Ash'ari and Deobandi/ Maturidis

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2010 09:14

sorry i dont how the mistakes came about, i'm reposting it...

ok let me put it this way, insha Allah you will understand. The ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah includes the four madhabs (Hanafi, Shaafi'ee, Hanbali and Maaliki) right? Together this mainstream majority group make up the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah.

"Deobandis" follow the fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifa ra. Its a Darul 'Uloom and Allah ta'ala has granted it great acceptance. Obviously as followers of the Hanafi madhab they are of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah.

So you see the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah is not a "sect"... now, other groups which appear from time to time whose beliefs do not adhere to the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah are regarded as "sects" outside of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah i.e. Wahhabis/Salafis and other modern groups we've discussed on the group.

The Barelwis are also "Hanafi" however their beliefs regarding certain matters (as you know) fall short of the beliefs of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah and so there is this difference between the "Deobandi" and "Barelwi" thought.

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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2010 14:06

Thank you.it makes alot of sense now.

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O my Rabb (Cherisher and Sustainer)! Bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous; grant me honorable mention on the tongue of truth among the latest (generations); make me one of the inheritors of the Garden of Bliss.�
(Qur��n 2683-84)

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2010 17:42

There wouldn't have been any need for us to call ourselves Deobandi if the there were no Barelwi's..we would just be called Ahl assunnah wal jama'ath, its just to differentiate ourselves from them as they Falsely claim to follow Ahl assunnah wal jama'ath Hanafi.

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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2010 17:52

i have come across some information that says there is not much different between deobandi and baralavi,i will add the post on to let you know what i mean.

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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 21st April 2010 17:55

You said your self how much shirk,grave worship and bidah they do..post it in the Barelwi topic.

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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 10th June 2010 11:47

sister-in-islam wrote:

The followers of Imaam Abu Mansoor Marturidi are called Marturidi. The Ulama of Deoband are Marturidi.

W-Salam,

With the utmost respect and humility, Ulama of Deoband are not Maturidi.

Here is "Who are Deobandees" from Darul-uloom Deoband's site and it says:

www.darululoom-deoband.com/arabic/index.htm

علماء ديوبند ليسوا أشعرية أو ماتريدية وإنما هم يأخذون بالاعتدال:

أما القضايا الكلامية فقد وقف منها أيضاً علماءُ ديوبند موقف الاعتدال والشمول هذا ؛ فهم سلكوا في المسائل المختلف فيها مسلكَ التوفيق ورفع الخلافات، مكان التجريح والطعن أو الرفض والترك. وهنا ينشأ السؤال أولاً : هل علماء ديوبند يتبعون الإمام أبا الحسن علي الأشعري [المتوفى 324هـ / 936م] أوالإمام محمداً أبا منصور الماتريدي [المتوفى 333هـ / 944م] ؟ والجواب: أنهم في عُرْفِ علماء ديوبند أنفسهم يُعْرَفون بأنهم ما تريديون، ولكن جماعةً منهم ترى أنهم أشعريون. وذلك أولاً لأن مورثهم الأعلى العلمي هو الإمام الشاه ولي الله أحمد بن عبد الرحيم الدهلوي الذي تشف أقواله عن أنه أشعري فهم يرون أنهم أشعريّون؛ وثانيا لأن علماء ديوبند يراعون المسائل الأشعرية في دروسهم ومحاضراتهم وكتاباتهم و خطاباتهم ؛ إلا أن الأحسن - نظراً إلى موقفهم المعتدل المزيج من المذهبين - أن يُوْصَفُوْا بأنهم ما تريديون مائلون إلى الأشعرية ؛ فهم جامعون بين الأشعرية والماتريدة . بل إن دراسة أبحاثهم الجامعة تدلّ على أن الخلافات بين الأشعرية والماتريدية إنما تعود أخيراً خلافات صوريّة . فالمسائل المنصوص عليها لا يمكن أن يحدث فيها خلاف، إنها جميعاً متفق عليها، اللهم إلا الخلاف الذي يقع في عرضها وشرحها وتفسيرها، والذي لا يجوز أن يُسَمّى اختلافاً أساسياً؛ حيث يؤدي ذلك إلى الاتفاق على الغرض. وتبقى هناك قضايا اجتهادية معدودة يوجد بينها تضادّ في ظاهر الأمر ، وهي اثنتا عشرة قضية فيما يقول المحقق الكبير العلامة ابن كما باشا، وقد عدّدها في رسالة له موجزة، وقد يجوز أن تكون هناك قضايا أخرى عند بعض السادة غير هذه القضايا.
فالقضايا المختلف فيها بين الأشعرية والماتريدية قليلة جداً، وأبرزها قضية الحسن والقبح. أي إن الحسن والقبح اللذين يوجدان في الأعمال هما شرعيان أو عقليان. وهذا الاختلاف أدّى إلى الاختلاف في مسائل كلامية أخرى؛ فلو وُجِدَ التوفيق بشكل ما في هذه المسألة ، لارتفع الخلاف عن المسائل المذكورة لحد كبير، ولاجتمع المذهبان على قاسم مشترك، أو قلَّ الخلاف، وأصبح في مكان اللاختلاف.

Thats the whole beauty of Ulama of Deoband that they are dead-smack in the middle and upon the Aqeedah of the Salaf which is Tafweedh Al-Man'a.

deoband.org/2009/01/quran/quran-commentary/he-allah-most-...

the-deen.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=2778&p=13579

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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 10th June 2010 13:07

I had the above translated and basically the Maturidi and Ash'ari thoughts are really one and the same since their differences are nothing major and the subject of 'Ilmul Qalaam is rational thought which in itself allows for differences of opinion.

Both the Imams are of the Ahlus sunnah wal jamaa'ah and if the Deobandi school of thought agrees with either one or both really doesn't make a difference.

I feel this type of discussion should be left out as all of us here are awwaam and it only confuses the issue...i would appreciate Mawlana Yasin's opinion and guidance.

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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 10th June 2010 13:28

ummi taalib wrote:

A laymen has no business indulging into these matters and this isn't like a Madhab so we don't have affiliations (as laymen) to either one of these Schools.

Laymen shouldn't indulge in these discussions at all.

Unfortunately the Salafees have brought this to the forefront and then given Fatwaas of misguidance which confuses the laymen and the matters need to be clarified.

Technically, the two Schools are slightly different and Ulama of Deoband don't really ascribe to either one completely (in general) but within the Ulama Shah Waliullah (RA) ascribed himself to Ashari School (despite being a Hanafi as Hanafees are generally Maturidees) while Sheikh Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehlawi (RA), Shaykh Anwar Shah Kashmiri (RA) were Atharees

In UK Shaykh Abu Yusuf Riyadhul Haq is Athari while Shaykh Saleem Dhorat, Shaykh Maulana Bahauddin Naqshbandi-Mujaddid are more Maturidi leaning.

So this is a matter in which Ulama have always differed and there is room for differing but as a whole deobandees are neither Asharees nor Maturidees.

We say that all three (3) are Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaah i.e.:

a) Atharees
b) Maturidees
c) Asharees

Allah (SWT) knows best.

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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 10th June 2010 16:58

Muadh_Khan wrote:

sister-in-islam wrote:

The followers of Imaam Abu Mansoor Marturidi are called Marturidi. The Ulama of Deoband are Marturidi.

my response was to muadh_khan's very complicated and confusing post. Though interesting and beneficial to know in this climate of Salafi "fatawa", it just confuses the matter among lay people

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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 11th June 2010 07:40

wasalam....my two pence worth...

All i know i am a hanafi and Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaah .i am sorry but i am always confused regarding the names of sects.i dont understand so many names,eg

a) Atharees
b) Maturidees
c) Asharees

Naqshbandi-Mujaddid ,if all are one i dont know why they have put themselves with different names.

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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 11th June 2010 14:00

Dont worry about the finer detail sis, as long as we stick with the Ulama of the Ahlus sunnah wal jama'ah we'll be fine

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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 27th November 2016 15:25

Famous Scholars Of Islam - Ash^aris& Maturidis

(1/1)

Sayfullah:

Let it be clear, that ahlus-sunnah scholars are either asharies or maturidies..
And here are some of those great scholrs

Some of the Asha^irah: Abu Ishaq al-Isfarayiniyy, Abu Nu^aym al-Asbahaniyy, ^Abdul-Wahhab, Shaykh Abu Muhammad al-Juwayniyy,
^Abdul-Malik Abul-Ma^ali al-Juwayniyy Abu Mansur at-Tamimiyy, al-Isma^iliyy, al-Bayhaqiyy, ad-Daraqutniyy,
al-Khatib al-Baghdadiyy, Abul-Qasim al-Qushayriyy and his son Abun-Nasr, Abu Ishaq ash-Shiraziyy, Nasr al-Maqdisiyy
Imam al-Ghazaliyy, Al-Farawiy, Abul-Wafa' Ibn ^Aqil al-Hanbaliyy, The Hanafiyy judge: ad-Damghaniyy.
And Imam Abul-Walid al-Bajiyy, Ahmad ar-Rifa^iyy, Abul-Qasim Ibn ^Asakir, as-Silafiyy, Al-Qadi ^Iyad al-Malikiyy,
Imam an-Nawawiyy, Imam Fakhrud-Din ar-Raziyy, Al-Qurtubiyy, Izzud-Din Ibnu ^Abdis-Salam, Abu ^Amr Ibnul-Hajib,
Al-Qadi Ibnu Daqiq al-^Id.
Also, Imam ^Alaud-Din al-Bajiyy, Taqiyyuddin as-Subkiyy, al-^Alaiyy, Zaynud-Din al-^Iraqiyy,
Ibn Hajar al-^Asqalaniyy, Imam Murtada az-Zabidiyy, Zakariyya al-Ansariyy, Bahaud-Din ar-Rawwas,
Waliyyullah ad-Dahlawiyy, Muhammad ^Ulaysh al-Malikiyy, Shaykh ^Abdullah ash-Sharqawiyy,
Abul Mahasin al-Qawuqjiyy, Imam Husayn al-Jisr at-Tarabulsiyy, Sehikh Abdullah al-Harariyy,
And such as the great Mujahid, Salahud-Din al-Ayyubiyy.
They are the ones that carried the banner of Islam...
Sayfullah:
Ahlus-Sunnah are the righteous group that carries the banner of Islam.
Asharies and Maturidies are lables that were given to scholars that follow the methodology of tow great scholars of Islam; Imam Abulhasan Al-Ashariy and Imam Abu Mansoor Al-Maturidy.
These Great scholars, when many sects emerged, were the ones to confront them by the Islamic and Intellectual Proves. Especially the Ash^ariy, he had ended the fitna of the Mu^tazila at his time.
Asharies are like Imam Nawawiy, Ibn Hajar Al-^asqalani, Al-Bayhaqiy and many many others.
Maturidies, are Followers of Imam Abu Mansoor Al-Maturidi. They are same as Asharies, however they differed in furoo^ issues not in Usool (aqeeda). Maturidies are like Imam Abu Ja^far at-Tahawiy and Imam An-Nasafiy and many others that are from the Hanafy school (Madhehab).
Sayfullah:
Intellectual proves are the proves that comply with the sound mind.
^ilm al Kalam is talking about Allah and his attributes and befits and does not befit the attributes of Allah. To provide evidence to the accuracy of such knowledge, intellectual proves (Adilla ^aqliyah) are used to support that.
EX: Prophet Ibrahim used that kind of knowledge. When he told the worshipers of the Planet, he told them: That's what you claim who my lord is?? Meaning how could that be! Than he said: It disappeared! How could it be a Lord!.
He proved to them that the planets moves and changes, and Allah is clear from such attributes that's why he said "Inni la 'uhibul-'afileen".

Allah knows best.

www.alsunna.org/forum/index.php?topic=374.0

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Ash'ari and Deobandi/ Maturidis

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