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#136 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 11:09
If this discussion causes more ill feelings towards "anyone" it will be locked and moved to debates section.

There are blog posts where guests and others alike can post their thoughts and continue there.


Enough has been said and acknowledged. We get the point!
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#137 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 11:14
siraji wrote:
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brother siraji jazakallah khairan for the advice. Please note that I do not claim the title of 'sufi'. I am a sinner of the ummah of the prophet Muhammad sallahualahiwaslaam. Please make dua for me as I desparetely need them. Also make dua for fake shaykh and muadh as I am sure they are needy as well.
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#138 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 11:15
Brother Muadh, I really can't figure out why is it so difficult to understand my posts, particularly so that several other brothers have now confirmed that they've understood them well and agree with them.

Just reading posts 108 and 110 should be sufficient. (I've just registered to post these links but found I still can't!). The second post was in reply to your response in between, so please read that as well.


There's no point repeating the contents of your previous posts to me, as I've stated already very clearly in Post 110:


MY PREVIOUS COMMENT FROM POST 110 WHICH I'M REPEATING AGAIN:
"I have not commented on anything that you've had to say thus far. I have not indicated agreement nor disagreement, and I don't believe in making judgements without being hundred percent certain in such a judgement.

You on the other hand stated explicitly that there are errors in the very simple statements I made on the merits and importance of Taqwa. Despite repeated requests to point out these errors you fail to do so.

So I will repeat again the post in which I requested you to point out SPECIFICALLY the errors in the three points I had made. "
END OF COMMENT REPEATED AGAIN


I requoted the three points which originally prompted you to state I'm incorrect in the very same post 110.
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#139 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 11:24

Anonymous wrote:
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My Brother in Islam,

No he DID NOT say that and he is here to clarify his stance himself. He known my phone, email, home address so he can easily clarify if there is a misunderstanding and he can also repose the question to say that he meant a “well known Faqih” and then we can answer it.

The issue is of utmost importance in my opinion that a being a “Khaleefa” or a “Big Scholar” doesn’t equate to being a Mufti and I gave two examples in both areas:

  1. Shaykh Imdadullah Muhajir Makki (RA)
  2. Imam Muslim (RA)

One is big in Tassawuff and other is a "BIG SCHOLAR" and I am sure both had many students (under them).

Once he makes a clear distinction that "Khaleefa" and "BIG SCHOLAR" doesn't equate to being Faqih we can actually discuss his point. It is of critical importance that it is established what a "Faqih" is and who is qualified to give Fatwa

After clarifying the matter, the issue returns to you.

We are Muslims are at the end of the day and liable to being questioned by Allah (SWT) on the day of judgement. You are posting under a Guest ID which I am unfamiliar with (so I don’t know you) and for me to pry into it or investigate or speculate is HARAM.

You have chosen to be anonymous and that’s fine but it shouldn’t preclude you with discussing matters which have hurt your feelings. What precisely is it that I have done which has upset you? If you want to register and PM (that’s fine), if you want to email (that’s fine). This is not the first time I am asking you that if you believe that I am wrong (please show me) so I can correct, retract and apologise.

If I have hurt your feelings (please show me) so I can correct, retract and apologise.

If I have violated commands of Islamic Shariah (please show me) so I can correct, retract and apologise.

If I have insulted Ulamah (please show me) so I can correct, retract and apologise.

Other than that continue with the conversation but on the day of judgement everybody reading this will be witness for me that I have asked you (more than once) to clarify what the issue (with you) is.

Jazakallahu Khayran

 

 

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#140 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 11:26
Arslan. wrote:
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JazakAllah khair for your input.

Yes there are many levels of taqwa. The essence of Taqwa is ABSTENTION. The different levels of taqwa that I've learnt about are as follows:

1) Abstention from Kufr and Shirk.
2) Abstention from Haraam.
3) Abstention from doubtful matters
4) Abstention from permissible matters.
5) Abstention from anything that distracts from the presence of Allah (azza wa jal) in one's heart and mind.

Thus, it'll be technically correct to label a sinner who is still a Muslim, a man of Taqwa, due to his abstention from Kufr. I believe the discussion in this thread is about levels 3 and 4. There are absolutely no limits to Taqwa. In this age of flagrant desires and impiety, when the word 'Taqwa' elicits allergic responses everywhere, and even pious Muftis are not immune from catastrophic mistakes in fatwas, we should constantly exhort one another to adopt greater taqwa.
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#141 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 11:29

Deoband wrote:
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Asslamo Allaikum,

  1. Please note the words in the response by Imam Ghazali (RA)
  2. Please note the re-usage of the entire passage (verbatim) by Shaykh (Hazrat) Mufti Taqi Usmani (RA)

After you read please point out the error in the words of Imam Ghazali (RA) agreed upon by Shaykh (Hazrat) Mufti Taqi Usmani (RA).

Jazakallahu Khayran


 Legal status of following a Madhab by Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA):

Query  (How does a lay person recognise a Mujtahid)?

The essence of Taqleed is that a person who doesn't have the capability to reach a decision based on the Qur'an and Sunnah should adhere to an expert scholar and rely upon his judgement. A question may arise from this explanation. That is, if the person following has no academic merit, how is he to determine the expertise of the scholar whom he is asking and following?"

In response to this question, we will suffice with an excerpt from Imam Ghazali:

"If it is asked, a lay person may base his choice on assumptions and hence, he may be deceived by appearances. This may lead him to give preference to a lesser Imam over one who is more suited. So if he is allowed to exercise his judgement (in choosing an Imam) and acts upon his assumptions, why can't he then act upon his assumptions in the issue under discussion? Understanding the various degrees of scholarship is very intricate and a lay person cannot be the best judge for that. This question is valid. Our answer is that if a non-physician, whose child has become sick,decides to administer medicine as he sees fit will be held responsible and will be guilty of transgression. If he consults a physician, he will not be responsible and will not be transgressing. If there are two physicians in town and they differ over the prescription, then if the father of the son decides to take the prescription of the lesser over that of the better physician, he will be held accountable. He (the father) would know of the better physician by merely listening to the opinions formed by patients, by the lesser physician's referral to the better physician and by overwhelming signs which will convince him (the father) that this physician is better than the other. The same is the case for choosing the best scholar from several. There is no need to look into the issue itself (just as it is not necessary to look into the prescription or medicine). This much, the lay person is quite capable of doing and determining. It is not proper to go against the overwhelming assumption merely because of likes and dislikes. This is the most correct opinion in our view and the most suitable for regulating people in God-consciousness (Taqwa) and accountability."

Deoband wrote:
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I disagree. Please show me references from the Madhab where a laymen is tasked to be investigating Fatwaas.

If you can then you aren't a laymen (its a simple issue).

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#142 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 11:34
Black Turban wrote:
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Your ilham was slightly off! Lol.

I am neither Siraji, nor do I have any idea who he is.
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#143 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 11:58
Deoband wrote:
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InshaAllah, you will be able to posts links once the number of posts and reps start to increase. Admin has kept this feature to protect the site from unwanted posters inshaAllah.

جزاك الله خيرا and a very warm welcome (officialy as a member) :)
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#144 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 12:16
salam

should have left this discussion after my frist post but my nafs got the better of me.

I apologise for all problems caused on my part and ask your forgiveness. I do make dua for all and seek your duas too. i'm not one to hold any grudges at all, and my writing style was intnetional, but perhaps not the best course of action
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#145 [Permalink] Posted on 4th April 2014 12:19
Answers to two objecions on my stance from Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA):

Query 1 (The Taqleed of the lay person):

In the context of Taqleed a "lay person" is defined as one who knows little regarding the Arabic language, and about Islam in general even though they may be intelligent in other fields of knowledge. Proficiency to read Arabic titles concerning the Qur'an and Sunnah but devoid of any formal Islamic studies with a qualified instructor would also place a person within the ambit of laity. In addition, students who have taken formal courses in Islamic sciences but have failed to develop acumen would also fall within this classification. The above mentioned are under an obligation to practice Taqleed. They must follow a specific Imam and Mujtahid because they simply do not have the ability to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah directly nor can they differentiate between what is apparently contradictory and give scholarly preference to one opinion over the other. Shaykh Khatib of Baghdad wrote:

"As for those who should apply Taqleed it is the lay person who does not know the methods of extracting Islamic rules. It is permissible for such a person to follow one specific Imam and act upon his Fatwas. This is so because he does not possess the tools for Ijtihad so his duty is to follow, just as a blind person must follow someone who is able to see for determining the direction of the Qiblah."

The Muqallid (follower) on this level cannot get caught up in discussions of proofs to see which Imam's view is stronger. His duty is merely to appoint one Mujtahid and follow his opinions in all matters. This is because he is not academically capable of making judgments of that kind. So much so that even if this person finds a Hadith which apparently contradicts the opinion of his appointed Imam, he should not resort to following the Hadith, but rather adhere to his Imam's opinion. He should assume that he has not understood the meaning or context of the Hadith appropriately or he should have no doubt that his Imam has a stronger proof than the Hadith in question, which he may not be aware of.

Query 2 (How does a lay person recognise a Mujtahid)?

The essence of Taqleed is that a person who doesn't have the capability to reach a decision based on the Qur'an and Sunnah should adhere to an expert scholar and rely upon his judgement. A question may arise from this explanation. That is, if the person following has no academic merit, how is he to determine the expertise of the scholar whom he is asking and following?"

In response to this question, we will suffice with an excerpt from Imam Ghazali:

"If it is asked, a lay person may base his choice on assumptions and hence, he may be deceived by appearances. This may lead him to give preference to a lesser Imam over one who is more suited. So if he is allowed to exercise his judgement (in choosing an Imam) and acts upon his assumptions, why can't he then act upon his assumptions in the issue under discussion? Understanding the various degrees of scholarship is very intricate and a lay person cannot be the best judge for that. This question is valid. Our answer is that if a non-physician, whose child has become sick,decides to administer medicine as he sees fit will be held responsible and will be guilty of transgression. If he consults a physician, he will not be responsible and will not be transgressing. If there are two physicians in town and they differ over the prescription, then if the father of the son decides to take the prescription of the lesser over that of the better physician, he will be held accountable. He (the father) would know of the better physician by merely listening to the opinions formed by patients, by the lesser physician's referral to the better physician and by overwhelming signs which will convince him (the father) that this physician is better than the other. The same is the case for choosing the best scholar from several. There is no need to look into the issue itself (just as it is not necessary to look into the prescription or medicine). This much, the lay person is quite capable of doing and determining. It is not proper to go against the overwhelming assumption merely because of likes and dislikes. This is the most correct opinion in our view and the most suitable for regulating people in God-consciousness (Taqwa) and accountability."

Answers to third objecion on my stance from Qur'aan and Imam Khateeb Baghdadi (RA):

Query 3 (Alim needs to be pious, person of Taqwa and practising):

First and foremost shameful (Anti-Sunnah), vulgar acts are forbidden upon every Muslim (let alone a Scholar) as Allah (SWT) has clearly stated it to acts of Shaytaan.

لۡ إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ رَبِّىَ ٱلۡفَوَٲحِشَ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنۡہَا وَمَا بَطَنَ وَٱلۡإِثۡمَ وَٱلۡبَغۡىَ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ وَأَن تُشۡرِكُواْ بِٱللَّهِ مَا لَمۡ يُنَزِّلۡ بِهِۦ سُلۡطَـٰنً۬ا وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعۡلَمُونَ

[7:33] Say, .My Lord has prohibited only the shameful acts, whether open or secret, and (every) sinful act, and unjust aggression, and that you associate with Allah anything for which He has not sent any authority, and that you attribute to Allah any thing about which you do not have sure knowledge.

إِنَّمَا يَأۡمُرُكُم بِٱلسُّوٓءِ وَٱلۡفَحۡشَآءِ وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعۡلَمُونَ

[2:169] He orders you only to (do) evil and immodest acts, and that you ascribe to Allah what you do not know.

Imam Abu Abdullah Al-Hanbali (RA) states that a Mufti must refrain from lies, Haram, Makrooh etc and must be a person of Adalah:

والعدل من استمر على فعل الواجب والمندوب والصدق وترك الحرام والمكروه والكذب ، مع حفظ مروءته ومجانبة الريب والتهم . . .

Imam Khateeb Baghdadi (RA) said that Fatwa of a Faasiq cannot be accepted no matter how knowledgeable he is!

وأجمع العلماء على أن الفاسق لا تقبل منه الفتوى ، ولو كان من أهل العلم . كما صرح بذلك الخطيب البغدادي

Answers to fourth objecion on my stance from Hadeeth:

Query 4 (Alim who is pious, person of Taqwa and practising makes a mistake):

So once you have selected a "Muft" then what happens if he makes a mistake? This is well known Hadeeth

عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ الْعَاصِ أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ إِذَا حَكَمَ الْحَاكِمُ فَاجْتَهَدَ ثُمَّ أَصَابَ فَلَهُ أَجْرَانِ وَإِذَا حَكَمَ فَاجْتَهَدَ ثُمَّ أَخْطَأَ فَلَهُ أَجْرٌ

Sayyidina Amr ibn Al-Aas (RA) reported: The Messenger of Allah (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) said, “If a judge makes a ruling, striving to apply his reasoning (ijtihad) and he is correct, then he will have two rewards. If a judge makes a ruling, striving to apply his reasoning and he is mistaken, then he will have one reward.” [Bukhari]

Answers to fifth objecion on my stance:

Query 5 (Alim who is be pious, person of Taqwa and practising makes a mistake):

What I am saying here is that there are 2 categories of people here:

  1. Category ONE are those are clearly aware of the error of the Fatwa and in that case they (obviously) cannot act on that Fatwa
  2. Category TWO are those are clearly not aware of the error of the Fatwa and in that case they (obviously) cannot be held accountable on the day of judgement because they are "Muqallids" UNLESS they become not only aware but also understand the issue etc.

Primary disagreements with my Brothers:

Allah (SWT) has Masha'Allah blessed with knowledge and you have realised an error in the stance of a well known "Mufti" so don't act on it. However, you can't expect an ignoramus like me to be on the same level as you!

Secondary disagreements with my Brothers:

  1. There is no condition of someone being a "Khaleefa" to be able to issue Fatwaas (on Fiqh)
  2. There is no condition of someone having loads of Mureeds to be able to issue Fatwaas (on Fiqh)
  3. There is no condition of someone having loads of students to be able to issue Fatwaas (on Fiqh)

The proof is the following speech of Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) on Shaykh (Maulana) Abdul-Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) from minutes 35 onwards where it is clearly stated that Shaykh (Maulana) Abdul-Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) approached Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) or other Muftees in his lifetime for Fatwaas. Two further and quick examples:

  • Shaykh Imdadullah Muhajir Makki (RA) NEVER gave Fatwaas in his life so that discounts being a "Khaleefa" or "Shaykh of Tassawuff"
  • Imam Muslim (RA) didn't give Fatwaas so that discounts "BIG SCHOLARS" with loads of students etc

There are Masha'Allah Ulamah who are Khulafah (Mashaykh of Tassawuff) and also Faqih (i.e. Mufti) and Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) is a fine example of that.

Always open for discussions with my Brothers and accepting my errors; requesting your duas.

 

Anonymous wrote:
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Hazrat,

You are better then me in Taqwa, knowledge, behavior and experience and I am inferior to you. Any issues please contact me anywhere, anytime to clear as disagreements are permissable but if it is affecting your heart and your emotions; its not good.

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#146 [Permalink] Posted on 5th April 2014 01:19
Brother Muadh, I have not disagreed with any of your comments thus far.

On the other hand, you have explicitly said that there are errors in three points about taqwa that I initally made.

I have repeatedly asked, again and again and again and again (yes, 4 times now!), PLEASE POINT OUT SPECIFICALLY THESE ERRORS, so that we can then discuss the incorrectness of that particular point.

You made the claim of my points being incorrect, so why are you avoiding this simple request of pointing out EXACTLY which specific point is incorrect???

I will simply reproduce the three points from the post which you branded as 'incorrect':

PREVIOUS REQUEST TO POINT OUT ERRORS FROM POST BRANDED AS INCORRECT

Brother Muadh, you've yet to specify which other examples were incorrect and now you claim that I misunderstood the issue. Could you please be more specific what was incorrect and what exactly I have misunderstood.

I merely emphasized the importance of taqwa in general which involves abstaining from doubtful matters. I fail to see what was incorrect about the three points I made:

1) There are many levels of taqwa one of the important aspects of which is abstaining from doubtful matters.

2) When a layperson is confronted with two sets of rulings - one stating permissibility and another stating prohibition - then it is best to take the path of taqwa that involves staying away from doubtful matters.

For example, Mufti Taqi permits some forms of Mortgages whilst many senior Ulama vehemently prohibit it and regard such forms of mortgages as riba-based (including Mufti Ibrahim Desai). It is better for a person who is aware of the two sets of rulings, to adopt the path of taqwa that involves abstaining from doubtful matters.

3) The Sahabahs (radhiyallahu anhum) possessed the highest levels of taqwa. In fact, they would abstain from the majority of the permissible in order to avoid the risk of falling into doubtful or Haraam matters. Whilst no-one again will be able to match their level of taqwa, we should all at least aim to have their attitude and encourage each other to do so.

So, I re-iterate again, I completely fail to see what was so incorrect about the points I made and what exactly have I misunderstood.

I would be grateful if you could point out precisely where exactly have I erred so that we could then discuss the incorrectness/correctness of that particular point inshAllah.
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#147 [Permalink] Posted on 5th April 2014 01:23
Furthermore, when I reminded you that you hadn't yet answered my request to point out these errors which you saw in my post, you accused me of:

QUOTE FROM BROTHER MUADH
"Your mistake is that you are thinking that I am advocating following a Fatwa KNOWING that it is wrong and that is not at all what I am saying."
ENDQUOTE

So I will repeat (again!!!) my previous request to you to substantiate exactly this accusation:

MY PREVIOUS REQUEST
"Brother Muadh, please substantiate EXACTLY where I thought you are advocating this - or is this just a presumption of yours?"
ENDQUOTE


@Abu Muhammed, JazakAllah Khair for the warm welcome!
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#148 [Permalink] Posted on 5th April 2014 01:49
Deoband wrote:
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The five degrees of TAQWA- Imam Ibn Juzayy R.A.


1. That the slave should protect himself from kufr (covering over the truth), and that is the station of Islam;

2. That he should protect himself from acts of disobedience and forbidden things, and it is the station of turning or repentance [tawbah];

3. That he should protect himself from doubtful matters, and that is the station of caution or carefulness [wara'];

4. That he should protect himself from even those things that are permitted (i.e, avoiding what is more than absolutely necessary of this world) and that is the station of doing without [zuhd];

5. That he should protect himself from the presence of other than Allah in his heart, and it is the presence of witnessing [mushahadah].

Source: Al-Kalbi, Ibn Juzayy. Kitabu-t Tashil li 'Ulumu-t Tanzil. Trans. Abdassamad Clarke. Unpublished.
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#149 [Permalink] Posted on 5th April 2014 09:32

Deoband wrote:
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Deoband wrote:
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Answers to sixth objecion on my stance:

Query 6 (Selecting the most cautious opinion for laymen):

 

Hazrat,

I am at your Service, Insha'Allah and although this matter has been answered previously but here it is officially.

What is being discussed in this thread is "Taqwa" in REFERENCE to and in CONTEXT with "Fatwa" and Shaykh Ibn Juzayy (RA) NEVER advocated taking a harsher (or more cautious) opinion in between two Fatwaas at all anywhere. The quote which you have produced is in terms of Tazkiyah and no in terms for laymen to choose a Fatwa.

You have taken Tassawuff (Tazkiyah) and trying to apply it to Fiqh and I have stated multple times that this is the approach being used by you and Br London786. He even claims "Khulafah" to be "BIG SCHOLARS"

To show you that your quotation has nothing to do with with "Fatwa"here is his definition from the beginning of the Chapter and he (RA) says:

"Taqwa's meaning is fear, clinging to obedience to Allah and abandoning disobedience to Him. It is the sum of all good."

To sum up the discussion your error is misunderstanding Taqwa in REFERENCE to and in CONTEXT with "Fatwa"

  1. When a person consults a pious (praiseworthy) Scholar and adopts their opinion then he/she has ACTED on "Taqwa" already
  2. When a person makes choices in daily lives then individual Taqwa choices apply

The difference is individual decisions vs acting on "Fatwa" of a pious, praiseworthy Scholar.

You have yet to give some examples from Usool (principles) of Fiqh of laymen OBLIGATED to adopt a harsher (or cautious) view. When a person consults a Mufti and he is a laymen (meaning unaware and unable to grasp the intricacies) then he simply follows the Fatwa and that is “Taqwa”

Dua: May Allah (SWT) reward Hazrat Siraji and his family the best of success in this world and the next (Ameen) for correcting me as indeed I had made a mistake in the name of the Scholar.

P.S: Fatawa Haqqaniyah (Voume 1/Page 64) has Aadaab (ettiquetts) of Mustafti (one asking Mufti) and there is no such thing as adopting harsher (or more cuatious) opinion. merely:

  1. See a pious Alim
  2. Ask
  3. Act
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#150 [Permalink] Posted on 5th April 2014 10:31
Salam

FYI he quoted ibn Juzayy al-Kalbi and not ibn Jawziyyah
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