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Shawwal 1441 Moonsighting: Eid around the World

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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 24th May 2020 02:08
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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What a reply, your temperament is for all to see.
If you cannot discuss calmly nor address the facts, you rather post on your blog.
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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 24th May 2020 11:52
Zubayr wrote:
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You are not discussing, you are venting!

Your Message: 23MAY2020@ 18:07

Quote:
Many (east and non east) African countries spotted the hilal and are doing eid saturday (today)

=>why haven't their views be taken into account in UK ?
=>Or is only SA sighting valid ?
=>If science cannot be reliable for determination of the month, it seems it cannot neither be reliable for excluding a sighting (as is the case of these african countries)


Response 1: Your Message: 23MAY2020@ 12:44

Scientifically answered roughly 5 hours before you even asked the question about East African Sighting

www.muftisays.com/forums/27-sharing-portal/13390-shawwal-...

Response 2: Your Message: 23MAY2020@ 22:54

"=>Or is only SA sighting valid ?"

South Africa is not followed!

Loading tweet


But you are still arguing EVEN when the issue is dead centre in front of your eyes.

On both grounds you are insisting to be heard which is fine but you have no grounds to pursue on either. For the past 17 years I am in touch with most committees and Ulama in Africa (personally) and I have some knowledge (not all and not complete) as to which countries have a 12 monthly Moonsighting system and which don't. When it comes to Ramadhan (everyone posts on Facebook) about Moon sighted here or Moon sighted there but the fact remains that you need a system:

  1. People actual sight the Moon
  2. People have a system to forward these sightings to Ulama
  3. Ulama check and verify and then issue Judgements
  4. Happens for all 12 months


Those countries which have this in place are already in the loop but you have read some Facebook page (or news report) and want 3 Million British Muslims to abandon an obligatory fast (of Saturday) on your preconceived notion and you want to be taken seriously.

You have asked the question about South Africa before and I have proven to you (before) that South Africa is NOT THE ONLY CRITERIA. I know that you have ignored detailed responses to you in the past BUT...

Today (24th of May 2020):

  1. South Africans are fasting
  2. British Muslims (united) have Eidul-Fit'r

Its dead in front of your eyes but you will still bring the same issue again because "you just want to vent!"

Discussion require deliberate and detailed planning, venting just requires hot air and an Internet connection.
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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 24th May 2020 15:23
What are you on these days, everything ok in your life ? What is this way of replying ? If mods are okay with this unbrotherly tone then khayr let me answer to your points in your own style :

1- Thanks for letting me know of your reply, you could have started with this if you wanted to be constructive, but no you had to decide I was "venting". The truth is I didn't see this message of yours, since somebody has been spaming the forum thinking it was his notepad. And yes, next time no need to make a 2 minutes v-log video to try to pathetically show off your high-intensive scientific faculties of a retired soldier in touch with 10K ulama all over the world, when in reality your butt was as seated as mine, and you were clicking and pasting.

2- Ok fine SA is not followed this time, it's just I read the opposite on Wifaq Ulama website once, that it can be followed, may be it changed, because some people behind this lobbying are may be lunatics. I also never said it was the only criteria of Wifaq but oh well I must be wrong about myself also.

3- Fine I was venting, next time a surgeon needs to open the heart I will give your twitter account since you have plenty of time to assist in this task of judjing people's intention. Yes of course I wanted the british muslims to do eid on saturday, my shops were waiting for this, dang it !

All in all, the older your get, the less wise you are it seems, and just like you decreed Covid-19 is not propagated by aerosols, I will end this discussion in saying you are right and the world will be safer with you at its command on twitter.
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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 24th May 2020 16:42
Zubayr wrote:
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"I missed it" or "I didn't know" would be the response of a normal, balanced and grounded human being with Fear of reckoning of Allah Ta'ala on the day of judgement.

A frustrated individual with "issues" and out to "vent" on the other hand...





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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 24th May 2020 20:37
Both of you just give it a rest and Enjoy Eid!

(This is specifically regarding the personal stuff back and forth.)
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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 25th May 2020 17:14
Came across the following:

By Sharif Abu Laith

One of the biggest diseases when it comes to splits over sighting the new moon is these sighting charts.
They are fundamentally scientifically flawed.

1. They use an outdated and scientifically discredited idea of the danjon limit. It’s now believed no such limit exists

2. It’s a probabilistic chart meaning it’s dhanni (indefinite) and not certain. To use this chart to discount the actual testimony of a person has no basis whatsoever.

3. These charts are built on assumptions that are not scientifically proven but subjective. E.g. They do not account for testimonies of sighting before sunset, or they only refer to non Muslim amateur scientists for “verified sightings” thus ignoring many testimonies from Muslims themselves.

This is what moonsighting.com claim note they use a criteria that is based on cities, with light pollution, and after sunset…

“Please note that our visibility maps are calculated for visibility at local sunset time at every point on the globe for a specific date. All those calculations are based on the collected observation data after sunset (from 1860 AD to the present) from different locations on the globe. The data of observations we have were all from cities which have city lights, city pollution and after sunset. We do not have any data for sighting before sunset. New evidence show that Saudi claims of sighting comes from desert areas and many times the sightings were before sunset. We, at moonsighting.com started calculating the possibility of sighting before sunset, and our finding for sighting possibility before sunset (under consideraion of Saudi desert areas) was a big surprise. The moon being few degrees above the horizon before sunset may have been seen, which would set in a short time and would not be visible if people try to see it after sunset. It should also be noted that the new crescent moon in desert areas with dry climate and no city lights and no city pollution would have very different refraction effects.”

Therefore to use a probabilistic indefinite sighting chart to discount a valid testimony is wrong and needs a fundamental reconsideration from those that use it.

Most if not all Muslims who attempt to use it do not even understand the “science” nor its probabilistic nature behind these charts, yet take it as though it’s certain (qati).

Finally there’s no possible calculations to determine sighting. Yes NO possible way to calculated it with certainty that’s because a number of variables cannot be predicted for instance

1. Light pollution
2. Luminosity at twilight
3. Wind direction
4. Humidity
5 atmospheric pressure
6. The level of eyesight of the individual(s) viewing the moon.
That’s in addition to the elliptical orbit of the moon (gets closer towards the earth at certain periods), variable speed of the moon which changes.

All this makes it IMPOSSIBLE to use calculations to determine when it is possible to sight the moon.

Therefore how can we use a dhanni calculations to disregard what the text has commanded which is to follow a valid testimony (even if there’s still a possibility of error we are still commanded explicitly to follow this).

Thus these charts are a fitnah that should be thrown away
In fact if these charts were thrown away we’d probably have a lot more unity over the issue.
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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 25th May 2020 17:46
mSiddiqui wrote:
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No idea who this guy is but he doesn't understand calculations at all.

With the greatest respect! God save those who are listening to him

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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 25th May 2020 21:21
mSiddiqui wrote:
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For Laymen

The fundamental issue of our times is people give an opinion about issues in which they lack sufficient or much knowledge. Allah Ta'ala teaches humility so if we don't know something we are supposed to admit our shortcoming and then learn.

Our whole Deen is about "learning" from cradle to grave.

The Sun and the Moon follow precise calculations and it is mentioned in the Qur'aan with the most direct reference, here:

Loading Qur'aan Verse

To say that Astronomical calculations (pertaining to the Sun and the Moon, specifically) do not exist DIRECTLY contradicts the Qur'aan let alone science.

Having said that, we are talking about "calculations" and not "Predictions" about something.

On a practical level, your whole life revolves around the ABSOLUTE PRECISE calculations of the Solar system.

  1. Without the precise Calculations pertaining to the Solar System, planes won't fly.
  2. Without the precise Calculations pertaining to the Solar System, Satellites won't orbit the Earth
  3. All modern communication (Phone, TV, Radios) and GPS navigation will not exist


Your Mosque Timetable is based on "Astronomical Calculations", 2 days ago you finished the entire month of Ramadhan by closing the fast by looking at the Timetable and opening the fast by looking at the timetable. Even if you say that I quit eating 5 minutes before and opened my fast 5 minutes after you still used "Astronomical Calculations".

In Islamic Fiqh there are two terms:

  • Qati' = Definitive
  • Dhanni = Speculative i.e. a claim to sight the Moon is someone's claim and not definitive


  1. Sunrise is a Precise Calculation, thus Qati'
  2. Sunset is a Precise Calculation, thus Qati'
  3. New Moon Conjunction is a Precise Calculation, thus Qati'
  4. Moonrise is a Precise Calculation, thus Qati'
  5. Moonset is a Precise Calculation, thus Qati'


This is accepted in the books of Fiqh (of the past) and today there is a consensus of Ulama on these PRECISE matters. This implies that if someone sights the "Moon" before conjunction OR after Moonset it is an impossibility.

It is adopted by World Ulama, including Saudi Arabia so Ummul-Qura states:

www.ummulqura.org.sa/About.aspx

Quote:
In 1420 H, the coordinates of the Kaaba were adopted as the basis of the Umm Al-Qura calendar. If moonset occurs after sunset at Mecca, then the day beginning at that sunset is considered the first day of the new month.


The coloured graphs are a guide and not a means to REJECT testimonies. A "Mufti" needs to know how to use "Astronomical Calculations" exactly and precisely (I am not saying Graphs).

This person needs to be asked 3 simple questions:

  1. Did you start and end your Fast by using "Astronomical Calculations" in the timetable?
  2. Why?
  3. If you believe that the Sun has set once your Calendar says it then why do you believe that the Moon has not set when the same "Astronomical Calculations" say it? What is your evidence for "sunset" to be Qati' i.e. "Definitive" but "Moonset" to be Dhanni i.e Speculative?


???
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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 25th May 2020 23:35
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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jazakAllah Khair
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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 26th May 2020 09:13
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote from Mufti Taqi Usmani Sab DB. This is on why calculation or criteria of moon sighting is not guaranteed.

hilal ambiguity.JPG
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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 27th May 2020 23:04
Canadian 'Con Artists'

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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 28th May 2020 00:18
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I totally agree. Egoistic and rude behaviour should not be tolerated on this forum. It deters many genuine and sincere people from continuing on this forum. People do not come here to hear abuse. If someone cannot have a fruitful discussion without allowing his/her blood pressure getting the better of them, they should be banned or at least reprimanded, regardless of who they are. This demeanour that 'its my way or the highway' should not be allowed. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and their opinion should be respected. We are allowed to challenge other opinions that we do not agree with but we, as Muslims, should be mindful of the sentiments of others.

Just look at the sublime character of our beloved Nabi (SAW) who did not allow any kind of distress or discomfort even to the animals. The A'immah and scholars of the past, despite their differences, were able to sit together and discuss Masa'il all night.

Because of our sour character we may be the means of putting someone off from good or from Islam altogether. Many have stopped using this forum due to the attitude of certain individuals. Please let us not be the means of dividing an already fragmented Ummah.

Mods are requested to pull up their socks and take action as they as responsible to maintain order and justice on this forum.
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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 28th May 2020 11:27
Pakora wrote:
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Very fine and engaging post when stripped of context and reality. There are people who genuinely hate and dislike me so it isn't hard to get awards and like for posts which directly target me.

If these people could like posts which deny Allah Ta'ala in opposition to me, they would.

  • There is a difference between asking a question, learning and broadening your horizon and ranting with an Agenda.
  • There is a difference between "inviting someone towards Islam" and dealing with someone with the intent to spread Fitnah.
  • Most people forget that I have had nearly two decades of knowing certain people. I know "who they are" and "what they do" behind the scenes so again Husnudh-Dhan should flow both ways and people should "grudgingly acknowledge" that maybe there is something deeper which we don't know about.
  • Hazrat Thanwi (RA) wrote, "If you someone with an eye missing do not blame the other person (automatically) because you don't know if the person (with the missing eye) gouged the eye of the other, first.


And this friends, is Islam and Justice. Prejudgement is neither Islam nor Judgement.

Giving everyone their fair chance and due.

There is room for disagreement and there is room for civility and there is always (and should be) room for following the Sunnah but ranting with an agenda with the intention for Fitnah and Fasad should be curbed.

Evidence to prove my point:

Below are the discussion from purely factual point of view:

Loading tweet


www.muftisays.com/forums/27-sharing-portal/13390-shawwal-...

Those who wish to "learn" could have read them, asked question, discussed and disagreed (no problems) instead of going on "Anti Muadh Khan" rants for days on end.

They could have also given Nasheeha "I didn't think the brother meant it that way and you shouldn't have responded that way" etc INSTEAD of "Anti Muadh Khan" rants clearly with an agenda.

It is what it is.

The clear FACT of Shawwal 1441 is:

  1. South Africans fasted on Sunday
  2. British Muslims celebrated Eid.




P.S: It has happened previously as well but just giving an example of less then 10 days to show the "rants" of those who have some kind of agenda
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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 28th May 2020 13:28
50
Loading Qur'aan Verse
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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 28th May 2020 15:06
Pakora wrote:
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Loading Qur'aan Verse
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