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Moon issues & Eid (1432): EXPLAINED

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 5th September 2011 11:54

Asslamo Allaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

Miracle of Allah (SWT):

The Sun and the Moon are creations of Allah (SWT) which are controlled by Allah (SWT) and subject to follow the commandments of Allah (SWT) and they have no randomness in their movement or orbit.

Allah (SWT) clearly says in the Qur’aan:

[55:5]  The sun and the moon are (bound) by a (fixed) calculation.

In other words the sun and the moon simply cannot randomly appear or disappear on their own. Each month new moon is born and then it becomes bigger and bigger until it becomes full and then it gets smaller and smaller until it disappears. Mankind has observed this phenomenon and sign of Allah (SWT) for centuries and will continue to do until Allah (SWT) wills for it to happen.

How does moon appear to us (on Earth) in its phases?

Moon has no light of its own so it simply reflects sunlight back to the people on Earth and when we see the moon (crescent, half moon, full moon) what we are seeing is the part of the moon which is illuminated (lit up) by sunlight. The diagram below illustrates the point. New Moon is not lit up AT ALL therefore it cannot be seen as it gets older and older you see bigger parts of the moon lit up (i.e. illuminated by sunlight).


 

Youngest Moon ever?

When new moon is born anywhere on earth, it takes a good 20+ hours for a thin crescent to be visible. The world record for the earliest sighting of new crescent is as follows:

  1. Morning crescent on Sep 14, 1871, Age -15.4h at Athens Greece, seen by Schmidt (Naked eye)
  2. Evening crescent on May 5, 1989, Age 13.47h East Lansing, MI, seen by Victor (Binocular only)

Both of these records are questionable and the first one is so old that it cannot be verified. But lets (for the sake of argument) assume that they are accurate. This means that a moon younger then 13.47 hours has NEVER BEEN sighted in the history of mankind even with a binocular.

World Time zones:

It is common knowledge that the world has different time zones and it is something that all humans are aware of it particularly Asians who travel for Hajj/Umrah/India/Pakistan from USA or UK, all of these destinations are “EAST” of USA or UK which means that when its 11:00 (AM) in UK it is:

  • 12:00 in Paris
  • 12:00 in Cairo
  • 13:00 in Amman (Jordan)
  • 14:00 in Makkah
  • 16:00 in Karachi
  • 16:30 in Mumbai

This means that if you are on a plane and flying from UK (eastwards) and somehow able to observe the sunset it will be happening in the reverse order as follows:

  • First, Mumbai
  • Then, Karachi
  • Then, Makkah
  • Then, Amman
  • Then, Cairo
  • Then, Paris
  • Then, London
  • Then, USA

Simple common sense tells you that when sunset is occurring later it means that sunlight is there (in that area) for later. Recall, that observing the crescent is dependent on sunlight so the “older the new moon” is the bigger and brighter it will appear. In other words IF the new moon is observed in Mumbai (as you travel westwards) it will be BIGGER AND BIGGER:

  • First observed in Mumbai
  • Slightly bigger in, Karachi
  • Even bigger in, Makkah
  • Even bigger in, Amman
  • Even bigger in, Cairo
  • Even bigger in, Paris
  • Even bigger in, London
  • Even bigger in, USA

Moon sighting: Ultimate Test

The Deen of Allah (SWT) is sound and confirms human observation and experience. There is nothing in the Deen of Allah (SWT) which is random and based on hocus-pocus. Shaykhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (RA) has also written that if the moon is sighted in the east then IT MUST BE sighted in the West (because it will be much bigger).Modern scientists say that this is the ultimate test of moon sighting and whenever moon is sighted every location (due West) has a better chance of sighting because it will be BIGGER & BRIGHTER!

In the world map below I have done a few things:

  • Circled the location of Saudia
  • Put an arrow to the left (indicating West) that as you travel left sunset occurs later and later
  • Circled America because the sunset is good 8+ hours later, so the new “thin” crescent sighted in Saudia at sunset will have become BIG by the time sunset occurs in USA

This test fails in Saudia consistently i.e. when Saudees see the moon the countries West of (Saudia) NEVER sight the moon to confirm the Saudi sighting WHILE in India/Pakistan this is ALWAYS confirmed i.e. like a domino effect the moon is sighted westward one after another.
 



Shaykhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (RA) said in Majmu‟ Al Fatawa Volume 13, Page 62:

قال ابن التيمية : اْحدها : ان الرؤية تختلف باختلاف التشريق والتغريب, فانه متى رؤي في المشرق وجب ان يري في المغرب ولا ينعكس , لانه يتاْخر غروب الشمس بالمغرب عن وقت غروبها بالمشرق, فاذا كان قد رؤي ازداد بالمغرب نوراً وبعداً عن الشمس وشعاعها وقت غروبها, فيكون اْحق بالرؤية, وليس كذالك اذا رؤي بالمغرب, لاْنه قد يكون سبب الرؤية تاْخر غروب الشمس عندهم, فازداد بعداً وضوءً, ولما غربت بالمشرق كان قريباً منها

ثم انه لما رؤي بالمغرب كان قد غرب عن اْهل المشرق, فهذا اْمر محسوس في غروب الشمس والهلال وساىْر الكواكب, ولذالك اذا دخل وقت المغرب بالمغرب دخل بالمشرق ولاينعكس,وكذالك الطلوع اذا طلعت بالمغرب طلعت بالمشرق ولاينعكس, فطلوع الكوكب وغروبها بالمشرق سابق


 

Ibn Taymiyyah states: “the sighting of the crescent moon depends on how easterly or westerly the location is, therefore if the crescent moon is sighted in the east, it necessitates sighting in the west, however this will not be true vice-versa. This is because the time of sunset occurs later in the west than the time of sunset in the east. If the crescent moon has been seen in a particular geographical location (in the east), then one will observe an increase in its brightness and distance from the sun and its illumination at the time of sunset (to the west), and it will thus be more easily sightable. This situation does not apply if the crescent moon is sighted in the westerly location. This is because the factor behind the cause of its visibility (i.e. in westerly location) might be the delayed sunset there, thus the distance and illumination of the crescent moon will have increased, while in the easterly location it was nearer to the sun.”

 “Then what has been seen in the West had already set for the people in the East, thus this is a significantly evident matter in the sunset and moon set and setting of all stars, so for this reason if the time for Magrib prayer enters in the West, it has also entered in the East and not the other way around. Likewise, similar is the case in sunrise in that if the sunrises in the west then it means it has risen in the east and not the other way around, thus the rising and setting of the stars proceeds from the east.”

Allamah Shaami Al-Hanafi (RA) confirmed and said in  Majmu'at Rasaail Ibn Abideen on pg 249/250.:

وفي فتاوى المحقق ابن حجر صرح السبكى والاسنوى بان المطالع اذا اختلفت فقد يلزم من رؤية الهلال في بلد رؤيته في الاخر من غير عكس اذ الليل يدخل في البلاد الشرقية قبل دخوله في الغربية وح فيلزم عند اختلافها من رؤيته في الشرقي رؤيته في الغربي من غير عكس. واما عند اتحادها فيلزم من رؤيته في احدهما رؤيته في الاخر. ومن ثم اْفتى جمع  باْنه لو مات اخوان في يوم واحد وقت زواله واحدهما في المشرق والاخر في المغرب ورث المغربي المشرقي لتقدم موته واذا ثبت هذا في الاوقات لزم مثله في الاْهلة وايضا فاالهلال قد يكون في المشرق قريب الشمس فيستره شعاعها فاذا تاْخر غروبها في المغرب بعد عنها فيرى انتهى

لكن: اعترض قوله ان الليل يدخل في البلاد الشرقية قبل دخوله في الغربية بانه ليس علي اطلاقه لان محل القبلية اذا اتحد عرض البلدين جهة و قدرا اي جهة الجنوب و الشمال وقدراً بان يكون قدر البعدين عن خط الاستواء سواء انتهى

“In Fataawa al-Muhaqqiq Ibn Hajar, Subky and Al-isnoy clarify that if iktilaaf-al-matale’ is considered then the moon sighting from any city (in the east) will make it necessary to sight it in another city (in the west) and not vice versa, because the night falls in the countries on the east before night falls in the west, hence it is incumbent that eastern sightings are necessary in the westerly location and not vice versa. As for ittihad-al-matale’, it is incumbent that any sightings from one of the two locations (east or west) are made necessary for the others. From this discussion, a group have given fatwa in the case when two brothers died on the same day at noon time; one being in the east and the other in the west, that westerner will inherit from the easterner due to his relatively earlier death. If this (east being before west) is established in the times, it will similarly be established in the crescent moons. In addition, the crescent moon in the east is closer to the sun so the glare of the sun hides it, however, when sun sets later in the west, the distance of crescent increases from sun and therefore it is visible.”

“But objection has been made on their statement (Subki and al-isnoy): ‘night enters in the countries in the East before entering the countries in the West’ in that this statement is not unqualified because in location of countries coming first the latitude of both countries in terms of direction and distance from equator has to be in agreement i.e. southerly and northerly direction and distance in that distance of both countries from equator is same.”   

Saudi Moon sighting & Hanafi Madhab:

Again, let me repeat that the Deen of Allah (SWT) is sound and confirms human observation and experience. There is nothing in the Deen of Allah (SWT) which is random and based on hocus-pocus. The Hanafi Madhab clearly states when the horizons are clear then the testimony of 1-2 people CANNOT be accepted because if the sky is clear then a large number of people MUST BE ABLE to observe the moon.
 

This test fails in Saudia consistently i.e. there is NEVER any mass sighting!

Saudi Moon sighting & Testimony of Saudi Ulamah for Eid 1432:

This year i.e. for declaring the Eid on Tuesday 30AUG2011, Shaykh (Maulana) Suleiman Ghani (HA) & Br Qamar (of ICOP-UK) stated:

I have personally called the head of the Saudi Hilal Committee just now, who has collected all the other committee reports (9 in total this month) and advised me that none of the astronomers within the committees could sight the hilal with their telescopes.

However, a few people near Riyadh who have reported following the hilal with their naked eye before sunset until the sunset and the court had accepted their claim. There Bedouins are well known to the Saudi court as "early sighters".

Saudi Record breaking on Moon sighting:

Recall the section on youngest crescent sighting and you will see that the “world record” of youngest crescent is 13.47 (with binoculars) and experts even cast doubt on that one! Saudees are consistently observing the crescent 6 hours old, 7 hours old or even younger or sometimes before it’s even born!

Saudi Moon sighting for UK by Saudi Ulamah:

No Saudi Scholar obligates UK to follow Saudi sighting in fact they say the EXACT OPPOSITE i.e. to follow your own sighting, read below:

http://central-mosque.com/index.php/Ramadhan/do-saudi-scholars-impose-saudi-moon-sighting-on-non-saudi-residents.html

So why do we perform Hajj based on Saudi sighting?

When a Muslim is in Saudia you are bound to follow the Hukum of Muslim Qadhi (Muslim judge) so there is no doubt about the validity of Hajj. The jurisdiction of Saudi Qadhees NEITHER extends beyond Saudi borders nor do they advise others Muslims (of UK etc) to follow them in moon sighting.

Saudi Moon sighting & Deobandees:

It’s common knowledge that India/Pakistan are closer (geographically) to Saudia and YET never in the history or even NOW Saudi sighting is followed in India/Pakistan. There isn’t a single Deobandi community in the world which follows Saudi sighting except UK.

Here is a chronological list of Deobandi Ulamah and their Fatawaa on the matter:

http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/fatwaspdf/Following_Saudi_For_UK.pdf

Moon sighting curves for Shawwal 1432:

  • On Monday the 29th of August 2011 there is NO WAY this moon could have been seen in Saudia
  • Testimony of Ulamah is given that the moon was not sighted by 9 commitees with telescopes
  • Moon was not sighted ANYWHERE due West as explained above so that negates the Saudi sighting

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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2011 07:47

Asslamo Allaikum,

Above explaination updated with exact references from Hanbali & Hanafi Madhab taken from Mufti Sajid Patel and post edited.

Jazakullah Khairun

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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2011 15:06
so was eid on tuesdays wrong or right

that is the question
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2011 15:29
Jazakallah, very well explained.

A little confusion. According to The Majlis SA. If the witness is aadil, then any scientific calculations are rejected. Taking into consideration that no one has witnessed the crescent so early, would this mas'ala be overlooked?
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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2011 15:45

"Anonymous" wrote:
so was eid on tuesdays wrong or right that is the question[/quote]

Asslamo Allaikum,

Eid on Tuesday was wrong, please make Qadha of one fast (of Ramadhan).

Jazakullah Khairun

[quote="abu mohammed"]Jazakallah, very well explained. A little confusion. According to The Majlis SA. If the witness is aadil, then any scientific calculations are rejected. Taking into consideration that no one has witnessed the crescent so early, would this mas'ala be overlooked?

W-Salam,

Majlis have flat out reject Saudi sighting and called it unIslamic so the question doesn't arise...


http://www.wifaqululama.co.uk/fatwaspdf/The_Majlis_moonsighting_06-06-11.pdf

  • Senior Muftees of UK have rejected Saudi sighting
  • Senior Muftees of South Africa have rejected Saudi sighting
  • Senior Muftees of Pakistan have rejected Saudi sighting
  • Senior Muftees of India have rejected Saudi sighting
  • Senior Muftees of Saudia have rejected Saudi sighting (for UK)

Any Ulamah who are against this will count as "Shadh (rare) opinion" and we respect them but their opinion CANNOT be held against the over-whelming opinion of world Ulamaa.

Any laymen who want to miss fasts of Ramadhan based on "Shadh (rare) opinion" take it upon their head on the day of judgement. You cannot follow your Shaykh or Imam if so many Ulamah are clearly saying that its wrong!

Jazakullah Khairun

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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2011 16:22
Would it be possible to get names of these senior ulama?

Although you have taken the safer stance, and used "rare opinion" as a reason.

What can really be done to educate the minority muftees.
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2011 16:38

"abu mohammed" wrote:
Would it be possible to get names of these senior ulama? Although you have taken the safer stance, and used "rare opinion" as a reason. What can really be done to educate the minority muftees.

Asslamo Allaikum,

Its in the booklet quoted in the original post, since then Majlis fatwaa and some newer ones have been issued.

We can't educate the Ulamah & Muftees, its upto other Ulamah and it then flows down hill i.e. the laymen say "We are following Ulamah"

We are supposed to do taqleed of the Hanafi Madhab and a Scholar in London asked Shaykh XXX (HA), "What you permit me to say that these Pro-Saudi Ulamah are falling outside the scope of Taqleed-Shaksi"?

And Mufti Saheb (HA) replied, "Yes".

Think about it...

  1. When you ask laymen Salafees they say "We are following Ulamah"
  2. When you ask laymen Barelwees they say "We are following Ulamah"
  3. When you ask laymen Pro-Saudi deobandees they say "We are following Ulamah"

Whats the difference? If 3 is right then 1 & 2 is also right!!!

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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2011 17:03
the ulama in the mosque know what they are doing
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 6th September 2011 17:15

"Anonymous" wrote:
the ulama in the mosque know what they are doing

Asslamo Allaikum,

No idea but we should have the ultimate respect, honour and good opinion for Ulama-e-Kiraam. Not following an opinion is "OK" but having bad thoughts of Ulama-e-Kiraam is bad!

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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 10th September 2011 22:43
On Friday, 9 September there was a live and very interesting discussion on an Arab TV Channel, "Daleel" regarding the error of the of Shawwal crescent sighting of Saudi Arabia on outskirts of Riyaad in Azdayr, there were four participants which included 2 Shariah scholars, Dr. Fahd al Juhany and Shaykh alUbaykaan (supports the astronomers). The two astronomers included Abdul Aziz Al Shummary and Dr Khalid Azzuhaq. Dr Abdul Aziz Al Shummary, the Saudi Astronomer has reiterated the impossible sighting of Khadairi and has articulated very well the position of the astronomers based on sound knowledge)
During the discussion the presenter, Abdul Aziz Qasim quoted the research made by Dr Adnan Abdul Munim alQadi that out of 46 Ramadaan declarations in Saudi only 6 coincided with astronomical data.

He also made it clear that 25 astronomers including Saudi astonomers signed a declaration about the impossibilty of the Sighting of Shawwal in Saudi.See www.icoproject.org for the official statement of the Shawwal sighting.
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 12th September 2011 08:55
salam i have spoken to my local mufti who is a grad from Bury who advised that under sharia astronomers should not be used in reagrds to moon sighting.. he advised me if this case about moon sighting issue was raised 100 years then the idea of astronomers would never have been used.. we should never listen to astronomers or use them as evidence regardless if the fact is there..
example:
two people commit zina in a bedroom. there are clear eveidence of zina commited, DNA and the rest BUT no witness... this case will be rejected

however under islamice rule there has to be 2 to 4 clear witness and thos witness has to be trustworthy...

same thing applies to moon sighting. we can nt change our way as time chnages. the law of Allah fits into all age, time and chnages...
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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 12th September 2011 11:03

"Anonymous" wrote:
salam i have spoken to my local mufti who is a grad from Bury who advised that under sharia astronomers should not be used in reagrds to moon sighting.. he advised me if this case about moon sighting issue was raised 100 years then the idea of astronomers would never have been used.. we should never listen to astronomers or use them as evidence regardless if the fact is there.. example: two people commit zina in a bedroom. there are clear eveidence of zina commited, DNA and the rest BUT no witness... this case will be rejected however under islamice rule there has to be 2 to 4 clear witness and thos witness has to be trustworthy... same thing applies to moon sighting. we can nt change our way as time chnages. the law of Allah fits into all age, time and chnages...

Asslamo Allaikum,

  • Hundred years ago people used the sun and the stars to find Qiblah direction, TODAY Mufti Saheb presses a button on his watch or mobile phone and it gives him Qiblah
  • Hundred years ago people used the sun to tell Salah times, TODAY Mufti Saheb can tell Salah times on his phone!
  • Hundred years ago the science of Astronomy wasn't established, TODAY Mufti Saheb checks BBC to see a Solar Eclipse and then prays Salahtul-Khusoof according to it without even thinking about it!
    • There ISN'T A SINGLE MUFTI or Darul-uloom in UK which DOES NOT rely on computer generated Salah times or Eclipse times (from observatory) to perform Solar eclipse Salah. If there is a Masjid in UK which prays Eclipse Salah (outdoors) and actually observe the sun (while its eclipsed) inform me!
  • Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) CHIEF-JUSTICE SHARIAH APPLET (SUPREME COURT, PAKISTAN) SAYS:

    • DNA/Finger prints etc can be used to establish "Ta'zeer" and not "Hadd"
  • Deobandi Ulamah accept accept using "science" to assist in moon sighting and here is the article from Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA), personal site:

    • Very clearly denounces Saudi sighting
    • Very clearly states that Saudi sighting outside of Saudia is not applicable
    • Very clearly states that MOON CANNOT BE SEEN within 18 hours of its birth
  • Also ask Mufti Saheb to see Ahsanul-Fatawa of Shaykh (Mufti) Rasheed Ahmed Ludhyanwi (RA) where this is discussed in detail
  • Saudi Ulamah say:

    • Saudi sigting is NOT applicable outside of Saudia
    • Science can be used to "assist" in moonsigting, listen to Shaykh Shuraim (HA [Imam of Makkah's] talk

In other words, we respect the Mufti Saheb (HA) whom you are referring to but his opinion is OUT-RANKED by much greater Ulamah then him!

Establishing hadd (of Zina) has NOTHING to do with moonsighting! Its an absurd comparison. Hanafi Madhab is dead clear on both issues. and here are the key differences:

  • The witnesses for Zina are clearly mentioned in Qur'aan while there is nothing on moon sighting witnesses
  • The practise of witnesses for Zina has been consistent and SAME for hunderds of years while for moonsighting (in the Hanafi Madhab) there is a difference:

    • A large body of witnesses are required if the sky is clear
    • 1-2 witnesses if the sky is cloudy
    • There is ABSOLUTELY NO leeway for zina,

Please take the time to read the article by Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) which I have quoted earlier.

If you wish this matter in public or private I will be happy to discuss. If you don't then take the time to read the book by Shaykh (Maulana) Iqbal Rangooni (HA) who is the older brother of Maulana Bilal (Vice-Principle) of Darul-ulom Bury. Both ULAMAH who are very Senior Ulamah of UK differ with the respected Mufti which you are quoting!

So again let me repeat we respect the Shaykh (Mufti) Saheb whom you are quoting BUT we choose to go with the opinion of his teachers and elders.

Jazakullah Khairun

P.S: Please DO NOT twist this conversation to mean that Shaykh (Mufti) Saheb is being disrespected!!!

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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 12th September 2011 11:48
This site has become the moon sighting site! when sisters were posting we was getting Knowledge on islam,now we r getting moon sighting and finger pointing and debating by brothers.this site has become typical site like the rest.e.g sunniforum! its lost its speciality(sorry to say but true) no wonder everyone has done a runner on it,such a loss,call the sisters back! and this request is from a brother.
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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 12th September 2011 12:27

"Anonymous" wrote:
This site has become the moon sighting site! when sisters were posting we was getting Knowledge on islam,now we r getting moon sighting and finger pointing and debating by brothers.this site has become typical site like the rest.e.g sunniforum! its lost its speciality(sorry to say but true) no wonder everyone has done a runner on it,such a loss,call the sisters back! and this request is from a brother.

And Moon sighting is not knowledge on Islam!

Allah mentions the Moon at least 30 times in the Quran.  

I wouldn't call it finger pointing or debating, its called Clarification with Evidence.

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 12th September 2011 12:31

"Anonymous" wrote:
This site has become the moon sighting site! when sisters were posting we was getting Knowledge on islam,now we r getting moon sighting and finger pointing and debating by brothers.this site has become typical site like the rest.e.g sunniforum! its lost its speciality(sorry to say but true) no wonder everyone has done a runner on it,such a loss,call the sisters back! and this request is from a brother.

Asslamo Allaikum,

Its an issue with is dividing communities and causing issues. All opinions from you and our Sisters are welcome on how to resolve it.

Jazakullah Khairun

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