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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 17:04

As-salaamu `alaykum

Agreed with brother Muadh on keeping contact with sisters. It can serve as an outlet as well as emotional support.

Disagree on the age-old and irrelevant rant against Deoband/UK scholars and the outrageous assumption about me....

Also, sisters have the option of contacting a body of `ulamaa to do tanseekh-e-nikah. Physical abuse is definitely grounds for annulment and the `ulamaa are sure to take her side.

I would not recommend khul`a. Why should the wife give her abusive husband anything to be free? Most husbands who are abusive will usually not even accept khul`a, so annulment is the only option left.

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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 17:21

Taalibah wrote:

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Unfortunately some will not seek even this kind of assistance. The one or two I've met are timid, scared and fear more for their parents than themselves. One I know of is a woman of strength and works hard for Deen. To talk to her you'd think she wouldn't take such abuse yet she does. Despite being brought up here and having family and friends she will not publicise her predicament.

@ Brother Muadh: Yes the "hazrats" (As you call them - I wish you could just use the term "Mashaikh" or something!) would not just be too busy to deal with it long term but the women do not actually need to be in touch with them for this specific matter (unless its to seek advice on the spiritual aspect) - rather they would need a mufti to tell them whats their shar'ee position is. Then if they do not ask for help from elders then they need women to sympathise, empathise, give them encouragement and most importantly, to make them understand how to make the most of their fated situation by turning to Allah subhaanahu wata'ala. For this a relationship needs to be built. How is a shaykh or 'aalim going to do that? then there will be bros on forums criticising them for too much contact with women right?

So for what i've outlined, you don't need masjid events or socialising, as these women are not likely to speak of these matters in front of other women are they? So I agree with this point:

Quote:

Most Sisters in these cases need reassurance and someone to speak to, a fellow Muslim Sister who is available via text/WhatsApp

Experienced, older 'Aalimahs would be better

Apart from reassuring the sisters, my question is: How to stop the violence in their lives? How to get to the men and make them understand the sunnah way of treating a wife? He is not likely to sit in a ta'leem or contact a Shaykh or an Imam is he?

The answer to this inshaAllah could be the answer for these women

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 17:49

ummi taalib wrote:

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I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree domestic violence isn't the area of experienced alimahs or alims or mashaikh.

Professionals qualified and experienced with dealing in these issues are required, it's not a religious matter, Muslims involved in domestic violence are already aware of what isn't allowed in Islam, so it's definitly not an issue that can be fixed by religion.

In the trained profession an abuser normally suffers from self delusion, denial and split personality, and mental health issues that cannot even be helped through the normal CBT, counselling, but would require more mental health treatment.

Women tend not to seek help until it's too late, some even death, many return to the same partner only to return to a worse situation.

Many women are advised by elders and ulema to reconcile, and encouraged by friends and family to either return or carry on practising Sabr to reap the rewards of Sabr.

How sad....I have met women who have been left black and blue, covered in blood, denied access to medical care, some have not made it and have died. Children who grow up in such issues are permanently mentally and psychologically damaged.

If a woman needs help she has to take the first move and do it for herself and her children...because nobody can make that decision for her.

Once again this isn't something our respected Ulama can deal with or are trained to deal with.

Seperation isn't even the end of abuse, it is the beginning of trying to rebuild a life a new start with advanced counselling in trying to live a life with carrying the torment of abuses and torment endured.

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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 18:09

Solution.....for people to be aware of what exactly defines domestic and emotional abuse. To discuss it more openly, make people aware of what is and isn't allowed and what types of help there is out there. Just that one phone number can save a life, or be a motivation for someone to pick up the phone and ask for help.

Awareness, awareness, awarenes!
You can't help someone, but you can help them to help themselves.

I remember another beneficial organization brother daywalk3r posted, it was called 'solace'.

We are very eager to spread Islamic and religious messages, leaflets and emails...obtaining and spreading information from these organizations is just as important if not vital.

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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 18:43

Taalibah, no need for apologies for disagreeing : ) I see what you mean about the abuser. They definitely need help for doing what they do as they are, I believe, often victims of abuse themselves. I have to say though that the initial help could just as well come from a religious person who would guide him to seeking professional help.

I was talking more about the victims (women) who will not seek help. Yes I agree that these women have to make the move but I'm more concerned about those women who simply wont make that move..and this is where help and support comes in be it from family, friends or anyone they can trust and are able to talk to... where they feel there is someone who cares, who is sympathetic.

Yes the women are advised to reconcile and that should be advised where there is a chance of the men getting help. Question is how to make the men get the help they need?

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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 18:55

Most abusers do not acknowledge their mental health issues, hence do not seek help for it. This is why women in such positions are not encouraged to reconcile or even consider mediation, because it's a high risk. It is women such as these who return to abuse which worsens.

Sympathy and a listening ear is futile and is totally not what is required here, we are not discussing a marital argument here, we are discussing life scarring abuse.

Once again, in the real world you can give someone the necessary information, but you cannot make them act on it. You can give someone a key but you cannot force them to unlock the door with it.

if you know someone who is abused, teach them the boundaries educate them on what abuse is, and tell them no one should have to tolerate it morally or islamically...give them a phone number, and you have done 99% of the job.

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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 19:18

Quote:

Question is how to make the men get the help they need?

They need their Hazrats to let them go! When their Hazrat is given a reality show, only then will they realize how badly they have been played.

Hazrats are so positive thinking MashaAllah and they adhere to Sunnah too, but that doesn't mean they are going to be correct in their judgment.

Some men manipulate their Hazrats to such an extent that they would never accept that their 'Mureed' or follower, or Saathi could ever do such things.

Truth is they can, they can lie and make an honest person look like a retard. In the eyes of Hazrat, he's a goody goody.

Apologies for using the term "Hazrat" but the reality is that these people have followers around the world who give preference to their Hazrat over Hard-core evidence and in many cases Sunnah and ijma'

This issue about Hazrats is not just about moon sightings or following the 18 degrees rule or HMC and so on, it's much more than that and unfortunately sometimes they do get it wrong.

The worst place to get it wrong is domestic violence.

Fakes can easily show crocodile tears and Hazrat will sympathize with them, but when the woman wants to counter argue, the husband gets told that the Deen tells us the women are like bent ribs and we just have to learn to live with them.

Excuse me hazrat, but even bent ribs have rights!

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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 19:51

Taalibah wrote:

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will definitely think about this and keep it mind inshaAllah

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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 4th December 2014 21:25

Some of you sisters have got it all wrong, sorry to say.

Did you know that some men are the.....

of famous scholars, or as Muadh puts it, "Hazrat", and they use this as an advantage in their favour. They, as Abu M said, fill the ears with lies and the "Mashaykh" as sister Maria puts it, are blinded from the actual facts.

Then what? Where do the sisters go?

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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2014 09:23

Taalibah: I've read everything again and given it a lot of thought. You're right, the women need to be in touch with experts who can help them in a positive way. Also where mashaikh and other religious persons are concerned, I believe they can help with the spiritual aspect i.e. in case where a woman has lost hope and is in despair or is angry at Allah ta'ala for her fate, a bit like a person in depression to whom the Ulama will advise adopting tafweez, turning to Allah ta'ala in du'a and seek medical help where necessary...and as brother Muadh said, the Ulama/mashaikh will not be able to continue long term.

There was one statement which i did not agree with however and I wanted to quote it but cannot find it...something about the kind of support I mentioned being of no use?? Something to that effect any way. let me explain

Scenario:
Ok so I tell a woman in this situation to contact the sites you've recommended. Now, she does not do so (as you mentioned, she's given the key but does not use it). She also refuses to seek help from her elders, family which is very often the case. Now I would still wish to continue my support via chats, messaging etc....to say comforting, encouraging things and mentioning the fact that I am making du'a or saying things like tests are from Allah and He tests everyone in different ways and is means of great benefit. I'm saying this because the couple of women I know, actually become happy and maybe get comforted because someone cares.

I realise their lives maybe at risk, but there would be nothing I can do except be supportive...I dont think I can just leave it at that....I believe she needs that

BTW...solace, is this it and I wonder if it has Muslim advisors like Nour? www.solacewomensaid.org/

I've saved both links and maybe anyone else knowing of such organisations should mention it here so that someone can inshaAllah benefit

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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2014 09:32

Brothers Abu Mohammad and Ali: I totally disagree and so gave you the disagree signs and I wasn't going to bother replying but I was wondering....

So these violent husbands even have a shaykh and lie to the shaikh and are goody goody in his eyes and are their spoons (I hate the word chamcha as well except when using it in the kitchen).......I would say firstly, maybe 1% of these men would have a shaykh to begin with and secondly, as sister Taalibah says they would "suffer from self delusion, denial and split personality, and mental health issues" so i reckon they would be all sweet and nice and appear respectable to their families, friends, at work etc. and not just in front of their shaykh (if they have one)

I do believe you brothers are judging and generalising due to your clouded judgements which is a result of your "hazrat" hatred

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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2014 10:06

Quote:

BTW...solace, is this it and I wonder if it has Muslim advisors like Nour? www.solacewomensaid.org/

Please I can't emphasize enough that It doesn't have to be an organization that has to have Muslim advisors. These organizations are promoted because the norm cliche thinking is if they are not Muslim they do not understand, in fact the training has come from the same source.

Where deen is concerned, majority of sisters either embrace it or move away from it in times of difficulty, just as any other person would in times of difficulty.....but Alhumdulillah majority of times deen is the only source that has kept them going through domestic violence/abuse and the only issue that has stopped them from ending their lives. So religion is not the issue here.

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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2014 11:15

ummi taalib wrote:

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No problem sister, we can agree to disagree.

Have you ever heard of people saying, "I don't trust the bearded one's" You know why they say that? It's becuase they've been hard done for by Muslims! Same goes for sister's, they'll say, "I don't trust Hijaabis"

What a shame. A TINY MINORITY of idiots and everyone paint's everyone else with the same face!

Please don't get me/us wrong, we Love Hazrat(s) for the sake of Allah, it the one's who over praise them and put them on the throne!

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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2014 11:17

I wonder how brothers get so hyped by the fact, that a Shaykh can also be deceived by his disciple. When even Rasulullah [sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam] admitted, that in the case of an argument between two companions even Rasulullah [sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam] could be deceived into giving a false judgement. (I searched all night for the Hadith, I know it's in Riyadhus Salihin. But I unfortnately could not find it, please post it if you know.] So, who is a Shaykh to not being deceived? Instead of making this another issue of "Hazratism", we should ponder over real solutions to this real problem!

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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 5th December 2014 11:21

True Life wrote:

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Jazakallah for that.

At least things would still get rectified either by Wahi or some other means. In such cases, the Ulama unfortunately get duped into the lies and it's not their fault. The fault lies with the liar.

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