02JULY2020: Hagia Sophia, Constantinople

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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 17:07

bint e aisha wrote:

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This question comes in my head every time I am standing in Hagia Sophia, how can they pray here for centuries with these images etc on the roof and covered up?

From Fiqh point of view if the Qadhi of Islam ruled it permissible then prayer is valid, they must have done it because Ottoman Empire had huge Christian following so they didn't want a rebellion in their ranks.

But I also wonder about this from a historical perspective (not now), they had the military power to deface Christian mosaic etc in a Masjid.

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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 17:23

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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I was told that at the time of Sultan Muhammad Fatih RA these paintings were covered with a special cement. However in 1931 the Byzantine Institute removed that cement and preserved the mosaics.

Now they should destroy them or cover them up completely with cements but they're using lighting tricks and that too during prayer times only. Do you think Salah will be valid if the frescoes are covered in such a manner just by lights?

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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 18:57

bint e aisha wrote:

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In my limited knowledge and opinion these mosaic should be stripped and removed from the Masjid. I always thought that it was always like that from the Ottoman times and they left it like that...

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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 19:19

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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 20:03

اَلسَّلاَ مُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكَا تُهُ

Im new member to the forum. As soon as i have signed up i saw thread on Hagia Sofia (Aya Sofya). As my name suggests im native Turkish sister. This topic has interested me. So i decided to write about Hagia Sofia itself. The forum is informative giving historical background on Hagia Sofia. Inshaallah i like add something from my own experience about Hagia Sofia - visiting Hagia Sofia multiple times. The latest i have visited was last year. I personally had been following both side's discussions. Inshaallah what i share shed little light to whats exactly going on in Hagia Sofia.

Hagia Sofia briefly is the symbol of the conquest. After Sultan Fateh Muhammad (Mehmet) rahimahullah conquered Constantinople (İstanbul). Sultan Fateh Muhammad rahimahullah has converted Hagia Sofia into a masjid. Just like how sister bint Aisha has mentioned, frescos inside were covered with special cement. I have personally this from a Professor of byzantine history. Hagia Sofia Masjid was not only made a Waqf but he has recorded Hagia Sofia Masjid under his own property. This is actually his foresight as if he hasnt done this, Allah Ta'ala knows what would have happened.

Unfortunately after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of Kemalist regime, every facet of the society experienced brutal secular reforms. Hagia Sofia wasnt an exception. There is a interesting thread on this topic on Twitter by a Turkish Historian. He has written the story how Hagia Sofia had been converted into museum. Briefly in this thread it was written that, under the name of restoration in Hagia Sofia Masjid, US Byzantine Institute along with Standard Oil Company (owned by Rockenfeller) help in converting Hagia Sofia Masjid into a museum. Restoration in Hagia Sofia started from 1931 to 1935. Only in 1933 it was opened to held Laylatul Qadr program. This was the time where Turkish recitation of Quran Majeed was broadcasted. According to the personal account of the head of US Byzantine institute, in short amount of time ataturk closed Hagia Sofia to worship legally, declared as 'unique architectural monument'. In a year later Hagia Sofia opened as a museum.

There are news stating that the first Adhan was called out in Hagia Sofia just recently 'after 86 years'. This is not entirely correct. First adhan was called in Hagia Sofia in 1980 under Demirel regime. In the same year coup d'etat happened and everything came to halt till 1991. In 1991 under Özal regime, Hagia Sofia is an compound actually. Inside this compound there are Sultan graves and a Masjid. This masjid's name is Hünkar (Hünkar Camii). It was previously build as a lounge for the Sultan to rest and Sultan would then proceed to actual Hagia Sofia Masjid. In 1991 Özal regime opened this lounge as a Masjid. Ever since adhan is being called out from there. Now how is adhan called from there is the big question? According to Fatih Governance website under Hagia Sofia (Aya Sofya) entery (now due to Hagia Sofia's statues they closed to access to it) it was stated there that, Adhan would be called out from one minaret of Hagia Sofia. So basically Adhan is being called out from Hagia Sofia since 1991.

Coming to recent times i skip how recently the State of Council had annualed the museum position of Hagia Sofia and last week President Erdogan has signed making Hagia Sofia's Masjid position offical.

In Turkey also outside of Turkey, people seem to not wonder the fate of those frescos. What actually made Hagia Sofia a museum is those same frescos actually. Thousands of tourist come there to see those frescos. Turkish museums are mostly under Ministry of Tourism (shortened) in their offical gift shows especially for Hagia Sofia, post card have those frescos but not only this, but items where christian symbols were sold there. Those people who been to Turkey would know how Hagia Sofia is advertised with - frescos mostly. Hagia Sofia wasnt the first example to be converted from museum into a masjid. But Trabzon Hagia Sofia was actually the first to be converted. There are more than one Hagia Sofia in the world. The famous Hagia Sofia is in İstanbul. Those who know Trabzon Hagia Sofia's situation would admit its terrible condition. Converted in 2014, Trabzon Hagia Sofia is legally a Masjid but none of the frescos were covered properly. If you go to the masjid, one fresco in the dome is visibly seen if you move to other side of the masjid. The dome and the prayer hall is covered by a white cloth. But still the fresco in the dome can be seen. On top of this, tourist guides basically talk to you about the frescos inside the masjid and outside the masjid. the outside frescos arent also covered as well.

Personally knowing the situation of Trabzon Hagia Sofia i was suspicious on how Hagia Sofia will be covered. This is where unfortunately people confuse you for defending its museum position. The question wasnt whether Hagia Sofia will be converted to a Masjid or not? It was inetivaible that it would be converted one day because Batil never wins. Hagia Sofia was wrongly converted into a museum and became a secular symbol Turkish Republic. Rather the big question is those frescos inside it? Unfortunately, those paintings wouldnt be covered. Instead as what sister bint Aisha has referred, "frescos are planned to be covered by laser light effect during Salah times but after the Salah time is over they would be open". I have the offical Turkish newspaper website backed by the government stating this too.

Now respected members, what is the difference between its museum position and now? Is the only difference putting prayer rugs and opening to a worship? What actually became means for Hagia Sofia into a museum were those frescos. You dont remove them but on the other hand talk about being converted to a masjid? For example: If the Spanish government said okay now i allow you to pray Salah there but its frescos wont be covered. Would you still pray your Salah there despite this? Hagia Sofia is the same actually.

Now one may criticrize me and point fingers too bash me for defending its museum position but when frescos in Hagia Sofia wouldnt be covered properly what is the difference? One may ask, but Turkey has done something big it took courage and stopped earning from Hagia Sofia as it used to. To answer to this question, if you think Turkey gains only from tickets, its a naive statement. Yes Turkey may lose its one part of the revenue but it would completely be losing its revenue on Istanbul as Hagia Sofia is opened to touristic visit. As soon as a tourist comes to Istanbul they actually bring foreign exchange as well. This is not an valid argument of Turkey being courageous.

Fatih Sultan Muhammad rahimahullah has left us Hagia Sofia Masjid properly covered. If you are saying we are converting to a masjid you should convert it properly. No Muslim will choose to pray Salah in a place where a fresco is above you and looking at you. (im referring to current condition. historical events shouldnt be misquoted.)

Turkey is not the same Turkey anymore. Those who argue but 'yeah they are doing step by step give them credit' are too optimistic and dont truly understand Turkish politics. This is not the discussion of this thread but Turkey in gist, what is presented of Turkey by media isnt reflected in the society. Its nothing much than but a propaganda. It is the responsibility of Turkish speakers to shed light about Turkey. This is the reason i wrote here as a Turk.

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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 20:34

[QUOTE:145041:Türk
wa'alaykumus salaam warahmatullaahi wabarakaatuhu
Welcome to our Turkish sister and jazaakillah for posting, very informative

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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 20:37

bint e aisha wrote:

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Dear Bint Aisha, the picture you quoted has dates that doesnt match when Hagia Sofia was converted into a museum. Hagia Sofia was offically opened as a museum in 1935. The renovation took 4 years. the State of Council declares Hagia Sofia as a monument in 1934. In 1931 it began but was still as masjid at the time. Unfortunately i cant share personal account of Wittemore due to being new member.

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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 20:37

Türk Kızı wrote:

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Salaam.

Welcome to the forum.

How do the people of Turkey feel about all of this? Is the majority for or against It?

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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 20:39

ummi taalib wrote:

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Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Dearest sister Jazakallahu Khayran Katheeran for the warm welcoming. Ameen wa iyyakum. Hope the post is benefical.

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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 20:43

Türk Kızı wrote:

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وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

Welcome to the forum. And thanks for writing in so much detail.

Türk Kızı wrote:

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Thank you for the correction.

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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 20:46

xs11ax wrote:

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Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Jazakallahu Khayran Katheeran

This is a difficult question. The reason is because, there is info pollution, its not easy to understand general segment as there is unfortunately a reality called political trolls. However my personal opinion is that the decision was welcomed by majority of Turks. Deenidar segment had always voiced about Hagia Sofia. Hagia Sofia struggle was had always there even before Erbakan came into political scene. However personally im trully dissapointed but not suprised also because when you say it will be converted as Masjid it should be converted as a Masjid but the frescos are still there...

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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 20:58

Türk Kızı wrote:

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W-Salam,

Welcome to the forum and I have always wondered about the frescos and wrongly assumed that the Ottomans had left it...

Jazakallahu Khayran for your input but in my opinion the Turkish society is not ready for a massive shift but it is coming and the progress is being made. Istanbul from late 1990s to now is unrecognisable in terms of Islam

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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 21:08

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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Yes what happened to those frescos arent really known generally. Fatih Sultan Muhammad rahimahullah had ordered to be covered with a special cement but unfortunately removed during the renovation.

Ameen wa iyyaki, if there is suitable forum discussion i like to speak about your second point brother. In gist, Turkey Deenidar became modernized. Thats actually the big problem. Previously Turkish Deenidar had common goal and objective that was to struggle against secularism by trying to protect their Deeni identities. However this has changed unfortunately. My personal opinion is that its not about not being ready to Islam anymore but its about, losing Deeni minset and struggle for the sake of Allah.

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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 21:16

Türk Kızı wrote:

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ok, we are discussing two separate issues here.

Historically the religious (or Deendar) people in Turkey were sparse but simplistic. I travelled 4,000 KM in Turkey and the religious people were simplistic and down to Earth.

Now, I see more "visible signs" of Islam and more people on Islam but modernisation has become more widespread.

To give you an example, I was travelling in a baseball cap in Anatolia and a Shaykh took me aside and said, "You know our history with Caps and you seem to be on the Deen so why are you wearing this?" Those were simpler times.

Also their adherence to Hanafi Madhab and Tasawuff was in their DNA, now like Balkans many Turks ascribe Madhabs to their grandfather generation. The difference with Balkans is that Muslims in Balkans are Pro-Hizbut-Tahrir while Turks are "modernising" but not to the extent of Balkans.

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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 18th July 2020 21:27

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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Brother, i dont know if you lived in Turkey or not travelling is different than living inside a country. If you lived in Turkey more than 10 years, this point is acceptable. However though you are so right about modernization signs. If not, then travel experience is not enough generalize for whole Turkey. Second, which Deenidars? I can tell you Eastern Anatolian Deenidars are more different than Istanbul Deenidars. Personally, Im from the East.

But what you mention on visible signs is true but the definition of being Deenidar is a complex term. Its not about praying Salah five times a day and having Sunnah beard wearing Burqa and Niqab(in Turkey Niqab is very rare), its about the mindset. Turkey lost this mindset unfortunately.

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02JULY2020: Hagia Sophia, Constantinople

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