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Mufti-e-Azam Pakistan Mufti Rafi Usmani (HA) on being Deobandi!

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#451 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 11:53
bint e aisha wrote:
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This thread is littered with subcontinental trolls.
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#452 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 12:10
Imam Ali wrote:
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Yes I know you are originally from subcontinent.
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#453 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 12:13
bint e aisha wrote:
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Imam Ali is no troll :)
He is a very sweet fellow.

This thread is enough to sit on anybody’s nerves,including myself and Imam Ali. I tried even ‘dua e khair’ for it on page 30,that apparently did not work :)

Allah karim,every beginning has an end,one day people will stop posting here,then we will open all the windows ...and take a sigh of relief... :p
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#454 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 12:17
ALIF wrote:
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I think our actions determine what we believe. Others will label automatically!

When I go to a Masjid, within seconds, I know where I am and they know or are unsure of who/what I am

Our outer "libas" and "actions" should tell us who we are.

These are based on real incidents:
In a Barelwi Masjid I walk in (In India, Pakistan or the UK) and they see that I have my trousers "turned up" above my ankles - they know I am not Barelwi. I don't kiss my thumbs during Adhan, they know I'm not Barelwi, I don't stay for Salaam, they know I'm not Barelwi. I don't attend their Urs, they know I'm not Barelwi, I don't go to Milaads, they know I'm not Barelwi.

In a Salafi Masjid I walk in anywhere and they see how I offer Salah, my beard is not like the Sikh religion where it is MASSIVE and untidy. But they know from my actions that I'm not a Barelwi either. Firstly if I was, I wouldn't be in their Masjid. I offer Sunnah Salah and they know I'm not a Salafi.

In shopping areas or restaurants in Pakistan (I can only relate to Pakistan because of my recent visits over the past few decades), the people there could immediately tell that I was not one of them even though I'm wearing a simple Shalwar Kameez (or even if I'm wearing jeans and a top) and no hat and not even speaking one word. It's not like I've got purple skin or something :)

In fact, there is further confusion for these people when they wonder what I am doing in their Masjid. "I just want to pray"

I get identified without my label being attached verbally. I get identified without any tail hanging behind me.

I get labelled by my manners, akhlaq, method of praying, style of clothing even though it is their own style.


In reality, these labels aren't really needed until it comes down to the nity gritty.

When people signed up to this forum, did they look for signs of any Deobandi tag, or did they see that there were no signs of Barelwism or Salafism. What they saw was the types of scholars and the tpyes of work or that their friends are on here too.

When I see a new website, I look for signs to identify their school - it's not always apparent. I look for their scholars and so on.

Of course, you visit any Barelwi site and you know almost immediately that they are not of your liking.
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#455 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 12:19
ALIF wrote:
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No hard feelings paaji even though I don't take back what I said about the antics of this thread.

May Allah (SWT) keep you happy too and steadfast on the path of Haq.

May Allah (SWT) award Jannah Al Firdaus without reckoning, enable you to recite the kalimah before you pass and to pass the examination of the grave with noor success. Ameen! :)
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#456 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 12:25
Imam Ali wrote:
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امين !

جزاك الله احسن الجزاء

May Allah swt grant you the same and more...but I can’t think of anything more than what you have already said,that is ALL we are looking for,InshaAllah
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#457 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 15:09
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abu mohammed wrote:
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I agree with you...

This whole thread is based on misunderstanding.Hazrat Mufti Rafi Usmani db denies deoband as a 'sect' or 'cult' not as an 'entity'...otherwise there was no need to make a long speech on the subject,he could have simply quoted a few quotes from Ml Ahmad Raza khan (RA) along with his own Akabir,(in his words "our elders"), he could have narrated a few incidents of 'Ishq e Rasool' of Ml Ahmad Raza sahib RA,he could have even recited one of his nasheed, and the message would have gone loud and clear that there is no 'ours' vs 'theirs'...."actions speak louder than words"....He did not do that !

He narrates the story of the hair cutter of Hazrat Gangohi RA,who asked about which particular act is more correct version of Sunna and ml khalil Ahmad RA responds:"The way you saw Hazrat Gangohi doing it".... This trust on the Sunna interpretation of Hazrat Gangohi RA is 'the spirit' of deoband.when one accepts the spirit,accepting the 'name' becomes secondary STILL names save a lot of our own time to express the spirit behind it,hence there is no escape from it.

Deoband is the true interpretation of the opinions of 'Ahle Sunna wal Jamat' in the subcontinental background.It is NOT a sect,those who think it is,are wrong.It is NOT a cult either,those who take it as a cult are dead wrong,but trying to snatch its name is sort of extreme attitude.Both Mufti Rafi db and Muad khan are highlighting 'only' this point,nothing more....and I agree with them both, with only one difference,let the name stand as it is,it reflects not only clarity of aqeeda and practice but a history of the struggle of our elders for Qur'an and Sunna,starting from the time much before the creation of Darul Uloom (but in continuity with it),passing through the reformation movement of Shaikh Ahmad Sarhindi,the social,political and academic efforts of Shah Waliullah,the sacred blood of the martyrs of Balakot,the days and nights spent in Malta and the spiritual bliss of khanaqah Imdadia.Negation of history always prove counter productive.
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#458 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 15:33
ALIF wrote:
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This thread is enough to sit on anybody’s nerves,including myself and Imam Ali. I tried even ‘dua e khair’ for it on page 30,that apparently did not work :)

That is very distressing to know my brother. Please have heart. Insha Allah things should soon settle down to their own level. Though I am a participant in it but I assure you things are not that bad as you are getting the impression. I know these things from SF days. By the Grace of Allah SWT, in my view, the worst is in past as far as these theological hair splittings go. Please relax.

And Allah SWT knows the best.
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#459 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 15:49

Maripat wrote:
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The Fightclub

A person came out and saw two people fighting. He immediately started shouting “What is wrong with you two? Why are you twofighting?”

Then he sees a person with the Beard and starts rebuking him, “Look at you, you have the Beard is this how you behave?”

This person neve r saw that 5 minutes before the “Non-bearded person” had assaulted the “Bearded person” and he was merely trying to defend himself.

BEFORE, SINCE and AFTER the establishment of Darul-uloom Deoband, the Ulama have NEVER ONCE:

  1.     Declared themselves to be a Sect called “Deoband”
  2.     Advised anyone that they belong to a separate entity called “Deoband”

They have instead steadfastly and repeatedly stated that “Deoband”is a continuation of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jamaat.

When people are reminded of these FACTS, they instead of reflecting, they ATTACK the one reminding them and accuse them of sectarianism and theological hair-splitting.


  1.     The Ulama NEVER called themselves “Deobandi” as a separate and distinct identity.
  2.     The Ulama NEVER called themselves “Hayati” or “Mamati”, itis a legitimate difference of opinion on both sides.

Layman with distinct lack of knowledge, labelled themselves as:

  1.     Deobandi
  2.     Deobandi Hanafi
  3.     Deobandi Hanafi Hayati
  4.     Deobandi Hanafi Hayati (Aalami Shura)

When attempts are made to remind them of what Allah Ta’ala commands in the Qur’aan, those reminding are accused of stoking sectarianism and engaging in theological hair-splitting.

Being a “Deobandi” is miles apart from appreciating andfollowing the “Ulama of Deoband”, be it Ulama of Darul-uloom Deoband, Ulama ofDarul-uloom Deoband (Waqf) or Ulama of Darul-uloom Karachi or Ulama of Darul-uloom Khairul-Madaris etc. NONE OF THEM CREATED A CULT/SECT!!!

This is what Allah Ta’ala states on the topic:

Loading Qur'aan Verse


[3:103] And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided.


Loading Qur'aan Verse


[3:19] Truly, the (recognized) religion in the sight of Allah is Islam . Those who have been given the Book did not differ (among themselves) until after the knowledge had come to them, (and all this) due to envy against each other. Whoever denies the verses of Allah, then, Allah is swift at reckoning.


Loading Qur'aan Verse


[22:78] Struggle for (seeking the pleasure of) Allah, a struggle that is owed to Him. He has chosen you and did not impose any hardship on you in the religion, the faith of your father Ibrahim. He (Allah) named you as Muslims earlier and also in this (Qur‗an), so that the Messenger becomes a witness to you, and you become witnesses to (other) people. So establish Salah, pay Zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your patron. So, how excellent He is as a patron, and how excellent as a supporter!

How many more Babri Masajid will have to be destroyed BEFORE we come to grip with our dire situation? We are willing to classify ourselves and then split it even further and further.

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#460 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 16:11
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Please....

It is not deoband vs Islam
It is deoband FOR Islam
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#461 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 16:43
Maripat wrote:
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JazakAllah Maripat

You are a kind man :)
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#462 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 16:49
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:
Hazrat Assistant Professor Saheb,

Associate, not Assistant.
Quote:
There is a difference between:

Being a Deobandi Hanafi Hayati
Taking Deen from Ulama of Deoband

Theological hair-splitting. Not your field.
Quote:
1 has no definition and it is just arbitrary connotation. The fact it has gone from “Hanafi” to “Deobandi Hanafi” to now “Deobandi Hanafi Hayati” tells you that it is made up and will keep on morphing itself.

Damned if admit, damned if I don't.
Quote:
2 is Taqleed which is a requirment of Qur'aan.

When I replied to brother Asaghir this is what I meant and I have made this stance clear more than once.
You are making an attempt to put words in my mouth. This is against integrity.
Quote:
The astounding issue is that all these “pseudo Allamah Iqbal enthusiast” and “Keyboard khilafah warriors” have no issues with adopting a title from 1866. Whatever happened to?

In case Sipra is Keyboard warrior than from your later grouping it will make me pseudo Allam Iqbal enthusiasm. Khan Sahab I never showed that kind of disrespect for you.

*****
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:
When the Hindus come to break your Mosques they do not care if you are a Barelwee or a Deobandi Hanafi Hayati


Not the issue in this thread. Brother Sipra made a post in the thread with similar intentions and you did not pay due attention to that. Now you can not avail the same facility.

******
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:
I have an idea for you for Assistant Professor Saheb,

You can try calling yourself what Allah Ta'ala has called you instead of sticking to a term from 1866. How does that sound to you?

وَجَـٰهِدُواْ فِى ٱللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِۦ‌ۚ هُوَ ٱجۡتَبَٮٰكُمۡ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيۡكُمۡ فِى ٱلدِّينِ مِنۡ حَرَجٍ۬‌ۚ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمۡ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ‌ۚ هُوَ سَمَّٮٰكُمُ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ مِن قَبۡلُ وَفِى هَـٰذَا لِيَكُونَ ٱلرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيۡكُمۡ وَتَكُونُواْ شُہَدَآءَ عَلَى ٱلنَّاسِ‌ۚ فَأَقِيمُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتُواْ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَٱعۡتَصِمُواْ بِٱللَّهِ هُوَ مَوۡلَٮٰكُمۡ‌ۖ فَنِعۡمَ ٱلۡمَوۡلَىٰ وَنِعۡمَ ٱلنَّصِيرُ (٧٨)

[22:78] Struggle for (seeking the pleasure of) Allah, a struggle that is owed to Him. He has chosen you and did not impose any hardship on you in the religion, the faith of your father Ibrahim. He (Allah) named you as Muslims earlier and also in this (Qur‗an), so that the Messenger becomes a witness to you, and you become witnesses to (other) people. So establish Salah, pay Zakah and hold fast to Allah. He is your patron. So, how excellent He is as a patron, and how excellent as a supporter!


(1) Associate Professor, not Assistant.
(2) I bear witness that there is no god but God and Muhammed (PBUH) is His messenger.
(3) I bear witness that I am a Muslim.
(4) I bear witness that when I called myself a Deobandi I did mean that I take my Deen from the Ulama of Deoband and I had absolutely no intention to label Deoband explanation of Islam and Deoband revival of Islam as a sect. None at all.

*****
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:
Conclusion (from me):

Actions have implications.
When you conclude then the rest of us have a right to have a say about it.
You begin a non-productive thread on an issue that could have been summarized in one sentence: "From this set of videos containing a bayan of Mufti Rafi Usmani Sahab DB it is better that we do not call ourselves Deobandis".
Then you challenged the intelligence of all on the forum to translate it. You wasted one and half an hour of my listening time and three hours of formulation of the translation and many more hours of reading the thread again and again (yup Khan Sahab I take my Deen that seriously). You were bothering young minds with a non-productive issue peddling it as some kind of profundity. And after reading the comment by brother ALIF I am distressed how much distress you caused to young people.

This does not suit a senior person. As senior we are supposed to take care of youngsters and not take them on energy dissipating and agonizing roller coaster rides.

Quote:
If you have survived 29 pages of swipes in this thread, it would not have escaped your attention that not a single person claiming to be a “Deobandi” has given a definition of “Deobandi” in 29 pages. They have swiped, they have insulted, they have abused, they have tried to spin but they have spectacularly failed in defining “Deobandi”.

This is pedantic. I am from Aligarh and I do not get impressed by it and I assure you there are no gems and sapphires hidden in this.

Quote:

Nevertheless, there is a bigger failure in this thread which represents two individuals:

Maripat Saheb: He wishes to provide intellectual solutions to the problems of Muslims particularly those in India. Yet, in a country of close to 80% Non-Muslims, he has no problems identifying himself with a sectarian label and then have no issues with an even tighter label of “Deobandi Hanafi Hayati”

(1) There is a Buhtan here on me. I neither had any intention nor I acted in a way so as to create divisions among Muslims. I take my Deen from Deoband and that is the only crime I admit to. Anything else is neither my responsibility nor there is any cause to take exceptions on. If you are so fond of your brain wave that Mufti Sahab DB divulging why his father did not use the epithet Deobandi then say it in a sentence and be done with it. There is no conspiracy in Deoband or in my mind to create a division of Ummah. Fear God before generating a self-sustained meme of Buhtan.
(2) I shall not entertain issues of Muslim in India in this thread. You are welcome to open a thousand threads on that topic here and now. Lord most High willing I shall make myself present there.

Quote:

Sipraomer Saheb: He wishes to provide practical solutions to the problems of Muslims and believes in brining back Khilafah. The fundamental cornerstone of Khilafah is that sovereignty belongs to Allah Ta’ala, once again this person has no issues in identifying himself with a label

A youngster is passing through a delicate stage and you pound on him. That is neither wise nor honourable.
Quote:
This is different to people saying that “I follow Ulama of Deoband”. The issue in this thread is the label “Deobandi” which is separate and distinct from “following Ulama of Deoband”

It is a trifle of a difference, if there is one. In case there is monumental difference between the two then I have informed you what I meant. After that integrity demanded that you should have stopped not only the
accusation but this thread itself because the main point of this thread is not profound at all.

Mufti Sahab was making an overture to the followers of Maulana Tahir-ul-Qadri and that should it that.

Quote:

Once you have adopted a “label”, psychologically your entire point of view changes no matter what you profess (from your tongue).

Technically true but not applicable in the present case.
Quote:

It is psychological conditioning and this is what Mufti Rafi Usmani (HA) is saying by expressing his position.

I suppose I should absolve you of the responsibility of my psychological welfare.
And it will be a favour if you could return the favour.
I do not know why you get yourself entangled with the youngsters so much, again and again.
Youngsters are to be taken care of and not irritated and challenged.
Quote:

If you cannot see that while living in a country with 80% Non-Muslims, then nothing can make you understand it.

Sipra said similar things first in this thread. You ignored his post and now you are slapping the charges on me. I reject your charges.
Quote:

If you cannot see that while calling for Khilafah for "Muslims", then nothing can make you understand it.

A youngster has to be given a little bit of time to sort out his ideas. And that too has to be done softly.
I am sorry to say that you are not doing any such thing.

**********
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Someone has marked this post as old and I too agree.

***

Finally if Khan Sahab is looking for some kind of credit for his efforts then I suppose most of the people will agree to his efforts but there are exceptions, like the point he is trying to push in this thread. There is not much substance in his hue and cry in this discussion and no profundity at all. Theology is neither his duty nor his forte, with due respect and he should focus on those issues that he does better and is good at.

In particular bothering youngsters is not very productive.

****

(1) This set of comments is being made after the thread locking.

(2) Thanks God we can edit our earlier posts.

(3) To begin with I did not intend to be so harsh on Khan Sahab but in the process of formulating the reply it became so.

(4) I am sorry for that.

(5) Sorry to him and sorry to the rest of the brothers and sisters.

(6) Long back, during discussions with Mr Imad Madani Taliban I had decided that I shall keep the equation with brothers and sisters on that level that I shall keep the wrongs on my side and not wrong my brothers and sisters.

(7) This time around I slipped a bit on this point.

(8) Plus I did not manage to take into account the circumstances that are unfolding among UK Muslims. It was my responsibility to take the happenings there into account. Though I am still unaware of the actual events where this Deobandi or not question has become relevant.

(9) Plus I also erred on the side of not taking a few re-conciliatory statements from Khan Sahab into account.

(10) Indeed my intention was to fizzle out the situation but ultimately it became an hiatus.

(11) My apologies once again.

(12) Please try to continue the business as usual.

(13) I do feel that youngsters should be dealt with care and I have no option but to interject in their favour but in future I'll not assert that much so as to leave a bad taste in anyone's mind.

(14) Please try to relax and go about the business as usual. as much as you can.

(15) I suppose life has become like that. My objective is to create ease only and not tension.

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#463 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2019 17:40
31 Pages :(

The point being made by Muadh is that WE FOLLOW THE ULAMA OF DEOBAND!

He is saying that we can't call ourselves Deobandi because WE DIDN'T STUDY THERE, WE WEAR'NT BORN THERE!

It's so simple and logical what he is trying to say, but everyone wants to be part of the conversation then one word is taken out of context here, there and everywhere and we end up disliking posts by our brothers and sisters and just add to the discussion.



I hope everyone agrees that this is the case.

I stick to my words: I am a Muslim following the Hanafi School of thought and follow the Aqeedah as taught by Imam Abu Ja'far at-Tahawih.

In order for me to be what I am, I take my deen from various selected Ulama associated with Deoband because I accept that which is sound and suitable for me as a British Muslim Londoner, whilst others will take other various selected Ulama because they accept that which is sound and suitable for their native locations, but I'm not a Deobandi because I wasn't born there, nor did I study there physically. Nothing difficult to understand is it? (no need to answer, becasue now you won't be able to)

Everyone here has fallen prey to the technicalities of a definition and overlooked the whole point - thus we now have secterianism all over the world!

And that will conclude this thread.

I don't get many dislikes, mostly only comments on the iPhone :) but if it allows you to show your position, frustration, especially now that you can't reply, go ahead please. I will accept them as a lesson to be better in my akhlaq what more can I say.

Members are saying and reading what they are seeing not what is written.

What colours do you see?
GREEN
YELLOW
BLUE
BLACK
RED
GREY


Please remain on topic in the other threads.

JazakAllah.
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