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#91 [Permalink] Posted on 10th September 2014 16:04
abu mohammed wrote:
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Anyone can but that doesn't mean I did. So don't ask questions which contain adverse inferences on your part.
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#92 [Permalink] Posted on 10th September 2014 16:07
sorry for being so obtuse
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#93 [Permalink] Posted on 10th September 2014 16:08
Guest-31384 wrote:
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InshaAllah

EDIT: Next time I'll confirm with site admin even though I understand that even if IP addresses match or not, it doesn't 100% confirm if it's one person or many different ones.
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#94 [Permalink] Posted on 10th September 2014 16:16
Guest-31238 wrote:
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lol, Perfect.
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#95 [Permalink] Posted on 10th September 2014 18:56
I wasn't going to pay too much attention to the posts in this thread because it's nothing new to me. I chose not to reply to some posts out of respect for other Ulamaa which will continue from me. I will not stoop to levels some members and guests have stooped to in this thread.

I have however been requested to give some attention to the thread so due to the nature of some of the posts, I will simply answer the criticism, and report quotes that are relevant. All replies unrelated to the questions here will not be permitted as that causes disputes without any intent of resolving it.

I will break it down one problem at a time inshaAllah. I will refer to all the critics as the "doubters" to lighten the wordings as I believe you are simply doubtful and not critics of anything that's posted that doesn't match the Ulamaa you follow so deeply.

Muadh_Khan wrote:
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All the correct information and guidelines were in this post of Muadh's. If anyone cared to even read it and then understand it it wouldn't get this far. His reminders were simply ignored.

1.
Guest-31384 wrote:
There are 3 fatwas posted today above that state it is not permissible and/or Makrooh Tahreemi for women to come to the Masjid for Islamic education & alternative solutions are proposed.

You have not provided alternative evidence on the matter.


First you need to learn from a Mufti what a Fatwa is in Sharee'ah and what an opinion is. Look into the words used by Sahabah to provide answers. You will find, "Umar doesn't approve of it" or "So and so Sahabi didn't do this".. scarcely did they use the terms "It is Haraam" if it's not clearly stated as Haram in Qur'aan and Sunnah. So first learn from a Mufti and not a forum. Learn the different types of Taqleed the way Sahabah did Taqleed. Listen to members who clearly put forward information and questions which try to explain your posts that you try to force on the world. Realise the choice of words used and don't jump to conclusions which is happening a lot.

Second, you say 3 "Fatwas" were posted but not one gave any evidence of the ruling except for CIRCUMSTANCES and CONDITIONS.

Third, you asked for written works of Ulamaa and when it was provided by the member Concerned (Post #49) the matter was not ended. More forcing of personal opinions continued.

Fourth, abu mohammed once again reminded about CIRCUMSTANCES and CONDITIONS which by the way is the ONLY reason the 3 FATWAS that were posted state it's not permissible.

I tried to respect both sides with the following post
Yasin wrote:
View original post


Yet people still decide to draw incorrect conclusions.

I repeat, no evidence was provided from Qur'aan, Hadeeth or consensus that it's Haram and full stop. None whatsoever. Read the three Fatwa's again and please show where it has proved. That's my first question to the doubters.

If you cannot find it, you have wasted a lot of everyone's time.

For your convenience, I will post them below

Fatwa 1 wrote:
Answer 1

ASSALAMU ALAYKUM WA RAHMATULLAHI WA BARAKATUHU

Br/Sister in Islam

NONE OF THEM ARE PERMISSIBLE.

THE WOMEN CAN LISTEN ON THE RECEIVER OR LISTEN TO THE CDS.

A K HOOSEN [/quote]

I see no evidence. Is this a personal opinion or proof that it's Haram? That's my second question

Did anyone say (or namely did I say?) that this is incorrect? If I did, please show me. This is my third question to the doubters.

Fatwa 2 wrote:
Answer Two:

Haamidan wa Musalliyan

Respected Brother in Islam

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaatuh

Your email refers

Women who are concerned they do acquire the Islamic knowledge within the confines of their homes. Unfortunately, the women who have a strong desire to leave their homes are looking out for ways and reasons to get out of their homes.

And Allah Ta`ala knows best

(Mufti) E Salejee

Madrasah Taleemuddeen
4 Third Avenue
P.O.Box 26393
Isipingo Beach
Durban
[/quote]

Not only does this not have any proof or evidence of it being Haram but it also contains judgement, slander and complete disrespect to hundreds if not thousands of sisters who may genuinely have such zeal for knowledge that those sentences itself would bring them to tears. Putting possible "zeal for knowledge and closeness to Allah" down to "looking for reasons to get out".

So please show me the evidence in this Fatwa please if you still feel these are not personal opinions which once again no one said was wrong in the first place. This is my fourth question to the doubters.

Fatwa 3 wrote:
Answer 3

ASSALAMU ALAIKUM

13 Zul Qa’dh 1435 (9 September 2014)

Your e-mail dated 8 September 2014 refers.

In this day and age, Allah Ta’ala has simplified for women the acquisition of basic Islamic knowledge necessary for their day to day life. An abundance of Islamic literature is available in English, Urdu and Arabic to cater for the Islamic education of females. The basic Waajib quota of Islamic knowledge necessary for all Muslims, male and female, is available in elementary kitaabs such as Kitaabul Imaan, Kitaabut Tahaarat, Kitaabus Salaat, Kitaabus Saun, etc., etc. All of these books are available in English. In fact, a kitaab such as
Beheshti Zewer, covers far more than the Waajib requisite of Deeni Ilm. Thus, there is no excuse for any woman who refrains from
educating herself at home in the sphere of Waajib Deeni Ilm.

It is not permissible (Makrooh Tahrimi) for women to attend the Musjid for talks just as it is Makrooh for them to attend for Salaat. The same ruling applies whether they are accompanied by a mahram or not. In fact, the mahram who takes them to the Musjid is likewise a mal-oon just as his mal-oonah female.

We have published five or six books on this subject. In these books we have argued and answered the issue from all and every aspect. If you have not read these books, inform us. In fact, all these books
are available on our website. All the Shar’i dalai-il have been explained.

Was-salaam

A.S. Desai

For

Mujlisul Ulama of S.A.


Here many reasons were given. None of the reasons were Qur'aan verses nor Ahadeeth. Besides the fact that no one disagreed with this either in its entirety, the doubters are still forcing this "OPINION" onto everyone. Let me try to explain with additions if that helps:

First, consider the ruling of Tayammum. Amongst the validity of Tayammum is the absence of water. This is called a "CONDITION". Once water is available, the CONDITION is not met therefore Tayammum is not valid.

"An abundance of Islamic literature is available in English, Urdu and Arabic to cater for the Islamic education of females."

1. What if the sister cannot read English, Urdu or Arabic?
Then this reason (CONDITION) is now void and so is the ruling that follows it.

The basic Waajib quota of Islamic knowledge necessary for all Muslims, male and female, is available in elementary kitaabs such as Kitaabul Imaan, Kitaabut Tahaarat, Kitaabus Salaat, Kitaabus Saun, etc., etc.

2. Refer to number 1
3. What if a sister does not have access to these Kitaabs?
4. What if a sister cannot afford these Kitaabs?
In all the above cases, this CONDITION is also void.

Beheshti Zewer, covers far more than the Waajib requisite of Deeni Ilm. Thus, there is no excuse for any woman who refrains from
educating herself at home in the sphere of Waajib Deeni Ilm.

5. Refer to 1, 3 and 4
Once again, this reason is also void.
And 6, what if the sister is incapable (which is mostly the case) of not understanding words, phrases, concepts, rulings or even misinterpreting like many of the doubters have in this thread by saying my sentences were unclear when to many they were clear?
Again, the reason is void.

After all these REASONS from his opinion, deduction or observation, he issued the ruling that followed.

Where is the concrete evidence in this "FATWA"? Did anyone object to his reasoning or ruling? This is my fifth question to the doubters

Continuing with replies....

[quote="Guest-31384"]We have unqualified Muftis on here writing in red thereby seeking to purport that they are an authority on Deen & claiming that it's not Haraam or Makrooh Tahreemi for women to attend the Masjid by any stretch of the imagination.

"unqualified Muftis"
1. Are you 100% they are Muftis? Or that they're not?
2. Red (or other coloured) text is to help readers identify important portions. It's not a stamp of authority as you claim.
3. The problem with the doubters is not understanding what anyone is posting as a responce and instantly jumping to believing everyone else thinks it's not Haraam "by any stretch of the imagination" - I can't find anyone who's said that. And this is what all your posts involve. Putting words into posts that don't exist.

[quote="Guest-31384"]No evidence was provided for such a bold claim & one of the 3 fatwas clearly states above that it is Makrooh
Please look into البينة على المدعي

I repeat, no evidence was provided in the 3 opinions you posted based on circumstantial observations.

Saheb then once again reminded about the key question:
Saheb wrote:
View original post


Still you fail to understand and just treating those personal opinions are holy text. This is the truth of the matter.
Abdi M wrote:
View original post


Once again, those are NOT evidence that is being asked. We accept those answers for what they are.

The doubters also ignored:
Saheb wrote:
View original post


This post should help you realise what the issue is:
Arfatzafar wrote:
View original post


But once again, straight through the heads of the doubters. Ignored and then at this point, ridicule and slander started.

Guest-31384 wrote:
Did Molvi Yasin not say it's these Muftis personal opinion?[/quote]
Yes I did. Please prove why that is wrong. This is my sixth question

Guest-31384 wrote:
What's the personal opinion based on? Their understanding of Shar'iah or their whims & desires na'oodhoobillah?[/quote]
Not to make you sound silly but their personal opinion is based on their "personal opinion". Where do whims and desires fall into this subject, category, question, issue, ruling, fatwa or anything else? If your topi is too tight, please get a bigger one.

[quote="Guest-31384"]What part have I not understood? Be clear & don't skirt around the issue. I'll wait.

You have not understood every single thing posted above. Is that clear enough brother?

[quote="Guest-31384"]Answer the questions & don't divert attention
Alhamdulillah I just have and may Allah forgive you all for wasting so much of everyone's time on this with complete disregard to replies, answers and justifications.

Abu mohammed then highlighted all the key points:
abu mohammed wrote:
View original post

Once again ignored.

Ummi Taalib then covered very similar issues about this but that too was ignored:
ummi taalib wrote:
View original post


Maria al-Qibtiyya wrote:
But I don't understand what you & brother Yasin meant by saying that the fatawa of 3 respected Miftiyan is theirs "personal"opinions. Care to clarify? [/quote]
All clarified above.

[quote="Maria al-Qibtiyya"]Clarify what does the brother mean and why were you siding with him. If he says their fatwas are personal opinion and not based on sharee reason then he clearly means it couldn't be valid fatwas.

You concluded that I clearly mean they couldn't be valid Fatwas? And you concluded that based on what? The fact that I said "personal opinion?" Did you know Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه had personal opinion on matters that Umar رضي الله عنه disagreed with? Would you dare to say one of them was wrong?

My seventh question to the doubters is why is the phrase "personal opinion" so evil in your eyes? Is it Haram to have a personal opinion? Please educate us if we're missing something.

When I highlighted answers to clarify it, it was disliked by the very member who asked for it to be clarified in the first place. This is the extent of the silliness in this thread now.
Yasin wrote:
View original post


If it was disliked due to the last sentence then let me break that down too:

Quote:
The explanation and answers are there (in the available posts in this thread) if one is willing to see it (as many have clearly ignored it and choose to conclude other meanings as demonstrated above) otherwise no amount of explanations will quench (answer) the defence of (us defending) unnecessary, wrongful and out of context offences (such as taking offence on the phrase personal opinion without understanding it) taken from my posts.[/quote]

Abdi M wrote:
Maulana Yasin, you are merely re-posting thinking that your post is self explanatory. May be it is to you, but now there's two of us that interpret what you wrote as negating the position of the 3 Muftis, possibly more senior to you, on the basis that it is only their 'personal opinion.' [/quote]
1. The post is self-explanatory for those who understand the basic concepts of what this entire argument is about. If it's not self-explanatory then one lacks the basic requirements to be arguing about this in the first place. So not understanding my re-posted post is a clear indication that maybe you should not be arguing about something that you clearly have no understanding of. You have a ruling, follow it, don't impose it. That is the beauty of it until you try to analyse it according to one's own limited understanding and forcing it upon the world.

Abdi M wrote:
May I suggest you re-explain yourself properly, because having studied at Uni, & having a decent grasp of English, there seems to me to be a categoric rejection of the Muftis fatwas by a Molvi as if it came from their pocket. [/quote]
I have explained it in detail in this post.

As a Uni student with a decent grasp of English I'd like to remind you that "May be" is one word meaning "perhaps" as two words means "might be". "Categorically" is definitive and I still cannot recall where it was rejected. So you have categorically accused me (by the use of the word 'categorically') of rejecting a Fatwa and accused me of accusing those Ulamaa of making up (from their pocket) rulings?

[quote="Abdi M"]1. Are you saying that the Muftis' fatwas are wrong?

Have I said the Fatwas are "wrong"? If not then why are you asking if I am?

[quote]2 If so, are you qualified to say that they are wrong?

IF I was saying, again "IF" I was saying they're wrong then yes I am qualified to say they are wrong if they were wrong. The doubters should please read the word "IF" many times to realise this sentence is CONDITIONAL.

[quote]3. If you say that they are wrong, please explain clearly why?

I guess this doesn't apply since the IF condition is not met. Meaning I don't say they're wrong so no need to explain. I hope this is clear?

Abdi M wrote:
View original post

Very classy


I conclude with, I have explained whatever is possible although I had no intention to as I know how much time it can waste to explain something which was already clear except to the doubters who could not grasp the concept of conditional, personal opinion and all the key elements highlighted in the over the top lengthy reply. If the replies from doubters does not include answers of the questions I have asked then it will not be permitted on this thread. I have answered every detail as requested. It is only fair you did the same. All unrelated posts (from doubters) will be dealt with according to the rules of the forum. The others are free to post as they wish related to this subject.

Wassalam
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#96 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 00:09
al-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu,

This thread is making me feel embarrassed of why I have joined any Muslim forum till date.

There have been no evidences or usuli-based approaches given to these 3 views nor is it sufficient to be followable. It is as if we are uncomfortable to recognize, appreciate and either agree or disagree with respect when there are other views brought forth backed up with qualified scholarship. Some have been so stringently subjected to and exposed to one view from a dozen others in Islamic Law that anything else automatically goes to the side of deviation and error.

There are many views in the basket that might shock people. For example, for some Shafi'i scholars (re: read highly qualified) going to get groceries, pick up the children from elementary schools, and so forth does not fall under travelling (safar), so they do not require a mahram to drive them around or be with them for these things. There are ample of examples that can be given from the 4 schools, including the Hanafi school, that might cause serious scare to many people but they are valid views that have weight in the schools.

I do not see any point in commenting on this thread but after moderator Yasin commented, I feel that there is a need for everyone of us to look at ourselves and question our motives and approach in answering issues that require a degree of expertise.

I would sincerely advise the moderation staff at Muftisays to have discussions that have balance, respect, qualification and weight, otherwise this forum is no different than a bunch of laymen performing surgery to an injured person without knowing how to use any tools.

Firstly, learning the religion on the computer or on CDs is not sufficient at all, even to know one's individual necessary knowledge (fard 'ayn). There is a difference between knowing it online via institutes like SeekersGuidance or Rayyan Institute than in person. With these online institutes, you know the answer but do not connect with the spiritual side of it. And one cannot limit study to online learning and at the same time discourage online study for men and tell them to seek suhba of scholars. One does not learn via letters (in our days online lessons).

Secondly, the views expressed by Muftis AK Hussain, AS Desai, Salejee, and Elias (may Allah preserve them) does not contain any evidences but rather assumptions that the women seek a loop-hole to go out and then commit sins that equate them to be major sinners. There is no evidence provided for there to be any karaha, let alone of makruh tahrimi, for them to attend the Masjid just for religious talks. That clearly implies that it is prohibited for women to go to Allah's houses for His remembrance (dhikr, spiritual talks etc)! Neither is Bahishti Zewar enough for any Muslim to learn their fard 'ayn.

There is no doubt that are conditions placed by the jurists and they categorize the womenfolk into the elderly and the young who is attractive. However, one cannot assume that the young woman is out there to seduce Muslim men to get them into their beds or to place their bodies in the imaginations of men when they are going to the Masjid to do dhikr (salah) and attend religious talks. When the jurists talked of the dislike in young women attending the Mosque, they were fearful of the scenario where it would create fitnah such as seducing, no lowering of the gaze and so forth. In our day, how many of men, when they attend the Masjid and see some women walking to the Mosque or in the Mosque, picture these women sexually? There might be only a handful of these disturbed men. Most men don't care of fantasizing about a well covered hijabi/niqabi when there are women in bikinis roaming outside in Summer or the free porn available to them on the internet. One must realize between a ruling as stated in the books and when a ruling is applied practically. The latter does not mean that we are disregarding any faqih's view. And since attractiveness is subject to each individual, will every single women be prohibited to attend the Mosque? There is permissibility for women to wear non-black clothing that meets the shari'a requirements and I am sure no man is so weak that the minute he sees a Muslima in any other colour than black, he gets troubled fantasies flashing before his eyes.

I am not insinuating anything against these 3 scholars or others for that matter. I respectfully disagree with their stance and I am a firm believer that majority of the scholars in the west do not conform to their view in the slightest. I believe they are qualified to have whatever view they want but it is going to be held accountable if a expert jurist in any madhhab comes across it and criticizes it with academic proofs.

In the west, as alluded by many, there is a serious need of catering to women in the Mosques and the fact that the other scholars have no makruh tahrmi if women attend Mosques for prayer, let everyone live peacefully and build a community on unity against the injustices the whole Ummah faces by non-Muslim forces.

If one has ego problems of agree to disagree when it comes to non-Hanafi rulings or that it may not confine with the Majlis's views then it is their problem to solve and not ours on a forum nor is it required for these kinds of fatwa's to be posted on forums or spread elsewhere. Completing the iftaa course or any other scholar course does not make one a scholar or a Mufti. Either lock this thread or subject any further replies to be approved first.
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#97 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 02:36
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#98 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 02:48
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#99 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 04:15
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#100 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 06:35
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#101 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 06:39
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#102 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 08:18
السلام عليكم

Calm down guys. I m sure you all have made your concerns very clear.... multiple times.... So give it a break.... :)
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#103 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 08:52
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#104 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 10:01

Anonymous wrote:
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With the greatest respect. The 3 Fatwaas aren't Fatwaas they are personl

With the greatest respect. The 3 Fatwaas aren't Fatwaas they are personal opinion based on extreme prejudice and lack of research.

When it comes to women attending the Mosques then people need to actually and correctly read the life of Sayyida Atika (RA) the wife of Sayydina Umar (RA) and then Sayyidina Zubair (RA) instead of relying on half a narration in Faazail-e-Amaal

Still waiting for someone to take up the challenege and actually post evidence for their position. I used to be of the same opinion UNTIL I actually read and researched into the matter and realised that the Deobandi position is actually cultural and not based on either the Madhab or Qur’aan and Sunnah.

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#105 [Permalink] Posted on 11th September 2014 10:29
Guest posting disabled for this thread.

All replies that continue stirring and do not answer the questions ONLY will be edited or removed without notice. Your own doing believe me. This is Fitnah whether you see it or not.
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