Mufti Saeed Palunpuri MoonSighting Talk

#1 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2007 14:25

Slmz - Senior Muhaddith of Darul Loom Deoband Hzt Mufti Saeed Ahmed Palunpuri's UK Moonsighting talk will soon be available to hear on the Masjid e Quba website.

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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2007 18:31

who are masjid e quba following?

The moon sighting of this country?

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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 12th October 2007 00:20

I think they follow Saudi although we are in the uk.

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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 13th October 2007 12:08

i just like to point out the main problem in the masajid is people don't want to hear the truth. the masjid are run by peolpe with no knolewedge of din so when a alim shiekh does a bayan and gives his opionion the managment of the massjid don't want to listen.which causes disunity. when it comes to the the managment of the masjid their should listen to the imam of the masajid. the moon sighting mufti saeed in his a bayan he said following saudi is doubtfull. we cant says their wrong because their say their look at the moon. in this case we should look at the country around saudi and see if their seen the moon if their have then do eid if not the should fast one day and do eid next day. but the managemet of the masjd don't want to listen to the local imam. because people just want the easy way out. may allah give hidayat to the communty and make peolpe listen to the ulama of truth. when a alim of haq speaks haq people don't want to listen which then causes finta and disuntiy. wassalam. make duaa and rememeber me in your pious duaa

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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 15th October 2007 17:37

i am bimused that no one has ask saudi goverment that our mufti says their moon sighting is doubtfull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Saudi arabia is the only islamic country who follow sharia law but no any other country. we are the community of the self distruction, knowingly or unknowingly we are working aginst our cause / or our religion / or our community its helping enemy of Islam /specially by the action of our Alim/ Mufti. Both Party has fatawa from darulum deoband!!!!! How can u believe them as they know how to twist truth!!!!!

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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 16th October 2007 11:33

Yes both parties do have responses from Deoband but the BIG dif is that one party -Hizbul Ulama - has a letter from Deoband dated around 20 years ago and NOTHING else since then and the other party - Wifaqul Ulama - has one dated 6/7 months ago AND also has the Senior Muhaddith of Deoband here in the UK currently saying the same thing that was said in the letter sent 7 months ago and not the old letter sent 20 years ago. (Wifaqul Ulama also has similar recent responses from Shaharanpur, Dhabel and others as well as responses from Bin Baaz, Otheimein and Yusuf Qadawi).

No one else can be in a better position then Hzt Mft Saaed DB as he was the main Aalim here in UK in 1988 when the 1 single problem occurred in ramdhan when the news from Morocco came late and all the ulama went to him for his advice and all acted on his advice cept for 1 - which is now known as Hizbul Ulama.

Simple rule : If we accept haq no power on earth can stop Haq and those that follow it however if we toy with haq and don't, cuase of our own egos, then even the smallest powers on earth would be hard for us.

www.icoproject.org/icop/shw28.html

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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 16th October 2007 11:38

Forget about our mufti etc telling their government that they have doubts even their own Saudi ulama have tried but the government wont listen. A government who don't listen to their own ulama when they request them to stop being soo close with those that seek to divide you think they'd listen to them on anything else??? I don't think so.

If the SA government even listened to their own ulama 50% of the time the whole entire Middle East would be a much better place to live in then it is now.

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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 16th October 2007 11:50

For those thats gonna jump up and down saying "its for our own ulama to sit down and sort this outand not get outsiders as they don't know what's going on"

Over the past 12+ month Hizbul ulama has been kindled asked via, phone, email, face-to-face etc for simple respectful meeting to respectfully discuss the matter not only by Wifaqul Ulama but other institution and individual both Ulama and non-ulama but have refused I think on more then 7/8 occasion. Twice the main Deobandi edara's of the UK were approached once I think by 15 UK ulama once that failed (as they were told that the Moon issue wont be discussed at all) then they thought they take many more ulama as the more you take the likely you are to have the discussion so the next time they took 40 UK ulama again they were refused.

So many many ulama here in the UK have tried themselves to sort it out but still not even a single discussion but just a wall of silence and not evidence being provided whatsoever. So what other option to some proactive ulama here have other then go to the high court of the Deobandi fraternity - Darul Loom Deoband - to get a ruling and ask their most senior Muhaddith (who's been treaching hadtih for 35 years there so might know a thing or two about Shariah) to comment on it twice this month. What do people want further that an angel comes down from the heavens to pass judgement!?!?!

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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 16th October 2007 15:09

personally no offence but i dont think its right in saying "twisting the truth". I dont quite think you understand how high the stakes are on this.

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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 16th October 2007 16:23

As a jahil, my thinking on this is that our UK Edara's are in a very very deep compromising situation here and a lot of them and others know how incredibly astronomically high the stakes may be on this one single issue.

The Stakes

The overwhelming world wide view of our Hanafi Deobandi view is not to follow Saudi or if you do then don't only follow them - least use another country to your East to verify them - so that's the Haq position.

Now the situation as I see it (so this aint fact but just how I see it) that our main UK edara's here are in is that of course they all wish to follow what their Deobandi akaaberiin in Deoband, Shaharapur, Dhabal, Mft Taqi etc etc are telling them but know what the public response may be that "how comes you never told us this in the last 20 years!?" "which means least one of my farz fasts for each of the past 20 years may have been dodgy which you fully knew which means I got plenty of qaza to do". This very single issue may well bring the whole credibility of all our main UK edara's into question which of course we have benefited hugely hugely from and continue to do so and inshallah will continue for years, decades, centuries to come.

But the dilemma is this - loose or risk your whole credibility and tell the UK Deobandi masses that yes ulama of Deoband, Shaharanpur etc are right and we are now going to follow their advice/haq (i.e by following moon criteria of Wifaqul Ulama or something similar) or keep your credibility intact and stick to a moon criteria which you know deep in your heart and from your Deoband/Shaharanpur etc Ulama which is dodgy and also face being questioned on qiyamat for the fast of approx some 250,000 Deobandi maslak UK people's farz fast for least 20+ years.

I have no answer in how to resolve it in a way that allows us all to heed the advice of our main shuyook/ulama of Deoband etc (and basic common sense really) and at the same time keep the full integrity/credibility of our dear Deobandi edara's and Shuyook in the UK (may allah protect them all and except all there efforts and continue to do so)..

I know fully that most of us who regularly use deeni websites like this and others. read kitabs, hear cds etc and regularly attend the discourses of our UK akaaberiin will not think any less of them (inshallah) or their institutions whatsoever however others who don't have that connection with them may well question them severely.

Also I know theres plenty other things we have major issues with and should be concentrating on here in the UK then this Moon issue however the simple fact is its the question of possibily missing a single farz fast not for just 1 year but years and years to come

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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 16th October 2007 17:17

is it only Ramdhan we look for moon sighting?

if some one says No then it should be whole year 12 islamic month,

and as moon is not visible complet 30 days for that month so that 360 days a year instead of 354 days.

so we will be behind 6 days every year and time will come when people will be going for Hajj and we will be still fasting for Month of Ramdhan!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice one!!!!

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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 16th October 2007 17:51

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so we will be behind 6 days every year and time will come when people will be going for Hajj and we will be still fasting for Month of Ramdhan!!!!!!!!!!!

A lunar month is either 29 days or 30. Because of this continuous change, the months will always balance out as there can only be a maximum or 2 groups. Those who say new moon is today and those who say new moon is tomorrow. No one will say it on the 31st day. If 2 groups begin the month together, the Ikhtilaaf will be the end of the month. The following month will then switch in Ikhtilaaf or both groups will be together. Switching meaning the group which ended the month after 29 will now end 30 days later or the group which ended the month on 30 will end the month 29 days later or 30 again. The difference again will only be one day.

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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 16th October 2007 21:19

Yasin - It is quite feasible that those following Saudi have consecutive months of 29 days and those against have consecutive months of 30 days leaving one group 2 days short. This only has to happen once every so often and in theory people could be days out within a couple of years.

On a different note, eminent scholars such as Shaykh Riyadul Haq, Maulana Saleem Dhorat, Maulana Adam (leicester), Maulana Yusuf Motala all did Eid on Friday.

My uncle who is a maulana has heard Maulana Yusuf Motala Sahib confirm that the moon is sighted in Saudi and is not fixed as some people are alluding.

In any event why should the awwam worry about such technical matters, it's what we have the scholars for. I suggest, choose your scholar, follow him and putting it rather crudely, if he is wrong the burden lies with him.

What we don't need is people who do not have the requisite knowledge coming on this forum and posting quran ayats as a means of slating those that don't follow Wifaqul Ulama or for that matter any other group.

Difference of opinion, if I am not wrong, was present in the sahabahs' time. They did not go around referring to others by quoting ayats such as "wa qul ja al haqqu wu zuhaqul batil."

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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 17th October 2007 09:27

A scholars action is not hujjah. Regards the difference of opinion view the ulama of Deoband and Shaharanour and most of worlds Deobandi edara's, if not all, EXCEPT in the UK are ALL also unanimous in their view that for one to follow Saudi in their Hajj only is right besides that each country (or continent?) should follow their own - there is NO difference of opinion on that issue whatsoever. Yes if one still wants clarification then one should write to the respective edaras of Deoband and Shaharanpur rather then let Joe Public's post comments on forums.

If your gonna go down the eminent ulama route then Shaikhul-Hadith Bilal of Bury (also Khalifa of Shaykh Zakaria RA) done his on Saturday (and has been for ages) and the eminent Shaikhul Hadith of this very forum also done his side by side with the Senior Muhaddith of 35 years of Deoband Hzt Mufti Saeed DB at Queens Rd in Walthamstow.

Regards Shaykh Riyad when he was in B'ham's Central Masjid he didn't used to do it with Saudia as the guidance give by Hzt Yusuf Motala DB (far as I know) to all ulama leaving Bury is to follow your local masjid hence why Shaykh Riyad now does it with his local masjid.

The awaam rightly should care when such things are to do with their farz fasts. Would one also not give due care if there was a slightest doubt about the timings of one's farz salaats? Putting ones sole descion based solely on ones shaykh when/if you genuine know that even ones own shaikh's ulama in Deoband and Shaharanpur and most of the Deobandi world over disagree raises serious question marks in ones head. Yes matters such as ones tarbiyyah, tassuwuf etc may be ok to follow ones shaykh but when it's a clear cut fiqh maslah such as a farz fast then this is totally different.

Even if one scholar (even if it were someone from Deoband etc or indeed my shaikh in the UK) said he saw the moon etc in Saudia this still leaves the question if he did then why didn't approx say 40m other muslims in countries to the east of the UK also not see it (not only on this occasion but many others also over the past years) ?? Far as I know such testimonies are only taken into account if the amount of witness to see the moon are very very large in number - quantity of people not quality of people.

Yes I fully agree about awaam quoting ayats from quran and hadith. Like some weeks back one of my close friends was barking at a Mufti and Imam to show him hadith etc on some issue which kinda made me sick to say the least.

I assume we all here follow the Deobandi maslak in which going by the usools of our maslak it would be best for our UK ulama (as its only in the UK we have this prob) to gather few ulama from all sides, edara's etc and put it in front of a panel of world wide Deobandi ulama to rule on it. The decision would be biding on all. - This is what they (not Deobandi's but others) did in France.

All this asside I'm quite happy to see that its being discussed respectfully here on this forum.

Admin: has the option to edit old posts been removed???

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 17th October 2007 09:53

Regards the theory of being days out etc in theory yes you could say it may happen but reality is different. Many many countries around the world have not been following one single sighting (i.e. Saudia) for years, if not decades, but still they are not days out.

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Mufti Saeed Palunpuri MoonSighting Talk

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