjid and the men would pray in front of the women leaving some space without a barrier...but this is not the issue...as we know the Eid Prayer in question was Fully Segregated, keeping the men and women apart and from seeing each other.

The main aim is the brothers and sisters go to this place to worship Allah swt......but this is not the issue...as Mufti saab says 'it could become a fitna by meeting people'....are you serious.....brotherhood (brothers meeting brothers) and sisterhood (sisters meeting sisters) is now a fitna and can cause problems??????? ...also 'Facebook ID's MSN details' etc can be exchanged anywhere.

As for your example.....again confused, as it makes no sense.....you yourself have said that the Salah is in Segregation......yet you are now talking about what MAY happen outside of the segregated area which COULD happen on any street corner. If you meet a brother outside of the segregated area, whilst you are with your wife....then who's fault is that?? Should you not have just salam'd the brother and carried on with your wife/family? Think about this logically, if you are with your wife mother sister or daughter, whether she has niqaab or not....why oh why would you stop and decide to have chat with a brother?

Unfortunately if this is the arguments of the Mufti or of anyone on this forum, they are not thought through and quite sad.....sad that in this day and age, instead of our communities coming together, working together and flourishing together we distance ourselves from doing good just so that (which is probably the main reason) us Hanifis do not mix with the Salafi/Wahhabi brothers...just in case we drawn to them.............The more we try and put a barrier between ourselves, the worse our relationship with them and the Ummah will become........May Allah swt. guide us all and keep us steadfast on His Deen and give us the tawfiq to embrace all within our Ummah. Ameen

Wasalaamu'alaikum wa rahmatullah
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#79 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 12:22
Has anyone ever wondered the following?-------->>>>> Since when did women start to pray EID salaah in jamaat?
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#80 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 12:48
rizmalek wrote:
Has anyone ever wondered the following?-------->>>>> Since when did women start to pray EID salaah in jamaat?



Statements of the Fuqahaa

1) Allaama Ayni رضي الله عنه says, 'The fatwa in this age is that women are forbidden from attending all Salaah, be it during the day or the night and regardlesa of whether the women are young or old. The word of the author (of Kanzud Daqaa'iq) "jamaa'at" includes the Jumu'ah Salaah, the Eid Salaah, Istisqaa Salaah and even attending lectures, especially the lectures of ignorant people who pose as Ulema only to acquire material gains and fulfil their desires.' (Ayni's commentary of Kanz, Volume 1, Page 40)

2) Durrul Mukhtaar (Volume 1, Page 529) states, 'Because of the evils of the times, the Fatwa issued is that it is Makrooh for women to attend the Masjid even for the Jumu'ah Salaah, the Eid Salaah and lectures, even though it be old ladies and at night.'

3) Fataawaa Aalamgeeri (Volume 1, Page 56) states, 'The Fatwa nowadays is that it is Makrooh for women to attend all Salaahs in the Masjid because of the evils of the times, as stated in Kaafi.'

4) Bahrur Ra'iq (Volume 1, Page 358) states, 'Women may not attend the Jamaa'ah Salaah because of Allaah's words, 'and remain glued to your homes,' and because Rasulullaah (saw) said in the Ahadeeth that for a woman to perform her prayer at home is better that performing it at the masjid.'

Hadhrat Aaisha (Radhiallaahu anha) narrates that if Nabi (Sallallaahu alayhi Wasallam) knew what the women are doing he would have prevented them from the Masjid just as the women of Bani Israaeel were prevented.' (Bukhari vol. 1 p. 120)

After quoting this statement of Hadhrat 'A'isha (radiallaahu 'anha), the commentator of Bukhaari, Imaam Ayni (rahmatullaahi 'alaih) says, 'As for today (855 A.H.), we seek Allaah's protection from it!' (Umdatul Qaari, as quoted in Kifaayatul Mufti, Volume 5, Page 392)

He also adds that if Hadhrat 'A'isha (radiallaahu 'anha) had to see the fashions and evils that the women of his day had started, she would have been even more opposed to women attending the Masaajid.

If this was the situation in the 9th century of Islaam, what can be said about today?

During the Khilaafah of Hadhrat Umar (radiallaahu anh), when evils started to manifest themselves, he and the eminent Sahabah (radiaallahu anhum) of the time had the proclamation made that women should not attend the masjid. This was approved by all the Sahabah (radiallaahu anhum).

Badaai'us Sanaa'i (Volume 1, Page 157) states, 'It is not permissible for young women to attend the masaajid because of the narration from Hadhrat Umar (radiallaahu anh) stating that he prevented young women from the masaajid. This is because women leaving the home leads to the spread of evil, and anything leading to such evil is haraam.'

In his commentary of Bukhaari, Allaama Ayni (rahmatullaahi alaih) quotes a narration stating that Hadhrat Abdullaah ibn Umar (radiallaahu anhuma) used to stand in the Masjid on fridays and throw pebbles at women to drive them away from the masjid. (Volume 3, Page 228)

Hadhrat Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood (radiallaahu anh) so used to drive women away from the Masjid on fridays, telling them, 'Go away! Your homes are better for you.' (Targheeb wat Tarheeb, Volume 1, Page 190)

(From Fataawaa Rahimiyyah, Volume 2)
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#81 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 12:48
rizmalek wrote:
when did women start to pray EID salaah in jamaat?


Jazaak Allah Khair, thats a good question. Alhamdulillah, Women prayed the Eid Salaah in Jamaah since the time of the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). It is not obligatory for women, but it is Sunnah. Women should offer this prayer in the prayer-place with the Muslims, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) enjoined them to do that.

In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that Umm 'Atiyah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "We were commanded (and in one report it says, he commanded us - meaning the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) to bring out to the Eid prayers the adolescent girls and the women in seclusion, and he commanded the menstruating women to avoid the prayer-place of the Muslims." Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1/93; Muslim, 890. According to another report: "We were commanded to come out and to bring out the adolescent girls and those in seclusion."

According to a report narrated by al-Tirmidhi: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to bring out the virgins, adolescent girls, women in seclusion and menstruating women on the two Eids, but the menstruating women were to keep away from the prayer place and witness the gathering of the Muslims. One of them said, "O Messenger of Allaah, what if she does not have a jilbaab?" He said, "Then let her sister lend her one of her jilbaabs." (Agreed upon).

According to a report narrated by al-Nasaa'i, Hafsah bint Sireen said: Umm 'Atiyyah hardly ever mentioned the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) but she would say, "May my father be sacrificed for him." I said, "Did you hear the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say such and such," and she said, "Yes, may my father be sacrificed for him, and he said, 'Let the adolescent girls, women in seclusion and menstruating women come out to attend Eid and witness the gathering of the Muslims, but let the menstruating women avoid the prayer place.'" Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1/84

Based on the above, it is clear that for women to go out and attend the Eid prayers is a confirmed Sunnah. And Allaah is the Source of Strength.
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#82 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 12:52
Seifeddine-M wrote:

Statements of the Fuqahaa

1) Allaama Ayni رضي الله عنه says, 'The fatwa in this age is that women are forbidden from attending all Salaah, be it during the day or the night and regardlesa of whether the women are young or old. The word of the author (of Kanzud Daqaa'iq) "jamaa'at" includes the Jumu'ah Salaah, the Eid Salaah, Istisqaa Salaah and even attending lectures, especially the lectures of ignorant people who pose as Ulema only to acquire material gains and fulfil their desires.' (Ayni's commentary of Kanz, Volume 1, Page 40)

2) Durrul Mukhtaar (Volume 1, Page 529) states, 'Because of the evils of the times, the Fatwa issued is that it is Makrooh for women to attend the Masjid even for the Jumu'ah Salaah, the Eid Salaah and lectures, even though it be old ladies and at night.'

3) Fataawaa Aalamgeeri (Volume 1, Page 56) states, 'The Fatwa nowadays is that it is Makrooh for women to attend all Salaahs in the Masjid because of the evils of the times, as stated in Kaafi.'

4) Bahrur Ra'iq (Volume 1, Page 358) states, 'Women may not attend the Jamaa'ah Salaah because of Allaah's words, 'and remain glued to your homes,' and because Rasulullaah (saw) said in the Ahadeeth that for a woman to perform her prayer at home is better that performing it at the masjid.'

Hadhrat Aaisha (Radhiallaahu anha) narrates that if Nabi (Sallallaahu alayhi Wasallam) knew what the women are doing he would have prevented them from the Masjid just as the women of Bani Israaeel were prevented.' (Bukhari vol. 1 p. 120)

After quoting this statement of Hadhrat 'A'isha (radiallaahu 'anha), the commentator of Bukhaari, Imaam Ayni (rahmatullaahi 'alaih) says, 'As for today (855 A.H.), we seek Allaah's protection from it!' (Umdatul Qaari, as quoted in Kifaayatul Mufti, Volume 5, Page 392)

He also adds that if Hadhrat 'A'isha (radiallaahu 'anha) had to see the fashions and evils that the women of his day had started, she would have been even more opposed to women attending the Masaajid.

If this was the situation in the 9th century of Islaam, what can be said about today?

During the Khilaafah of Hadhrat Umar (radiallaahu anh), when evils started to manifest themselves, he and the eminent Sahabah (radiaallahu anhum) of the time had the proclamation made that women should not attend the masjid. This was approved by all the Sahabah (radiallaahu anhum).

Badaai'us Sanaa'i (Volume 1, Page 157) states, 'It is not permissible for young women to attend the masaajid because of the narration from Hadhrat Umar (radiallaahu anh) stating that he prevented young women from the masaajid. This is because women leaving the home leads to the spread of evil, and anything leading to such evil is haraam.'

In his commentary of Bukhaari, Allaama Ayni (rahmatullaahi alaih) quotes a narration stating that Hadhrat Abdullaah ibn Umar (radiallaahu anhuma) used to stand in the Masjid on fridays and throw pebbles at women to drive them away from the masjid. (Volume 3, Page 228)

Hadhrat Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood (radiallaahu anh) so used to drive women away from the Masjid on fridays, telling them, 'Go away! Your homes are better for you.' (Targheeb wat Tarheeb, Volume 1, Page 190)

(From Fataawaa Rahimiyyah, Volume 2)[

---------/quote end quote]

Please Note Brother, you are not answering the question. The Eid Salaah took place at the Musalla away from the Masjid. The hadith mentioned is to do with the Masjid, a seperate topic. Qur'aan and Hadith only please in regards to the question. Why do we try and fight this when there are clear cut daleel????
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#83 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 14:10

"Abu_Hanifa" wrote:
"rizmalek" wrote:
Has anyone ever wondered the following?-------->>>>> Since when did women start to pray EID salaah in jamaat?
Jazaak Allah Khair, thats a good question. Alhamdulillah, Women prayed the Eid Salaah in Jamaah since the time of the prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). It is not obligatory for women, but it is Sunnah. Women should offer this prayer in the prayer-place with the Muslims, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) enjoined them to do that. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that Umm ‘Atiyah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “We were commanded (and in one report it says, he commanded us – meaning the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) to bring out to the Eid prayers the adolescent girls and the women in seclusion, and he commanded the menstruating women to avoid the prayer-place of the Muslims.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1/93; Muslim, 890. According to another report: “We were commanded to come out and to bring out the adolescent girls and those in seclusion.” According to a report narrated by al-Tirmidhi: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to bring out the virgins, adolescent girls, women in seclusion and menstruating women on the two Eids, but the menstruating women were to keep away from the prayer place and witness the gathering of the Muslims. One of them said, “O Messenger of Allaah, what if she does not have a jilbaab?” He said, “Then let her sister lend her one of her jilbaabs.” (Agreed upon). According to a report narrated by al-Nasaa’i, Hafsah bint Sireen said: Umm ‘Atiyyah hardly ever mentioned the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) but she would say, “May my father be sacrificed for him.” I said, “Did you hear the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say such and such,” and she said, “Yes, may my father be sacrificed for him, and he said, ‘Let the adolescent girls, women in seclusion and menstruating women come out to attend Eid and witness the gathering of the Muslims, but let the menstruating women avoid the prayer place.’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1/84 Based on the above, it is clear that for women to go out and attend the Eid prayers is a confirmed Sunnah. And Allaah is the Source of Strength.

Asslamo Allaikum Brother,

I suggest that you look at the matter more analytically and it breaks down into following scenarios:

  • Case 1: Are women forbidden from attending Mosques?

    • There is no direct prohibition in the Qur’aan & Sunnah so no.
  • Case 2: Are women discouarged from attending Mosques?
    • Absolutely Yes and here is the evidence:
    • [2:144] Narrated Umm Humaid As-Sa’diyah (RA) who once said to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam): Messenger of Allah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam)! I love to pray with you (i.e. in the mosque)! Upon hearing this, Allah’s Messenger (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said: "I know that you love to say your prayer with me. However, the prayer you offer in your residence is more excellent than that you offer in your people’s mosque. And your prayer in your people’s mosque is better for you than you prayer in the (lager) congregational mosque." [Abu Dawud;, Musnad of Imaam Ahmad; & At-Tabarani]
  • Case 3: Does this discouragement apply to five times Salah ONLY or also extends to Eid & other Salah?
    • The ruling of Hanafi Madhab about women is based strictly on the Qur'aan and the commandment of Allah (SWT)

      • First understand the commandments of Allah (SWT): [33:33]Remain in your homes, and do not display (your) beauty as it used to be displayed in the days of earlier ignorance; and establish Salah, and pay Zakah, and obey Allah and His messenger.
      • Then click and read this to get a better understanding
    • According to Ulamah of Hanafi Madhab the Hadeeth of Narrated Umm Humaid As-Sa’diyah (RA) is GENERAL and doesn't make a distinction of Eid or no Eid.

      • Nevertheless they still don't consider it HARAM (as there is no evidence) but since there is plenty to discouarge it is MAKROOH
    • According to many Non-Hanafi Ulamah going out for Eid Salah is MUSTAHAB!

      • Hafidh Ibn Asqalani (RA) writes in reference to the Ahadeeth mentioned by you: فِيهِ اِسْتِحْبَابُ خُرُوجِ النِّسَاءِ إِلَى شُهُودِ الْعِيدَيْنِ سَوَاءٌ كُنَّ شَوَابَّ أَمْ لا وَذَوَاتِ هَيْئَاتٍ أَمْ لا
      • Imam Shawkani (RA) writes in reference to the Ahadeeth mentioned by you: وَالْحَدِيثُ وَمَا فِي مَعْنَاهُ مِنْ الأَحَادِيثِ قَاضِيَةٌ بِمَشْرُوعِيَّةِ خُرُوجِ النِّسَاءِ فِي الْعِيدَيْنِ إلَى الْمُصَلَّى مِنْ غَيْرِ فَرْقٍ بَيْنَ الْبِكْرِ وَالثَّيِّبِ وَالشَّابَّةِ وَالْعَجُوزِ وَالْحَائِضِ وَغَيْرِهَا مَا لَمْ تَكُنْ مُعْتَدَّةً أَوْ كَانَ خُرُوجُهَا فِتْنَةً أَوْ كَانَ لَهَا عُذْرٌ
      • Shaykh Uthaymeen (RA) writes in reference to the Ahadeeth mentioned by you:  الأفضل خروجها إلى العيد

So the disagreement is pretty simple:

  1. According to some Ulamah the Ahadeeth which you have quoted over-rides the Hadeeth of Umm Humaid As-Sa’diyah (RA) therefore they consider it MUSTAHAB for women to attend Eid Salah
  2. According to many Hanafi Ulamah the Hadeeth of Umm Humaid As-Sa’diyah (RA) over-rides the other ones thus the attendence of women is discouarged.

Allah (SWT) knows best.

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#84 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 14:17

To further make a point...

There are hunderds of Masajid in UK where the Imam and committe follow the Madhab of Imam Abu Haneefa (RA) and women attend Eid and all other Salah.

So the dispute is over THE MOST SUPERIOR ACTION for a woman:

  1. Should she attend Eid Salah in congregation?
  2. Should she NOT attend Eid Salah in congregation?

There is express and general discouragement in the Qur'aan & Sunnah for those who opt for "position 2" and Ulamah beleive that the specific evidence DOES NOT over-ride the general rule.

There is "special evidence" for those who opt for "position 1"

This is exactly the point of difference of opinion, the important issue is no one is prohibiting it in practise for either groups of Sisters!

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#85 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 14:40

where's my post gone? I think someone's removed my post, can the admin please sort it out.


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#86 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 14:43
rizmalek wrote:
Has anyone ever wondered the following?-------->>>>> Since when did women start to pray EID salaah in jamaat?


I think brother Abu Hanifa and brohter Muadh Khan have answered this, I would like to add that there's also a hadith in Al-Bukhari and Muslim, it says that the Prophet pbuh said, "if any of your women seek permission to go to the mosque than do not prohibit them", in another narration in Saheeh Muslim the Prophet said, "do not prohibit the female slaves of Allah from going to the mosques of Allah".

As far as I have been told, there isn't a command from the prophet pbuh or any of his companions during the life of the prophet pbuh abrogating this.


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#87 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 15:27
abu mohammed wrote:


And as you have mentioned sisters, then let it be known that that I have had to stop sisters discussing things over MSN. I will not mention or hint as to.who the sisters were, but all I will say is that they were going into detail, surely they should know that this is haraam.
POST EDITED DUE TO MISTAKE (Abu Mohammed)







I think this was very childish and inappropriate; we're not a people that stereotype.

How do you know they spoke about these things? Who told you? I hope you weren't eves dropping and I hope no one told you about a private discussion they were having because this goes against amaanah.

I hope you apologise for posting such a statement, I thought you were better than that, especially after all the statements you made in response to the article the brother wrote.




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#88 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 15:39

"thesunnah" wrote:
"rizmalek" wrote:
Has anyone ever wondered the following?-------->>>>> Since when did women start to pray EID salaah in jamaat?
I think brother Abu Hanifa and brohter Muadh Khan have answered this, I would like to add that there's also a hadith in Al-Bukhari and Muslim, it says that the Prophet pbuh said, "if any of your women seek permission to go to the mosque than do not prohibit them", in another narration in Saheeh Muslim the Prophet said, "do not prohibit the female slaves of Allah from going to the mosques of Allah". As far as I have been told, there isn't a command from the prophet pbuh or any of his companions during the life of the prophet pbuh abrogating this.

Asslamo Allaikum,

The more in depth you study the Hanafi Fiqh the more you realise how close to Sunnah it actually is.

  • Women are discouraged from venturing out of their homes (in general)
  • Women are encouraged to pray their Salah (in general) at home and not the Masjid
  • Women are NOT PROHIBITED to pray their Salah in the Masjid

Ruling of Hanafi Madhab: Makrooh which is in between Halal & Haram. The "legal status" tells you BANG ON...

Eid Salah is a special case and you will find Hanafi Ulamah who permit it based on Ahadeeth quoted by the brother and Hanafi Ulamah who don't based on the general nature of the issue and according to "Urf"

 

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#89 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 15:50
Muadh_Khan wrote:
To further make a point... There are hunderds of Masajid in UK where the Imam and committe follow the Madhab of Imam Abu Haneefa (RA) and women attend Eid and all other Salah. So the dispute is over THE MOST SUPERIOR ACTION for a woman: Should she attend Eid Salah in congregation? Should she NOT attend Eid Salah in congregation? There is express and general discouragement in the Qur'aan & Sunnah for those who opt for "position 2" and Ulamah beleive that the specific evidence DOES NOT over-ride the general rule. There is "special evidence" for those who opt for "position 1" This is exactly the point of difference of opinion, the important issue is no one is prohibiting it in practise for either groups of Sisters!


Jazaak Allah Khair for your points brother. As Br thesunnah said the fact that praying at home is preferable does not mean that that women are not permitted to go to the mosque, as is clear from the following hadeeth:
From 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar, who said: "I heard the Messenger of Allaah SAWS (peace be upon him) say: 'Do not prevent your women from going to the mosque if they ask your permission.'" Bilaal ibn 'Abdullah said, "By Allaah, we will prevent them." (Ibn 'Umar) turned to him and told him off in an unprecedented fashion, saying: "I tell you what the Messenger of Allaah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said, and you say 'By Allaah, we will prevent them'!!" (reported by Muslim, 667).

But there are conditions attached to the permission for women to go to the mosque, as follows:
(1) She should wear complete hijaab.
(2) She should not go out wearing perfume.
(3) She should have the permission of her husband and the husband should not prevent if he is asked and the conditions are met.

Her going out should not involve any other kind of prohibited acts, such as being alone in a car with a non-mahram driver. If a woman does something wrong like that, her husband or guardian has the right to stop her; in fact it is his duty to do so.
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#90 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2011 16:00
thesunnah wrote:
abu mohammed wrote:


And as you have mentioned sisters, then let it be known that that I have had to stop sisters discussing things over MSN. I will not mention or hint as to.who the sisters were, but all I will say is that a sister was discussing her private life (to another sister) and going into detail, surely she should know that this is haraam.








I think this was very childish and inappropriate; we're not a people that stereotype.

How do you know they spoke about these things? Who told you? I hope you weren't ears dropping and I hope no one told you about a private discussion they were having because this goes against amaanah.

I hope you apologise for posting such a statement, I thought you were better than that, especially after all the statements you made in response to the article the brother wrote.







I agree with br thesunnah here too. It is very wrong for a person, such as abu mohammed, after engaging on a certain topic on a certain level to suddenly go totally off course by such an inappropriate comment. If your are not going to mention or hint who it is then do what is best and keep silent. what she was discussing and with whom she was discussing it should have stayed between them. The fact he mentioned 'a sister' is also wrong.....why differeniate??
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