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#121 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 13:54

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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Aaudhubillahi minshaitanirajeem.

Are you naughty?

Yes or no

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#122 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 13:56

sipraomer wrote:

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No!

Straight answer, now lets try you

Do you celeberate the birthday of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam)?

Yes or No?

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#123 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 13:58

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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Aaodhubillahiminshaitanirajeem

Are you a fauji?

Yes or No

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#124 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 13:58

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In answer to his question about Milad, then I would answer YES (but in context of my answer)

But....I don't have the strength do so :(

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#125 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 14:51

Quote:

For the record, I'm not a hafiz, or Alim. I'm not associated with any group, I'm not bait with any scholar, I'm not a Sufi, I'm not associated with any forms of circles, I don't understand Tasawwuf as much as others so i don't get into that, I don't discuss Tazkiyah, I'm not an Admin of Muftisays. I'm not a Barelwi :)

So what am I?

I am a Muslim of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaat following the Fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifa and have the Aqeedah of Tahawiyah

You and I are both on the same page brother. :)

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#126 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 15:13

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

I am a Muslim and obviously I am Sunni, as I can't imagine any Muslim not being a Sunni. In aqeedah I have read through the aqeedah of imam tahawi which I have accepted and teach to my family. Beyond that i dont get involved in matters of aqeedah. In fiqh I was brought up as a hanafi and as a result follow the hanafi fiqh and i don't have a problem with it and stick by what I know, but I also don't have a problem with learning from other ulama who take knowledge from other madhabs. I believe we should stick to the madhabs as they have gone through many years of processing through many different scholars going back to the salaf so there is safety in them. I was brought up as a deobandi and mix with the deobandi crowd, but I am probably just deobandi by association. My deobandiness is basically staying away from barelwis, and milads, and khatams, and all that stuff that the barelwis do.

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#127 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 15:17

"sipraomer wrote:

Be rest assured brother! My questions were not to make fun of you or taunt you.

That's not what I felt at all and if by my post that's what you've taken, then accept my apology. I was just answering your questions joyfully and then had the time to clear the confusion and clear the air :)

"sipraomer wrote:

Because I got confused about your stance for taqleed and Deoband school.

That's a shame, I thought you were familiar with the forum and sub sections. It is very apparent what I follow - I just don't always call myself a Deobandi. (that's been made clear already)

There are about 100,000 people in Deoband and not all of them are Muslim, but they are all Deobandi. Just like how Dr. Zakir Naik is a Hindu because he is from Hindustan.

Only 70% are Muslims :(

I'm sure there must be Barelwi Deobandi's too :):):)

Anyways, let's keep to the topic please. Looking forward to some of your beneficial posts :)

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#128 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 15:24

In fact most deobandis in the UK will have no idea what it means to be a deobandi apart from not getting involved with barelwis and salafis. And in some cases the lines between deobandis and salafis are a bit blurred.

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#129 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 15:36

Taqleed confusion...

Taqleed is an OBLIGATION upon the laymen as commanded and dictated by Allah Ta’ala in the Qur’aan.

This is a FACT which cannot be disputed:

www.central-mosque.com/index.php/taqleed/what-is-taqleed....

When it comes to laymen then they have NO MADHAB because his (or her) Madhab is the Madhab of the Mufti whom he or she chooses to make Taqleed of.

This is the opinion of the Hanafi Madhab.

library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&a...

مَطْلَبٌ الْعَامِّيُّ لَا مَذْهَبَ لَهُ قُلْت : وَأَيْضًا قَالُوا الْعَامِّيُّ لَا مَذْهَبَ لَهُ ، بَلْ مَذْهَبُهُ مَذْهَبُ مُفْتِيهِ ، وَعَلَّلَهُ فِي شَرْحِ التَّحْرِيرِ بِأَنَّ الْمَذْهَبَ إنَّمَا يَكُونُ لِمَنْ لَهُ نَوْعُ نَظَرٍ وَاسْتِدْلَالٍ وَبَصَرٍ بِالْمَذْهَبِ عَلَى حَسَبِهِ ، أَوْ لِمَنْ قَرَأَ كِتَابًا فِي فُرُوعِ ذَلِكَ الْمَذْهَبِ وَعَرَفَ فَتَاوَى إمَامِهِ وَأَقْوَالَهُ .

وَأَمَّا غَيْرُهُ مِمَّنْ قَالَ أَنَا حَنَفِيٌّ أَوْ شَافِعِيٌّ لَمْ يَصِرْ كَذَلِكَ بِمُجَرَّدِ الْقَوْلِ كَقَوْلِهِ أَنَا فَقِيهٌ أَوْ نَحْوِيٌّ ا هـ وَتَقَدَّمَ تَمَامُ ذَلِكَ فِي الْمُقَدِّمَةِ أَوَّلَ هَذَا الشَّرْحِ ، وَإِنَّمَا أَطَلْنَا فِي ذَلِكَ لِئَلَّا يَغْتَرَّ بَعْضُ الْجَهَلَةِ بِمَا يَقَعُ فِي الْكُتُبِ مِنْ إطْلَاقِ بَعْضِ الْعِبَارَاتِ الْمُوهِمَةِ خِلَافَ الْمُرَادِ فَيَحْمِلُهُمْ عَلَى تَنْقِيصِ الْأَئِمَّةِ الْمُجْتَهِدِينَ ، فَإِنَّ الْعُلَمَاءَ حَاشَاهُمْ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى أَنْ يُرِيدُوا الِازْدِرَاءَ بِمَذْهَبِ الشَّافِعِيِّ أَوْ غَيْرِهِ ، بَلْ يُطْلِقُونَ تِلْكَ الْعِبَارَاتِ بِالْمَنْعِ مِنْ الِانْتِقَالِ خَوْفًا مِنْ التَّلَاعُبِ بِمَذَاهِبِ الْمُجْتَهِدِينَ ، نَفَعَنَا اللَّهُ تَعَالَى بِهِمْ ، وَأَمَاتَنَا عَلَى حُبِّهِمْ آمِينَ .

يَدُلُّ لِذَلِكَ مَا فِي الْقُنْيَةِ رَامِزًا لِبَعْضِ كُتُبِ الْمَذْهَبِ : لَيْسَ لِلْعَامِّيِّ أَنْ يَتَحَوَّلَ مِنْ مَذْهَبٍ إلَى مَذْهَبٍ ، وَيَسْتَوِي فِيهِ الْحَنَفِيُّ وَالشَّافِعِيُّ ا هـ . وَسَيَأْتِي إنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى تَمَامُ ذَلِكَ فِي فَصْلِ الْقَبُولِ مِنْ الشَّهَادَاتِ ( قَوْلُهُ قَذَفَ بِالتَّعْرِيضِ ) كَأَنْ قَالَ أَنَا لَسْت بِزَانٍ يُعَزَّرُ ; لِأَنَّ الْحَدَّ سَقَطَ لِلشُّبْهَةِ ، وَقَدْ أَلْحَقَ الشَّيْنَ بِالْمُخَاطَبِ ; لِأَنَّ الْمَعْنَى بَلْ أَنْتَ زَانٍ فَيُعَزَّرُ ، وَظَاهِرُ التَّقْيِيدِ بِالْقَذْفِ أَنَّهُ لَوْ شَتَمَ بِالتَّعْرِيضِ لَا يُعَزَّرُ

The sectarian, bigots “Hanafees” have picked this up from bigoted Hanafees as outlined by Shah Abdul Aziz (RA). The reason the “Deobandi” Ulama call themselves Hanafees is because they are indeed Hanafees i.e. they are not laymen!

Bigoted, Sectarian, Hanafees!

www.central-mosque.com/index.php/Acts-of-Worship/hanafi-a...

Q: Is it permissible for a follower of the Hanafi Madhab to follow a Shaf’ae, Maliki or Hanbali (Imam)?

The Salah of a Hanafi is perfectly valid behind a Shaf’ae, Maliki or Hanbali. It is because principally there is no division between the four (4) Madhabs and this injunction (of praying behind each other) is clearly elucidated in books of Ahadeeth and Fiqh. However, in our times some Ulama from Transoxiana have spoken (against this following) due to their lack of knowledge and bigotry. Their talk is worthy of refutation and it is not acceptable AT ALL and it is their Ijtehaad. In Makkah Mukarramah (today) this method of following each other is established that these (followers) pray behind each other. If this was not the injunction then what would be the difference between followers of Madhabs of Ahlus-Sunnah and heretical sects? Ahlus-Sunnah and those of knowledge amongst the Fuqaha regard that Haqq (truth) is in all four (4) Madhabs and this principle should be studied in authentic books so contentment of the heart is reached (on the issue) [Fataw-e-Azizi].

The laymen can be Hanafees (in a roundabout manner) although the “Hanafi Madhab” clearly designates them as NOT or they are Jackasses who don’t understand Taqleed or they are bigots!

So laymen can choose to designate themselves as “Hanafees” by going against the Madhab or by being jackasses or bigots…Take your pick out of the 3 of whichever you like…

P.S: I am Hanafi in practise (if you wish to label) because I follow the opinion of the Hanafi Madhab by consulting Hanafi Ulama as this is the Taqleed I have chosen for myself but I don’t have a label because I don’t wish to go against my Madhab or be a Jackass or a bigot!

P.P.S: You can also be a Hanafi if you are studying Hanafi Fiqh and chosen a Madhab (to study) so that is your path

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#130 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 16:20

abu mohammed wrote:

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I was clear that you were sunni but I got confused with this Deobandi thing and label thing. Jazak Allah for your clarifications and enlightening me.

I am only using this word "Deoband" as a necessity. Maybe in the UK it is not a necessity. I have repeatedly said what I said here

Quote:

In previous times it was called something else, in current times it is called Deoband, in future it may be called something else. I am interested in "it" and not the label.

Now even if this statement anyone misunderstands me then it is his/her problem not mine.

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#131 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 16:47

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In the west it is different, because Muslims from different regions and different backgrounds all live in the same geographical area. They bring their different cultures and Islamic views with them as well.

Now some of those living in the UK and perhaps North America are still living in the situation you are living in in India. They live together in communities of the same ethnicity, attend their own Masjids, and their parents only speak their own language. So although they are in close proximity to Muslims of other backgrounds, they are living as though they are in their Muslim community from back home.

But nowadays Muslims in your situation ate still exposed to views from other cultures and backgrounds via the internet.

So I always question when some Muftis insist on sticking to some fatwa because this is what the akabireen said and we adhere to taqleed shaksi. This may have been well and good for the situation in India at that time, but it may not be applicable to us living in a multicultural and multi fiqh community.

I find this from Shah Waliullah r.a. interesting, although I don't understand the last part fully.

Quote:

According to this example , an analogy to the case of following a particular Imam must he drawn, for this may be obligatory or it may not be required. Thus If there is an ignorant person in India or Transoxiana where there is no Shafi , Maliki or Hanbali scholar , nor any books of these schools, it is necessary that he should practice taqlid of the school of Abu Hanifa. He is forbidden to depart from his school since In that instance he would be casting off the constraint of the sharia and remain useless and negligent.

This is in contrast to what would be the case if he were in Mecca and Medina. There it would be easy for him to be acquainted with all the legal schools, and it would not be sufficient for him to act on conjecture without verification , nor to take up the practice of the general public, nor to act on books which are not authoritative. All of this has been mentioned in the book an nahr al faiq sharh kanz al daqaiq.

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#132 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 22:07

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

In the UK we have certain areas that are either Pakistani Muslim strongholds or Indian (Gujarati) Muslim strongholds. I (British Indian (Gujarati) Muslim) naturally grew up in an Indian (Gujarati) Muslim area. I put Gujarati in brackets because for us Gujarati and Indian was the same as there were no other types of Indians around us. The local society which controls almost all the local masajid where I grew up was called and still called the Indian Muslim Welfare Society (IMWS) even though it is exclusively for Gujarati Muslims.

For us as we were growing up Deobandi meant Indian/Gujarati and Barelwi meant Pakistani. We thought ALL Pakistanis were Barelwi except maybe a few who were considered honorary Deobandis. We used to say of such Pakistanis that they are of our 'khiyal' as if we had some exclusive right over being Deobandi. Barelwi masajid were simply referred to as Pakistani masajid as we thought Pakistanis were exclusively Barelwi and there was no difference between the two (except for the handful who were considered our 'khiyal'.

The Pakistanis who were of our 'khiyal' prayed with us in the masjid, ate with us in the masjid, sent their children with us in the masjid, prayed janazah with us, buried their deceased with us, but were never allowed even to this day to be members of the masjid and of the Indian Muslim Welfare Society. This resulted in them paying higher fees for the maktab services and did not enjoy access to the free funeral service provided by the masjid which they had to pay for. There are probably other fees as well that the Indian (Gujarati) Muslims are exempt from by virtue of being members. I remember an elderly Pakistani brother (now deceased) who moved his whole household to our area as he fell in love with the mahole (environment). Mashallah his whole family were very pious, followed the sunnah, and had amazing akhlaak (manners). They were very regular attendees at the masjid. Eventually the brother became one of the muezzin's of the masjid. Even then he was not allowed to become a member of the masjid and faced a lot of angry opposition when some good people wanted to bend the rules for him.

This was all 20-25 years ago. Fast forward to now and the mindset has not changed much. I no longer live in that community. I was there a few years ago and met an Indian (Gujarati) brother who is on the sunnah, punctual with his salaat, sits with the ulama etc who I have not met for a long time. As we were talking I mentioned I was married and mentioned my wife is Pakistani. When I said that he stumbled over his words as if in shock then said 'chalo they are Muslims as well'. I'm not too sure what he meant by that and couldn't challenge him as it was not the right time or situation.

I don't know if its these labels that have created this situation, but the labels certainly help to maintain the status quo. If we did not have these labels then maybe the UK Muslims would have melded into one body of Muslims and not have divisions and distrust between us. We make up around 10% of the UK population. Its absolutely ridiculous that we want to weaken ourselves like this.

I have only addressed the Pakistani/Indian (Gujarati) division. There are divisions, within divisions, within divisions.

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#133 [Permalink] Posted on 17th January 2019 22:36

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take my advice and keep it that way. for the first time in my life i came across a salafi at work who been doing my head in about Allahs hands, and isitwah.had no idea this is what people spend their times debating. i mean who gives a .......? what difference does it make. why even go into these debates. alhamdulillah managed to speak to a few knowledable brothers who gave me a few talks and articles to read. after 2 weeks of discussin this with the guy at work he as stubborn as before and iv not benefitted at all from enteraining such discussions. its enough to be a sunni muslims and know your rabb is one and he has no partners and nothing is like him. anything more than that let the scholars and experts argue. even if Allah gave us ilhaam about his sifaat and finer details i dont see how that will increase duties towards him.

as for tasawuf, if you can find a sincere and honest wali Allah then there is nothing more greater, unfortunaltey many are just living of titles and not well trainined in the field themselves. never go for one simply because of their name. the true gems are usally the hidden ones

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#134 [Permalink] Posted on 18th January 2019 00:10

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I forgot to add in my post that marriage is allowed within the same "ethnicity".

So since others were given titles , bro xs11ax are you sunni surti vohra, or baruchi or mia bhai, or are these divisions restricted to the villages back home. Can someone explain these divisions for me and why are sunni surti vohra superior to all ( lol ) ?

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#135 [Permalink] Posted on 18th January 2019 00:44

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What you have mentioned is some type of caste system. I don't know too much about it as I am not in touch with my 'gujaratiness'. Not sure if this particular system is shared with hindus or not, but it's definitely found in Gujarati Muslims. I would fall under Sunni Vohra. Maybe there is a Shia Vohra as well. I'm not sure. I think Surti means we are from the area that is near to Surat city.

Again this category creates division and enmity in very absurd ways. I remember an incident from when I was a kid visiting India. Some elderly muslim guy came to visit my grandfather. He wasn't invited into the house and he was not expecting to be invited in. He sat outside on the veranda with my grandfather and left after a little while. Something must have prompted me to find the situation strange and I asked why he wasn't invited in. My grandfather laughed it off and said you don't understand. Later I found out he was probably of a lower caste and decorum dictates certain etiquettes so he never entered the house.

Vohra are considered higher caste. My father had my sister marry a really nice guy from the village who is of a lower caste. They have been married for about 14 years. Due to the marriage the elite castes of the village picked a fight with my father and now many of them no longer fraternise with my father when he goes there every year.

Along the route from the village to the airport there are places called musafir khana (travellers inn) that people stop at to rest along the way. The one we stop at only allow Vohra and will check your details before allowing you in.

That is absolutely everything I know about the Indian Gujarati caste system.

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Taqleed confusion...

Bigoted, Sectarian, Hanafees!