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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 14th July 2022 19:08

Yup i understand what you're saying.
I would not bring up ulama or speakers of either side, safer option for me and besides, i try to do da'wah in subtle ways : )
Anyway, this topic was for my own peace of mind. Alhamdulillah found it

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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 14th July 2022 19:26

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This is a topic I am interested in so I will elaborate on my answer. Many members may already know this stuff but for someone who is not too familiar it may help them navigate issues like this. This is all from a Deobandi perspective as I align myself with the Deobandi school. I have used the term "Deobandi" for ease otherwise I consider Deobandi and Ahl Sunnat one and the same.

Short Answer: Shaykh Asrar Rashid is definitely a Barelvi. No doubt about that. I would advise most people to not listen to him unless you are well-versed in the matters were we differ with Barelvis, so to not adopt any wrong views. However Shaykh Asrar cannot be compared to Imran Hosein. Imran Hosein's deviance is on a level where it is hard to say that he even qualifies as a Muslim.

Detailed Answer:

Who is a Barelvi?

The most basic thing is to understand what a "Barelvi" is.
Barelvi is referred to people in the subcontinent or of subcontinental origin who have the following three characteristics:

1) Accuse Ulama Deoband of blasphemy.

2) Differ with Deobandis in some creedal/Aqeedah matters mainly pertaining to the qualities of Nabi (saw)

such as Omnipresence (Hazir Nazir), Knowledge of the Unseen (Ilm Ghaib) etc.

3) Carry out some practices which Deobandis' consider incorrect and Bidat such as Urs, some forms of Milad etc.

Point 1 i.e. accusing Ulama e Deoband of blasphemy does cause anger among Deobandis as it is an emotional matter however that in itself does not make the Barelvis misguided if they genuinely (though incorrectly) believe that Ulama e Deoband are guilty of these blasphemous statements. This is a major cause of Deobandi-Barelvi dispute though.

Point 2 i.e. The issue of creedal differences is serious. Among Barelvis, different scholars have expressed their beliefs on these matters in different ways, so Deobandi Ulama have had different opinions. Some expressions of Barelvi Aqeedah have been considered to be on the level of Shirk/Kufr by Deobandi Ulama, others have been deemed misguidance which expels one out of the fold of Ahl Sunnah but not Islam. Yet at other instances some Barelvi ulama have explained their Aqeedah in a manner that Deobandi scholars have consodered it a linguistic difference i.e difference in the choice of words used for expressing the Aqeedah as opposed to any significant real difference.

Point 3 i.e. practices is again a difference of opinion but that of course is not the same level of seriousness as Aqeedah. That said Bidat has been harshly condemned in Islam so if an act is declared to be Bidat then one should abstain from it.

All in all, generally the Deobandis have not declared the Barelvis to be out of the fold of Islam although they are considered deviant. Most of the "Barelvi public" most likely do not even have the views that their scholars have.

It is worth mentioning that outside of the subcontinent (in Middle East, Africa etc.) there are "Sunnis" who do not call themselves Barelvi however their beliefs and practices are similar to Barelvis. Some may be even more extreme than Barelvis. However those people may not accuse Ulama Deoband of blasphemy as they are not aware of this matter.

Is Shaykh Asrar a Barelvi?

Yes, 100%. Because all three characteristics (Points 1,2,3) are found within him. He also has great admiration for Barelvi Ulama including the founder Maulana Ahmed Raza Khan.

Why doesn't Shaykh Asrar call himself a Barelvi?

Shaykh Asrar just calls himself Ahl Sunnat. The main point is to show that the Barelvi is not a distinct sect rather they are what Ahl Sunnat has been for all these centuries. The Barelvis in general also refer to themsleves as "Ahl Sunnat" more often than referring to themselves as "Barelvi".
(Similarly, the Deobandis including myself consider Deobandi school to be Ahl Sunnat and not a new sect, we just use the Deobandi term for differentiation).

Shaykh Asrar correcting the Barelvis

It is true, and one member also pointed out, that Shaykh Asrar has called out practices within the Barelvi community such as Tawaf around graves etc. Keep in mind that every wrong practice that you see among illiterate people who are considered to be Barelvis, is not actually the position of Barelvi ulama themselves. For instance, Maulana Ahmed Raza Khan considered it prohibited to prostrate to graves. Any educated Barelvi Alim will agree but among the juhala you see all kinds of things.

Shaykh Asrar has also called out some other wrongs within Barelvis which is admirable.

Should Shaykh Asrar be listened to?

Shaykh Asrar seems to be an academically sound scholar. However for a layperson I would recommend to avoid him. Even though it is highly likely that most of the stuff he says is agreed upon between Deobandis and Barelvis, there will likely be issues he touches upon on which Deobandis and Barelvis differ. A layperson does not have sound knowledge and proper judgement so he/she can be mislead into believing things which are deviance at some level, and can open up the path to Shirk/Kufr in some cases. Again, this is not a Kufr or Shirk fatwa on Shaykh Asrar or Barelvis.

Another thing which usually happens when you start listening to or reading a person (that you understand is deviant on some level). That after some period of time you start developing a liking for that person and then your mind slowly opens up to accepting the deviancies as well. This is based on experience as well as advised by Ulama.

Last point:
Can the Deobandi - Barelvi dispute be resolved? Yes, but it seems highly unlikely that it will materialize. Not getting into this topic now.

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 14th July 2022 21:06

muslimman wrote:

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I am very grateful for the time you have taken. Jazaakallaahu khayraa
Very informative and very much appreciated.

Quote:

Not getting into this topic now.

Please when time allows. I would be very interested

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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 14th July 2022 21:55

ummi taalib wrote:

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Please also search for Barelwi as there is already a lot of information on this forum regarding their belief, references and so on.

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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 14th July 2022 23:31

ummi taalib wrote:

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I am glad it helped.
Insha Allah at some point in the future I can write something about Deobandi-Barelvi differences and possible unity.

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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 14th July 2022 23:33

abu mohammed wrote:

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I remember a thread from several years ago where Muadh Khan and Mufti Abu Bilal sahab were arguing about the level of deviance of Barelvis. Mufti Abu Bilal sahab had a particularly strict view due to his research.

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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 15th July 2022 07:40

Now that asrar rashid issue has been resolved, i must say i have started noticing that barelvis in the UK have started getting more professionalised or that just might be my impression from social media. Barelvis in the UK were often seen as jahil and backwards but now you are seeing lot of their British born English speaking alims coming up. Dawate islami seems to be very active aswell and they also have ditched green turban and adopted white.

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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 15th July 2022 07:46

abu mohammed wrote:

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Many years ago I read a couple of booklets on Barelwism and Shiaism know just the very basics. I think I need to read up details. On islamicteachings we have some articles by scholars I could read up insha-allah

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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 15th July 2022 07:49

Rajab wrote:

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Just to add this does not mean they are no longer deviants but they are fighting fire with fire.

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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 15th July 2022 07:57

ummi taalib wrote:

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Take a look here www.muftisays.com/forums/76-the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/59...

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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 15th July 2022 08:24

abu mohammed wrote:

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Insha-allah will look at this and look what I found on islamicteachings. I worked on this in 2015 but I need to go back to it!
Old age ) :

www.islamicteachings.org/forum/topic/22360-deobandi-barel...

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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2022 11:21

As-Salaam Alaykum.

Asrar Rashid is local to me and we both grew up in the same neighbourhood in Birmingham. AIbeit I am a generation older then him.

He is Barelvi his primary Studies were at a local Barelvi Madrassah he completed his studies in Syria.

He fully endorses the fatwa of Kufr against the Elders of Deoband.

When he first graduated from his studies and started getting a profile on social media youtube. He was very militant and belligerent in his speeches against Deobandis and Tabligh Jamaat sending out challenges to Deobandis to debate with him. Calling on his followers to dis-associate with Deobandis not interact with them in any shape or form.

He has evolved over the years, some where along the line he realised that many Barelvi youth were being inclined towards Salafism. So for a while his focus was on refuting Salafis. He developed a reputation for his refutations.

He has in subsequent years focused on refuting various deviants Qadiyanis, Shia, engaged in debates with Christians etc.

In more recent years he seems to come to the conclusion that crime gangs, drugs various social issues , and Secularism, Atheism, Feminism, LGBQT represent a greater threat for the younger generation. And expanded in refuting those ideologies.

And to his credit he has refuted deviant Sufis and Peers from amongst the ranks of the barelvis as well.

He does not call himself Barelvi but then again Barelvi Ulema rarely if ever use the term "Barelvi". They always refer to themselves as Sunni or Ahle Sunnah Jamaat. Most of my family are Brarelvi and majority of them have never heard of the term Barelvi. If you use the term Barelvi when conversing with an average Barelvi layperson you will get a blank expression and they will not have a clue what you are talking about.

The average Barelvi is only familiar with the terms Sunni and Wahabi. And Sunni is themselves and Wahabi is synonymous with everyone else, that is Salafis, Ahle Hadith, Deobandis, Jamaat e Islami, Ikhwan al Muslimeen are all pigeon holed together as 'Wahabi'.

Asrar Rashid describes himself as Ashari and Sunni. Never as Barelvi.

Over the last years 20 years or so the Barelvis have been sending their madrassah graduates in Syria mainly. But also Al Azhar, Yemen, Morocco etc.
That is another reason were they emphasise always describing themselves Sunni is to portray themselves as sharing the same core principles and beliefs as the wider Ummah not to differentiate themselves. By using the term Barelvi.

And you are right there is subterfuge used not only by Asrar Rashid. But most of their younger generation of Scholars who graduated in the Middle East. When they are asked will say they are Sunni and Follow the Scholars of Shaam etc. Never use the term barelvi or refer to themselves as Barelvi.

If they do use the term Barelvi it is in reference to Jahil Sufis and Peer followers from amongst their own ranks. And to dis-associate themselves from those they regard as Jahils..... That is another reason in not using the term Barelvis the term Barelvi has become synonymous with Jahil Sufis.

Furthermore the Barelvis in their travels from as far east to Malaysia and Indonesia to as far west as morocco and all the places in between have in their travels introduced themselves to the Ummah as simply Sunni Hanafi and have achieved wider acceptance whilst the Deobandis have paraded themselves aroung the world as Deobandis.

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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2022 17:22

Very informative brother. At one point I felt guilty of thinking the shaykh as being "dishonest" for not openly saying he was barelwi whgen asked. Feel better after reading your post
Jazaakallaahu khayraa

Quote:

Most of my family are Brarelvi and majority of them have never heard of the term Barelvi. If you use the term Barelvi when conversing with an average Barelvi layperson you will get a blank expression and they will not have a clue what you are talking about.

The average Barelvi is only familiar with the terms Sunni and Wahabi. And Sunni is themselves and Wahabi is synonymous with everyone else, that is Salafis, Ahle Hadith, Deobandis, Jamaat e Islami, Ikhwan al Muslimeen are all pigeon holed together as 'Wahabi'.

I agree, not that Ive ever used the term when talking with my neighbours but i have been once or twice asked if i was wahabi!

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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2022 17:02

Mufti Saeed Khan Sahab HA of Pakistan has a prescription for the modern generation who feel conflicted by the Deobandi-Barelvi divide. He suggests to go back to the scholars that both Deobandi and Barelvi ulama consider reliable, right from the Salaf (Imam Abu Hanifa RA, Imam Maturidi RA, Imam Tahawi RA, and others) all the way to Imam Ahmad Sirhindi RA and Shah Waliullah RA.

No two groups of Muslims are closer to each other than the Deobandis and Barelvis. They have common ancestry, ethnicity, culture, geography, and language. They have the same isnad (academic lineage) in Fiqh asghar (Imam Abu Hanifa RA), Fiqh akbar (Imam Tahawi RA) and Hadith (Imam Shah Waliullah RA), and they follow the same chains (salasil) in tasawwuf (Qadiri, Chishti, Suhrawardi, and Naqshbandi). They all trace their origins to the same region in northern India, which is the erstwhile United Provinces in pre-independence India.

Of course, one could argue that Qadiyanis also share all of these aspects, except that the kufr (disbelief) of Qadiyanis is agreed upon by all Muslim scholars of the subcontinent, because of their challenge to the khatme e nubuwwat (seal of prophethood). Lahori Qadiyanis are sometimes exempted from this ruling because they do not consider Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani to be a prophet, but a reviver (mujaddid).

Before the advent of Maulana Ahmad Raza Khan, the Muslims of India were represented by the various sajjada nasheen (caretakers) of the various khanqahs in the Indian subcontinent, such as Lahore (Ali Hujwiri RA), Ajmer (Moinuddin Chishti RA), Kichaucha (Makhdoom Semnani RA), Maner (Sharfuddin Yahya RA), Marehra (Shah Barkatullah RA), and many others. They all referred to themselves, and continue to refer to themselves as Sunnis. Most of these Sunnis, who make up the majority of the Muslim population in the subcontinent, do not share Maulana Ahmad Raza Khan's enthusiasm for takfeer of Deobandi ulama. It is only the seminaries that are established by the students and descendants of Maulana Ahmad Raza Khan that still cling to his fatwa of takfeer.

Many brothers have rightly pointed out that the younger generation, especially the educated among them, are distancing themselves from extreme sectarianism.

As brother Muslim Man pointed out, it is an issue of interpretation of texts by the ulama.

Some Sunni (Barelvi) ulama interpret writings of certain Deobandi ulama to contain blasphemy.

Some Sunni (Deobandi) ulama interpret writings of certain Barelvi ulama to contain shirk (polytheism) and bidat (innovation).

It is a welcome sign when traditional scholars such as Asrar Rashid distance themselves from extremist takfiri ideology and start speaking up on contemporary issues that Muslims find themselves struggling with.

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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 20th July 2022 02:23

abuzayd2k wrote:

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A few things that I want to add:

1) The Lahori Qadianis are also 200% Kaafir as are the other Qadianis. No doubt or difference of opinion about this. Believing Mirza Qadiani to be a Mujaddid is also Kufr of the highest order.

2) Mufti Saeed Khan is very knowledgeable however his detailed lecture on Barelvi-Deobandi differences does contain inconsistencies and contradictions. His intention cannot be doubted, and neither can his overall knowledge. (He does have some views different from majority of Deobandi Ulama but that is not relevant right now)

3) It is true that the Deobandi - Barelvi dispute is most unfortunate because as you mentioned that both sects agree on Usool (Ashari/Maturidi) , Furoo (Hanafi Fiqh) and Tasawuf (the four well-known paths especially). Up until Shah Waliullah (R.A) they also agree upon all major Islamic personalities (barring one or two exceptions which are insignificant).

4) The youth of today cannot be advised to avoid the Deobandi-Barelvi dispute by referring to the works of earlier, agreed upon personalities. The youth simply are not qualified for this task which involves dealing with mostly Arabic and somewhat Persian texts and requiring one to have studied the Islamic sciences for years under the guidance of qualified Ulama.

5) If anything the senior Ulama from both sects can come forward and settle their differences in light of Usool, Furoo and Tasawwuf from the works of earlier, agreed upon personalities. In fact, Shaykh Asrar Rashid himself has mentioned this in response to a question in one of his interviews. He particularly mentioned Hanafi Fiqh and Maturidi theology. (I doubt this will actually happen although I really wish it would)

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