Start of Fast (Suhoor) Angle: "Whole Islamic world" vs Hizbul-Ulamah

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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd July 2013 15:35

Justice Mufti Muhammed Taqi Saheb Fawa

Dear Molana Hanif Sahab Assalamu alaikum

Thanks very much for your email.

There are some fundamental misunderstandings that have been narrated in the referenced article. The viewpoint of the scholars of Darul Uloom Karachi since the time of my honourable father, Hazrat Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafee' Sahab رحمه الله تعالى , has been that Subh Saadiq commences when the sun reaches 18 degrees below the horizon, implying that Sehri ends at this time and it is totally impermissible to eat even a morsel after this time for one who is fasting. Similarly, it also implies that the time of Fajr Salah commences at this time, meaning that any person who performs his Fajr Salah at this time will not be required to repeat his Salah as it was performed validly in its time.

Keeping this in mind, the practice in Ramadhan in Darul Uloom Karachi is that Suhoor ends at 18 degrees whilst the Adhan of Fajr is called out at after the sun reaches 15 degrees below the horizon. This is done on the basis of احتياط so as to enable practice on both the views of 18 and 15 degrees. This is in the same context as appears in numerous occasions in the classical texts of Fiqh, wherein a jurist regards practicing on a view which takes into consideration and reconciles between differing views, as better (and not as necessary) to practice upon even though it may be permissible according to that jurist to practice on the differing opinion. I hope this has clarified the misunderstanding.

Wassalam

Muhammad Taqi Usmani

wifaqululama. co. uk

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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd July 2013 15:49

Fajr & Isha

Question F1: How about the method employed by Saudi Arabia for Isha' which, to my knowledge, is 1-1/2 hour after Maghrib all year long? Isn't that disregarding the change in sun's declination?

Answer: For latitudes close to Equator, like Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, 1-1/2 hours is a good approximation and also practical, and the variation of twilight time (due to sun's angle of depression) is small in different seasons. The Isha' time on some days begins earlier then 1.5 hours, but there is nothing wrong in starting prayers after 1.5 hours. So, this practice of 1.5 hours is a matter of convenince and of course is within Shari'ah guidelines.

Haramain (Makkah & Madinah) in Saudi Arabia use the folowing:
Fajr 18.5�
Shurooq 1 minute before sunrise
Zuhr Zawaal = Calculated Noon
Asr Hanbali (Shafi'i)
Maghrib 1 minute after sunset
Isha 90 minutes after Maghrib

Question F2: What is your opinion about 15� versus 18� for Subh-Sadiq?

Answer: The real answer is that no degrees can be fixed for all latitudes. The phenomenon of subh-Sadiq will vary in degrees at different latitudes and different seasons (day of the year), becuase of the sun travelling (apparently) along a specific latitude on a specific date. The sun (apparently) travels between tropic of cancer and tropic of Capricorn in different seasons. People in different locations around the globe have made observations about Subh-Sadiq and the results are anywhere between between 9� to 18� from high latitudes to equator respectively. Here is an e-mail sent to me by Brother Ghulam Dandia ([email protected]) of Miami.

"On Dec 3, 2000, five of us went to Miami Beach area of Sunny Isles to observe the start of Subh Sadiq. The time that moonsighting.com had provided for 15� was 100% accurate. The phenomena was observed at 5:45 am eastern standard time. The witnesses were myself (Salam Dandia), Raffia Dandia, Abdul Razz Khanani, Kaiser Perverse, and Mufti Rafique Ahem (imam of bait-ul-mukkram masjid Dhaka, Bangladesh) Jazak Allah... "

In 1987 a group of Ulema in Blackburn, England including Molana Yaqub Miftahi from UK, desired to solve this problem for the Ummah in the UK and sacrificed their valuable time by diligently striving to determine the correct times for Subh-e-Sadiq. They carried out the Mushahada (from September 1987 to August 1988) and chose to disregard the times provided by the Observatory, therefore starting from a clean sheet and not being psychologically swayed by already given Observatory times. Their Observations, therefore, unlike the observations by others did not seek to confirm or reject any of the Observatory Degree times but to provide prayer timings based purely on what was observed. Observations show that the degrees for Fajr times fluctuate throughout the year.

From UK, Maulana Y.Ismail Qasmi (in his book, Bartaniya me Subh-e-Sadiq ka Sahih Waqt: Dewsbury U.K., 1983...Suppl. 1984) mentions several observations by the Ulama in England citing that Fajr prayer should be at 12� or even to 16�.

Limited Observations made in Chicago in 1985 for Subh-Sadiq by Rajaullah Qureshi, Azmatullah Qadri, Mohammad Abdul Hai, Maulana Abdurrahman Sayeed Siddiqi, Maulana Irfan Ahmed Khan and a few others confirms 13 to 15�.

Other individual limited observations made in Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal, San Francisco, Tempe (AZ), Houston (TX), Washington DC show Subh-Sadiq at 12� to 14�.

Limited Observations for Subh-Sadiq in Tando Adam (Pakistan) show 15�.

Some observations made in New Zealand and Australia point Subh-Sadiq between 12� and 15�.

Observations made in Riyadh (Saudi Arabia) in 2004 by a group with Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Fauzan for the whole year shows Subh-Sadiq was observed at 15�.

A decade long research by Moonsighting.com found that the Subh-Sadiq or disappearance of Shafaq is a function of latitude and seasons. So, Moonsighting.com calculates Fajr and Isha using that function of latitude and day number of the year.

Question F3: Some Ramadan timetables in my area have the sehri end time based at 15� and others at 18�. Which one is the correct one?

Answer: 18� is considered appropriate by many Ulamaa, although observations for Subh-Sadiq in many parts of the world show that Suh Sadiq fluctuates in degrees. No fixed degree is the correct answer. It is suggested that if one has 15 degree chart for Fajr then one should finish eating 20 to 30 minutes before that chart time for Fajr. Get the most accurate Prayer Times from Moonsighting.com.

Question F4: I was very surprised to see a wide difference in timing for Fajr & Isha calculated by assumptions of various organizations. Can you explain?

Answer: Fajr & Isha are calculated by different organizations using different criteria, all over the world. Some use 17�, 19�, 20�, or even 21�. Others use 90 minutes, 75 minutes or 60 minutes criteria. These criteria fail to calculate Fajr & Isha at high latitudes. Muslims have resorted to some easy solution of choosing specific degrees, but that is not right. Remember, in the times of Prophet (SAV), there were no watches. Much more variations were in practice, even to the extent that Sahaabah (RA) prayed Fajr in Ghalas (darkness of night mixed with light) or Isfaar (when the light has spread conspicuously). This variation was more than half an hour. Qur'an mentions Fajr time as when you can differentiate a black thread from a white thread. Some Sahabi (RA) was observed to physically take two threads and trying to see them; the Prophet (SAV) clarified to him (RA) that this is not the intent of Shari'ah. It is when the very faint light of morning begins to spread horizontally in the darkness of night. Moonsighting.com has been doing research for the calculation methods and after a continuous effort of more than a decade, we are in a position to calculate Fajr and Isha based on actual observations at different latitudes in different seasons. This method meets the intent of the Shari'ah, and we should not be alarmed with differences of even 15 minutes.

Question F5: Our local masjid in Chicago publishes Isha timetable at 12�. To date I have not seen a fatwa which establishes 12� as acceptable (most of my reading supported 15 or 18�). In your scientific judgement is 12� for Isha acceptable?

Answer: No. Any fixed degree is not the answer. Moonsighting.com calculates Fajr and Isha as a function of latitude and seasons.

Question F6: Is it true that disappearance of Shafaq for Isha, and Subh-Sadiq for fajr cannot be related with any degrees (neither with 18� nor with 15�)?

Answer: Yes, observations made by many ulamaa' and other groups confirm that these phenomena occur at different degrees for different latitudes. Sometimes disappearance of Shafaq for Isha, and Subh-Sadiq for Fajr do not even occur at higher latitudes. This is becuase at higher latitudes the sun does not go much below horizon on some days and its light remains on the horizon for a long time and the phenomenon in Ahadith cannot be observed. So, 15� or 18� is not a solution for all latitudes.

Moonsighting.com have been studying this problem for over 25 years, and with the benefit of Shari'ah knowledge as well as the capability of computer programming to calculate prayer times, a practical solution was found, that other computer programmers have not used because they either did not have Shari'ah knowledge or did not spend enough time to look into this problem.

At latitudes beyond 66.5�, only some days in summer will not have any night and for them a practical solution can be provided with specific calculations done manually, but that occurs only a few days in summer for all land masses where people live. Moonsighting.com has been providing the prayer times specially to extreme Northern latitides up to 72� (Barrow, Alaska and Tromso, Norway) and the people over there found them most accurate and more convincing than any solution proposed by others who do not have clear understanding of what is happening at such latitudes. One Aalim (Shaikhul-Hadith from India, Hafiz Maulana Mohammad Naeem from Daoband) has gone to Northern area of Alaska after talking to Khalid Shaukat of Moonsighting.com, observed what happens there in summer time, and compared those phenomena with what was calculated and his conclusion was that prayer schedule by Moonsighting.com is a better solution, than adopting Makkah time there or any other solution Ulamaa' had proposed earlier.

Question F7: Islamicfinder.org gives an option for ISNA prayer Schedule. If that is ISNA's official position, then why moonsighting.com gives a different prayer shcedule compared to Islamicfinder.org's ISNA option?

Answer: Islamicfinder.org has used ISNA's name without verifying from ISNA. ISNA never had any official position. Islamicfinder.org is wrong and at fault to use ISNA's name and that ISNA uses 15�. Use of 15� or 18� is not correct. Read more about How We Calculate on moonsighting.com/how-we.html Moonsighting.com offers what we believe is the more towards reality and that does not use any fixed degrees nor any fixed interval from Maghrib. It uses a complex formula based on latitudes and seasons.

Question F8: Are prayer times given by Islamicfinder.org correct and reliable?

Answer: Islamicfinder.org has serious errors. Sometimes, sunrise and sunset time jump by several hours in one day. Click to see one example from IslamicFinder.org where the times jump by 3 to 4 hours in one day. Look on January 8 & 9 Sunrise time. On Jan 8, it is 7:28. On Jan 9, it is 11:14. Look on July 20 & 21 Sunset time. On July 20, it is 8:31. On July 21, it is 12:22. You can get to the same page, if you go to Islamicfinder.org, click on Norway, Click on "N" in search of a city, "Narvik". Click on "Na" in search of the same city, "Narvik". Scroll down and click on "To see more Click Next". Scroll down and click on "Narvik". Scroll down and look in the right column for Gregorian Annual Schedule. Click on "Annual Schedule".

Question F9: How long does it take to diasappear Shafaq Ahmer (red), and how long for Shafaq Abyadh (white)?

Answer: There is no one fixed answer. Firstly, red Shafaq is greatly affected by humidity in the atmosphere. At different latitudes, shafaq (both red and white) disappear in different time interval from Maghrib every day. Secondly, in different seasons, shafaq (both red and white) disappear in different time interval from the same location. You can verify that if you do the "Mushahidah" (observation) in different seasons.

Question F10: What is the relationship of disappearance of Shafaq Ahmer (red), and disappearance of Shafaq Abyadh (white) with degrees?

Answer: There is no fixed relashionship in terms of degrees. Observations from different parts of the world prove that. Moonsighting.com has collected observations done by scholars and other volunteers in many places in the world [Riyadh (S. Arabia), Tando Adam (Pakistan), Cape Town (S. Africa), New Zealand, Buffalo (New York), Toronto (Canada), Sydney, Australia, Phoenix, Arizona, and Trinidad] for few days in a year. More observations were done in Blackburn, Lancashire, England (from September 1987 to August 1988) by a group of Ulamaa'. Although these observations were not for 365 days of the year, but covered almost entire year with a few months missing.

All collected observations show that for areas at or near equator Shafaq disappearance and Subh-Sadiq occurs at 18� every day of the year, and it translates into 75 minutes in all seasons. As you move to other latitudes, subh-Sadiq and disappearance of Shafaq occurs at different degrees in different seasons. Subh-Sadiq at higher latitudes (like Blackburn) is observed at 94 to 122 minutes (14.6� to 10.6 degrees) in different seasons. Red Shafaq disappears at 66 to 105 minutes (12� to 9.7�) at higher latitudes in different seasons. A decade long research by Moonsighting.com found that the Subh-Sadiq and Shafaq are functions of latitude and seasons. Moonsighting.com uses these functions of latitude and seasons for calculating Fajr and Isha times.

www.moonsighting.com/faq_pt.html#F2

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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd July 2013 17:13

In the opening minutes of the talk Shaykh Abdur Raheem mentions that he follows a suhur end time of around 2.45am

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IzOF7xgpFU

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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd July 2013 19:11

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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but i'm sure�finishing eating 20 to 30 minutes before the 15 degree chart time for Fajr is not always stopping eating at 18 degrees (work out the timetable from your place and check)

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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd July 2013 19:18

The timetables vary, some are correct and some are incorrect.

My local masjids ALL have times of approximately 3am yet many of us follow the 18� rule and stop eating at approximately 1.30am

Huge difference, its no way 15� either because it doesn't take an hour and a half for the sun to rise 3�. Scholars have put it at approx 20 minutes.

I would really like for someone of a reputable position to ask Mufti Abdur Raheem (ha) why he follows such a timetable when he has access to all the evidence he needs.

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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd July 2013 20:02

I just checked the East London Mosque timetable for today and the time for beginning of Fajr is at 3.21am and for me, its 1.49am and my local mosque is set at 3.20am (today only)

Now I just checked on an awesome app (skyview free only available on the iPhone)

The app shows the time when the sun is at approximately -18�, the time is 1.49am and for 3.20am the sun is at -13�.

InshaAllah, when time permits, I will try to upload these images from the app. (it ain't easy doing it from the iPhone) I will have to take the photos from my android and then upload them.

If someone has the skyview free app on Apple, please try it out. Its an excellent app. Nothing is as good, even on android.

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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd July 2013 20:34

Some of the Mosques in London are following what is called a "unified timetable". This is a figment of imagination of Dr Shaukat Khalid of moonsighting.com.

Two simple questions were put to London Ulamah who propose this timetable:

Why do you follow it when Dr Shaukat Khalid himself says to STOP eating at 18 degrees? Verified again yesterday
Explain this timetable because Dr Shaukat Khalid himself says that its a special function which he has developed which has no relevance to degrees or light or observation (based on London)

There is NOT A SINGLE ALIM from London who can explain this!

Shaykh (Mufti) Abdur-Rahman Limbada (HA) answers a Fatwa on his web-site about Fajar times

He has ALSO been asked in person and in email and on his site "WHAT IS THIS "NORMAL" TIMETABLE which you follow"?

Anyone whose Masjid is following such a timetable is welcome to ask their Ulamah to explain it. Don't publicise it on forums but ask your Maulana, Mufti, Shaykh to explain as to how they derive their Fajar times and do it in privacy.

In over a decade of working with countless Ulamah & Masajid I can assure that most Deobandees Masjids don’t have any idea as to how their timetable is generated and the reasons behind it.

BUT...

Don't believe me, go and consult your own Shaykh, Mufti or Imam and ask them to explain to you how they get Salah times for your local Masjid.

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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 23rd July 2013 21:56

abu mohammed wrote:

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subhanallah. that apps pretty sharp. gutted i cant get an andriod or iphone.

13 degrees?!? ...thats incredible!

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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 24th July 2013 06:53

conversation I had with my family earlier:

I see a salah timetable in the car from a salafi mosque. Fajr is wrong and according to 15 degrees.

Myself: Where did we get this timetable from?
Father: I got it from the Arab mosque.
Myself: Their Fajr time is wrong.
Father: Yeah, actually, I had a long time with the Imam there....
Myself: He doesn't know what he's talking about! This time is wrong...proceed to explain to my family about how salah times for Fajr are calculated and why the timetables with earlier times, according to 18 degrees, are correct....All of the Ulama agree on the earlier time. There was only one Mufti in Pakistan and some Arab Ulama who went by 15 degrees. Ulama living here took those easy fatwas and now won't admit their mistakes.
Father: The Arab Imam said that both times are okay but in his opinion, the earlier time (18 degrees) is too early so he advises people who pray salah with jamat at such masajid to go home and repeat their salah.
Myself: He's wrong. Most of these (Indian) Ulama know nothing about salah times and checking the sky. And they won't admit their mistake when they do find out. Last time a chacha in the mosque yelled at me because our masjid's timetable has the correct time now. "What happened to my salah for the last thirty years?!" He thought I was the Imam.

Discussed some other stuff, but that was the gist of it. Some people may think what I did was wrong. But according to me, exposing the Ulama's faults is a smaller sin that letting my family ruin their sawm.
These are the type of convos happening a lot amongst most our masjid war jamaat too. Alhamdulillah, most of our saathis are very strict on this issue. I know it's not totally correct but quite often an Alim's piety is judged by saathis by what time he prays his Isha.

For an Alim to be firm with Isha not being at 12 degrees it generally alludes to a few qualities:
1) He'd rather follow his Asaatiza than some purana saathis, chachas and a few influential Ulama.
2) He's prepared to stand by his decision even though he knows he'll suffer for it.
3) He cannot be dissuaded from Haq by jaahils, a show of big numbers or by his masjid committee.

All the Ulama need to do is just change the timetables quietly. People will grumble and talk smack for a little while....and they'll follow. Already many masajid have done so and everything is fine.

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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 24th July 2013 08:22

Returned from north of UK few days ago, where majority follow 15degrees, found majority in midlands, and London all in line with 18degrees. Was easy to continue following 18degrees timetable whilst there, but was difficult watching family members adhering to the 15degrees timetable.
It's was the same there, they state both times are correct, but being ramadhan wouldn't anyone want to opt for the 18degrees timetable to safeguard their fasting?

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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 24th July 2013 09:33

Guys, guys, guys,

They are not following 15 Degrees.

Worse, its 13 Degrees.

See below for the evidence, inshaAllah to be uploaded very soon.

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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 24th July 2013 09:37

This photo is taken from another camera, it wasn't easy trying to hold the iPhone in the correct position with one hand and then using the other hand to take a clear picture in the dark.

The curve represents the path the sun follows. The time is at the top and the angle is at the bottom right hand corner. The RED line is the horizon

In this image, the time is 1.47am and at -18degrees. and yesterdays time was 1.48am for my timetable.

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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 24th July 2013 09:54

The curve represents the path the sun follows. The time is at the top and the angle is at the bottom right hand corner. The RED line is the horizon

In this image, the time is 3.18am and at -13degrees. and yesterdays time was 3.20am for my other timetable.

I tried to get the exact time, but the images came out blury, so I kept this as it was the closest to the time.

Allah knows best of the accuracy of such apps, but it can be used a great guideline. Great for moonsighting too.

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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 24th July 2013 10:06

This video is for the App above, Fantastic App. InshaAllah you will get an idea as to what it does and how it does it.

Youtube Video

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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 24th July 2013 10:10

abu mohammed wrote:

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Where is the location setting for this?

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Start of Fast (Suhoor) Angle: "Whole Islamic world" vs Hizbul-Ulamah

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