Fajr time??

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2012 21:09

SubhanAllah, what a fascinating read from a shia perspective too.

www.al-islam.org/beliefs/practices/fajr.html

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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2012 21:15

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2012 22:03

18 Degrees Subh Sadiq Times FAQS

by Imam Muhammad Shoyaib Nurgat

The issue of the correct time of Subh Sadiq has become particularly prominent this Ramadhan, as there is a difference of around one hour between our Masjid's Subh Sadiq time and that of the surrounding Masajid. Many people have approached me with their concerns which I have Alhamdulillah addressed. I have recorded these Q&A's on paper for distribution, with the hope that it removes any doubt for many people and results in their keeping of their fast at the correct time. First of all, one should be aware that once a person is conscious of the truth then he must not hide it for fear of backlash from the community or anyone else. Suppression of the truth was the reason behind the destruction of many nations before us. The Holy Qur'aan warns of hiding or withholding the truth:

"Who can be more unjust than the one who conceals the testimony he has from Allah?" (2:140)

In the Hadith a very clear warning can be found: "Those who conceal something (a religious truth) that they know when asked about it will have a bridle of fire put on them on the Day of Resurrection." (Abu Dawood/ Tirmidhi)

In light of the above verses and the Hadith one can understand the consequences of suppressing the truth. My respected brothers and sisters, the truth has to be told and people must be guided on the correct method, whether it pleases or displeases someone. Now, let me get to the FAQ's on this issue:

Question: It is common belief that we should follow our local Masajid or Marakiz. Is this way of thinking correct?

Answer: No, it is not correct, as there are only four forms of evidences accepted by our Holy Shariah:

1) The Holy Qur'aan 2) Ahadith 3) Ijmaa e Ummat 4) Qiyaas

Masajid are not part of these FOUR principles. We need to follow what is right in light of the four principles.

Question: The majority of the Masajid are following the Hizb ul Ulama 'Mushahadah' time, so why are we as a minority following a different time?

Answer: I will come on to the Mushahadah timetable later on, but let me tell you: Our Holy Shariah has not deemed the minority or the majority as a criterion for determining truth or falsehood. Rather if one looks at the Qur'aan and Hadith one will clearly see that on many occasions it is the minority that are on the correct path. Let me quote examples of each:

The Holy Qur'aan states: "But few (Qaleelum) of my slaves are grateful." (Surah 34 Verse 13)

"And many of them were 'Fasiqun'." (Katheerum) (Surah 57 Verse 16)

A Hadith of Prophet (sallahu alayhi wassallam) states: "There will always be a 'Taa'ifah' (group) from my Ummah that will be helped on the truth, their enemies will not be able to harm them, until the order of Allah arrives,

(meaning Qiyamah)." Sahih Bukhari/Muslim

Those familiar with the Arabic language are aware that 'Taa'ifah' means a small group. Therefore, this Hadith clarifies that a minority group, even if it is one individual, can be on the path of truth, even if the whole world is opposed to them. Through the Qur'aanic verses and the Hadith one can conclude that the self made criterion that, 'the majority is Haq, whereas the minority is wrong and Baatil', is indeed false and incorrect.

Question: Why can't we follow the Hizb ul Ulama 'Mushahadah' timetable like the rest, so our Suhoor can also be one hour later?

Answer: It is not correct to follow that time for many reasons. Let me explain:

The Holy Qur'aan has declared the time of Subh Sadiq thus:

"Eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread". (Al Baqarah 2:187)

The time for Subh Sadiq is at the crack of dawn or the first speck of light on the eastern horizon, after which darkness ends and the light of morning spreads. The majority of the Fuqaha/Jurists have preferred the crack of dawn to be the time of Subh Sadiq. The fatwa given in the Hanafi Madhab is also on this opinion. (Fataawa Shaami 1:357)

All the scholars of the past and present have practised this opinion.

The Hizb ul Ulama timetable, in which Suhoor ends one hour after our time table, is claimed to be based on the time when the light of Subh Sadiq spreads and covers the horizon. This is known as 'Tabyeen'. Acting upon Tabyeen is bad enough as it is against caution. In matters of obligatory Ibaadat, caution is of great importance. Further, I use the word 'claimed' as in reality there are many problems attached with the so called 'Mushahadah'; Mushahadah means 'visual observation'. People have been led to believe that the Hizb ul Ulama times have been set after a year long observation of Subh Sadiq. This is far from the truth. According to their own writings only fifty days of observation were carried out and out of fifty, only ELEVEN days are recorded. There were NO observations for the months of January, April and July.

Can a timetable in which 315 days of observation, including THREE whole months , were missed out, be deemed a timetable of Mushahadah? How and according to what criteria were the other Subh Sadiq times fixed? No satisfactory, Shariah compliant, explanation has been provided by Hizb ul Ulama on this issue to date.

Correspondence on this issue is available upon request.

Another problem with the Hizb ul Ulama times are that they themselves are not following their own observed times!

As I said earlier, only 11 observations are recorded. Out of the 11 observations, the observations carried out on May 15th, May 21st, May 25th , 6 th , June, 13th June, 7 th August and 16 th August DO NOT match the times they have given to the Masajid to announce. If the Hizb ul Ulama do not have confidence in their own observations, how can they expect the learned Ulama to go against the Subh Sadiq times agreed upon and observed by the majority of Ulama and astronomers throughout the centuries?

The conclusion is that we are not following the claimed Hizb ul Ulama 'Mushahadah' timetable because:

A) It contradicts its own observations

B) There were no observations made throughout the majority of the year

C) The times have been set according to a formula not acceptable in our Holy Shariah

D) The observations of Blackburn, Lancashire cannot be used to fix the Subh Sadiq times throughout the UK

Let me end this question on the conclusion of an answer given by Chief justice Hadhrat Mufti Taqi Uthmani Saheb DB when he was sent this Hizb ul Ulama 'Mushahadah' timetable for approval/endorsement:

1. Shafaq e Abyadh occurs when the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon as does Subh Sadiq. This is the opinion of (Quote) the majority of Ulama and those acquainted with the knowledge of astronomy. There are some who hold the opinion that Shafaq e Abyadh occurs when the Sun is 15 degrees below the horizon.

2. The Mushahadah times you have sent are even BEFORE the time of 15 degrees. Hence (quote) THIS CAN NEVER BE CORRECT. Subh Sadiq occurs before your Mushahadah times.

3. An explanation is given as to why this mistake has occurred in the Mushahadah (visual observations). (Quote) "The changing of seasons, not having the experience of doing Mushahadah and not having the full knowledge of Subh Sadiq has led to this mistake. Hence PREPARE A TIMETABLE ACCORDING TO 18 Degrees and follow that".

4. "Yes, it is correct that the time span between Subh Sadiq and Sunrise is the same as the time span between sunset and Shafaq e Abyadh." (Original Fatwa available on request)

Question: So what about the times you are following; where did you get them from and what makes them correct?

Answer: The Subh Sadiq time adopted by Masjid e Umer is based on the research of hundreds of years. First of all, let me quote Allamah Shaami RA, the authority in the field of Fatawa whom every Mufti quotes to authenticate their Fatwa. He has advocated 18 degrees to 19 Degrees as the time of Subh Sadiq. (See Radd ul Mukhtaar, Vol 2, Pg 93)

Various institutes that are referred to for the Fajr and Isha times currently in use in many countries consider 18 degrees as the minimum degree for calculating Fajr time. For example, Muslim World League (MWL), Umm al-Qura, Makkah, and the University of Islamic Sciences, Karachi. The present day timetable of Darul Uloom Deoband is based on 18 degrees. It is a known fact that the majority of the Muslim World have based their Subh Sadiq times on 18 Degrees. Apart from this, great scholars such as the likes of Sheikh ul Hind, Hadhrat Maulana Mufti Mahmud ul Hasan Saheb RA, Hadhrat Maulana Khalil Ahmad Saharanpuri Saheb RA, Hadhrat Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi Saheb RA, Allamah Yusuf Binnori RA and many other renowned Ulama have endorsed the Subh Sadiq time based on the sun being 18 degrees below the horizon. The fatwa above shows that one of the most authentic authorities of this era, Hadhrat Mufti Taqi Uthmani Saheb DB, is also of this view. In 1983, in front of many Ulama, a unanimous decision was reached in a gathering headed by the late Mufti e Aazam Hind Hadhrat Mufti Mahmood ul Hasan Saheb Gangohi RA that Shafaq e Abyadh occurs when the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon, as does Subh Sadiq. This agreement was countersigned by the late Hadhrat Mufti Maqbool Ahmad Saheb of Glasgow, who was one of the most senior Muftis of the UK at the time.

Question: My knowledge tells me that Mushahadah takes precedent over an Astronomy based time. Is this correct?

Answer: Yes this is correct. This is the reason why Ulama over the years have undertaken the task of Mushahadah/ visual observation throughout the world. Their observations have matched the times of 18 Degrees. Such observations have been carried out here in the UK in places such as Glasgow, London, Batley and Preston and is currently taking place in Walton-on-Naze in Essex by the London Ulema

And Allah knows best.

This is a very brief article. Gain in-depth knowledge on this issue by visiting: www.wifaqululama.co.uk

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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 10th July 2012 22:12

"Yasin" wrote:

"abu mohammed" wrote:

I've been told not to discuss this with a particular masjid as it may cause fitnah.

To me, the real Fitnah is in not discussing it with the Masjid

Taken from above.... First of all, one should be aware that once a person is conscious of the truth then he must not hide it for fear of backlash from the community or anyone else. Suppression of the truth was the reason behind the destruction of many nations before us. The Holy Qur'aan warns of hiding or withholding the truth:"Who can be more unjust than the one who conceals the testimony he has from Allah?" (2:140)In the Hadith a very clear warning can be found: "Those who conceal something (a religious truth) that they know when asked about it will have a bridle of fire put on them on the Day of Resurrection." (Abu Dawood/ Tirmidhi)In light of the above verses and the Hadith one can understand the consequences of suppressing the truth.

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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 06:08

This is such an unfortunate situation. really upsets and winds me up.

Time line of Ramadhan becoming a farce!!!

First theirs issues on when is shabebarat,
Moon sighting for start of Ramadhan,
Now Time of Suhoor
Future Time of Iftaar
Number of rakaats in Taraweeh
Number of fasts
Moon sighting for Eid - ul - fitr

I wonder whats next.......

RAMADHAN is just becoming a joke!

and the list for other months is also a joke.

now time of fajr
muqalid or ghair muqalid
future time for zuhr
future time for Maghrib
future time for Isha
future Are you even a muslim.....
future It there even a sun?.....
future Are we even on Planet earth or are we in a dreamscape like the Matrix.....

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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 12:14

no need to over egg it brother.

only two issues: subha sadiq times (in summer months) and helal issue. And no need to say "now" ..these issues have been here in UK for decades, we're only aware now as u/i we're probs in Pampers the last time fasts we're in summer months or we even heard of 'questionable' helal news from the Saudi ...

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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 12:36

assalamu alaykum

i know its a bit off the subject but iv sat in a gathering not hanafi group

they said in a hadith that the narrator a shabi ate suhr with the nabi (saw)

and when the 2nd adhan was done they stop eating and stood up for pray.. does anyone know about this. Only ask as our local masjid is closed for refurb and all the brothers goign this masjid

these brothers are not salafi or a madhabi.. they pray 20 rakats for tarawee

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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 12:58

"Daywalk3r" wrote:

u/i we're probs in Pampers the last time fasts we're in summer months or we even heard of 'questionable' helal news from the Saudi ...

I remember as a young kid, I would fast during the summer time too. I remember after Taraweeh we would sit for lectures, come home, eat, do Fajar and then sleep. Its going to be the same for my son too, only its not fard upon him yet. I feel so sorry for him.

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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 13:04

"Anonymous" wrote:

assalamu alaykum i know its a bit off the subject but iv sat in a gathering not hanafi group they said in a hadith that the narrator a shabi ate suhr with the nabi (saw)

and when the 2nd adhan was done they stop eating and stood up for pray.. does anyone know about this. Only ask as our local masjid is closed for refurb and all the brothers goign this masjid these brothers are not salafi or a madhabi.. they pray 20 rakats for tarawee

Asslamo Allaikum Brother,

It is very difficult to understand you are asking from your text so if my answer is wrong I apologise and please clarify.

It is the unanimous opinion in Islam that fasting starts from TRUE DAWN:

[2:187] It is made lawful for you, in the nights of fasts, to have sex with your women. They are apparel for you, and you are apparel for them. Allah knows that you have been betraying yourselves, so He relented towards you and pardoned you. So now you can have sexual intimacy with them and seek what Allah has destined for you and eat and drink until the white thread of the dawn becomes distinct from the black thread; then complete the fast up to the night. But do not have sexual intimacy with them while you are staying in mosques for Itikaf. These are the limits set by Allah, so do not go near them. Thus Allah manifests His signs to the people, so that they may be God-fearing.

There are two DAWNs and the person needs to continue past FALSE DAWN and stop at TRUE DAWN:

حدثنا ‏ ‏شيبان بن فروخ ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الوارث ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الله بن سوادة القشيري ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏والدي ‏ ‏أنه سمع ‏ ‏سمرة بن جندب ‏ ‏يقولا ‏ ‏سمعت ‏ ‏محمدا ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏لا يغرن أحدكم نداء ‏ ‏بلال ‏ ‏من السحور ولا هذا البياض حتى ‏ ‏يستطير ‏

Samura b. Jundub (RA)reported Allah's Messenger (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) as saying: The Adhan of Bilal should not mislead you nor the whiteness (of the pillar) of dawn, for it is not the whiteness of the true dawn, but that of the false dawn which is vertical like a pillar and you can eat food till the streaks of whiteness spread like it. [Muslim]

This may OR may not be time for Fajar Adhan!

Many communities call Fajar Adhan a little later while some call it BANG ON so you need to clarify from your Mosque committee as to what the policy is for calling Adhan? Is it TRUE DAWN Adhan, is it called staright away etc?

Did the Sahaba (RA) ate after Adhan?

It was the noble practise of our Nabi (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) that two Adhans were often given in his beloved Masjidun-Nabawi (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam):

Adhan of Sayyidina Bilal (RA) which was EARLY
Adhan of Sayyidina Ibn Umm Maktoom (RA) which was TRUE DAWN

كُلُوا وَاشْرَبُوا حَتَّى يُؤَذِّنَ ابْنُ أُمِّ مَكْتُومٍ ، فَإِنَّهُ لا يُؤَذِّنُ حَتَّى يَطْلُعَ الْفَجْرُ

Sayyidina 'Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (RA) reported that the Messenger of Allah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) had said: Bilal (RA) would pronounce Adhan (at the fag end of the night in order to inform the people about the time of the Sahri). So you eat and drink till you hear the Adhan of Sayyidina Ibn Umm Maktum (which was pronounced at the conclusion of the Sahri and the commencement of the fast) [Muslim]

How beatiful was our Nabi (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and His Sahaba (RA)! SUBHANULLAH!!!

Sayyidina Ibn Umm Maktum (RA) was BLIND (as we well know) so there is no way he could have checked whether true dawn had arrived or not so he must have been informed so the lesson in this is our dear and beloved Sayyidina Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and Sahaba (RA) observed and then informed him (so there is no chance of error) and THEN it was communicated to him and THEN he carried out the Adhan.

Even appointing a Blind Sahabi (RA) for a job is full of wisdom because the roles could have been reversed and Sayyidina Ibn Umm Maktum (RA) to call the first Adhan (people keep eating) and Sayyidina Bilal (RA) to call the second Adhan for people to STOP!

Conclusion of eating after Adhan?

The Authentic Hadeeth of Saheeh Muslim categorically proves that a person CANNOT eat after Adhan of TRUE DAWN but if its not the Adhan of TRUE DAWN then the person can eat.

Please pay attention to the text in RED.

Jazakullah Khairun

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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 13:13

As a kid I remember walking back home from my local masjid with the masjids Chairman and Masjids Imam (at that time) to a local house after magrhib to watch Sky's live esha from Makkah - if Shaykh Sudais (ha) stood up for tarawi after Esha we walked off straightaway (and calls ,if i remember correctly, were made to announce start of ramdhan in my local masjid). If he didn't stand then we'd wait for some exra mins, about 10-15mins , to be sure that he wasnt going to start tarawi hence Ramdhan hasn't started that night then calls were made to that effect) . And thats how used to decide helal news them days ....calling Hizbul etc ...heck never came into minds. Though im sure at times ,i assume they did call Hizb etc but on that occasion thats what happened ..

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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 13:20

"Daywalk3r" wrote:

As a kid I remember walking back home from my local masjid with the masjids Chairman and Masjids Imam (at that time) to a local house after magrhib to watch Sky’s live esha from Makkah – if Shaykh Sudais (ha) stood up for tarawi after Esha we walked off straightaway (and calls ,if i remember correctly, were made to announce start of ramdhan in my local masjid). If he didn’t stand then we’d wait for some exra mins, about 10-15mins , to be sure that he wasnt going to start tarawi hence Ramdhan hasn’t started that night then calls were made to that effect) . And thats how used to decide helal news them days ....calling Hizbul etc ...heck never came into minds. Though im sure at times ,i assume they did call Hizb etc but on that occasion thats what happened ..

Even today most Mosques and Commitees ask people, "Is Taraweeh coming from Haram on TV?"

This is the greatest damage to the credibility & reliance of Ulamah. And people just watch TV and make up their minds and don't bother with announcements etc.

And even the consultations behind the scenes are nothing but a farce.

I emphatically know that many Ulamah/Committees rely on TV transmission of Tarwaeeh
Hizbul-Ulamah have a shody web-site no communication strategy so even if you want to follow them most of the time they can't.

There are Mureeds of Mashaykh on this forum who think that they follow Ulamah on moonsighting. Fact is its TV transmission of Taraweeh in majority of cases and then the justification of following Ulamah is attached to it after the fact.

Jazakullah Khairun

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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 13:34

I noticed another fitna last year, since its kind of related!

We were invited for Iftar one day. The host broke their fast according to the radio which transmits from 15 miles away but gives the timing from a mosque about 10 miles away. SubhanAllah, we just waited for our local time and broke our fast accordingly as it was less than 3 miles away. It was very funny because there were others there from outside too and they didint know what to do. Eventually half broke their fast with the host and the other half waited for me. It was evident that they all took it as some kind of game which really got me going.

Soon these people will be offering their Salah according to these radios and TV channels that transmit worldwide.
There will be a local hall setup with a big black box, (not the Kabah, rather a TV) and it will be advertised that Shaikh Sudais will lead Taraweeh live in the sports hall and everyone will come and pray behind Sudais.

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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 13:41

Muadh_Khan
A big thank you and jazakallah kirun... clear thing up with your message

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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 13:41

cleared thing up with your message

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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 11th July 2012 13:44

"abu mohammed" wrote:

I noticed another fitna last year, since its kind of related! We were invited for Iftar one day. The host broke their fast according to the radio which transmits from 15 miles away but gives the timing from a mosque about 10 miles away. SubhanAllah, we just waited for our local time and broke our fast accordingly as it was less than 3 miles away. It was very funny because there were others there from outside too and they didint know what to do. Eventually half broke their fast with the host and the other half waited for me. It was evident that they all took it as some kind of game which really got me going. Soon these people will be offering their Salah according to these radios and TV channels that transmit worldwide. There will be a local hall setup with a big black box, (not the Kabah, rather a TV) and it will be advertised that Shaikh Sudais will lead Taraweeh live in the sports hall and everyone will come and pray behind Sudais.

There are Masajid which have HUGE TV's in Sisters section and they visually follow the Imam during Salah (upstairs). I am not kidding!!!

The Ta'weel made is that in the Madhab of Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal (RA) the follower must be able to see the Imam (or another follower who is following the Imam) and since the Sisters are physically distant from the Imam a mechanism must be devised for them to see the Imam.

I wonder what we will do next!!!!!

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