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Is it better for woman to go out to the Eid prayers or to stay at home?

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#46 [Permalink] Posted on 21st September 2020 22:23
ssaad wrote:
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But if women pray in jamat, especially when out then that is allowed and even preferred according to some. Even if they are home and a jamat is taking place they should join the jamat. See references to Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Muhammad. Some Masjids I know seem to conflate issues, and think it is forbidden/problematic for women to even pray in jamat even if in the Masjid for a valid reason.

Travelling women performing Ṣalāh behind Imam

Question

A family on a journey stop for Ṣalāh at a local Masjid which has segregated arrangements for women on the balcony of the prayer hall. Can the women perform Ṣalāh behind the local Imam of the Masjid?

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم
Answer It is permissible, and Masjids should make appropriate arrangements.

[Translation of Arabic reference]:
Imam Muhammad said in al Asl (١/٢٨٧): I said: What is your opinion on a traveller leading women in a journey? He said: I dislike for a man that he leads them in a house in which there is no mahram among them to him. I said: What if he leads them in a congregational masjid or in a house and with him is a woman who is mahram to him. He said: There is no problem with that. I said: What is your opinion on a travelling women leading the women? He said: I dislike that. I said: And if they do this? He said it is accepted from them and she stands in the middle of the row. (End of abridged quote)

And he (Imam Muhammad) said (١/١٦٤): I said: What is your opinion on a man leading women and there are no other men with them? He said: If it is a congregational masjid and salah is established in it and he is an Imam and he begins to pray and there are no men with him, and women enter the salah, then there is nothing wrong with this. But if he is in seclusion with them in a house or in a place other than a masjid then certainly I dislike that for him except if there is among them a mahram to them. (End quote) Allah knows best

Yusuf Shabbir 4 Jumādā al-Ūlā 1440 / 10 January 2019

Approved by: Mufti Shabbir Ahmed and Mufti Muhammad Tahir

islamicportal.co.uk/travelling-women-performing-salah-beh...

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#47 [Permalink] Posted on 21st September 2020 22:26
Facilities for women in Masjids:

I [Maulana Yusuf Shabbir] asked Mufti [Taqi Uthmani] Ṣāḥib regarding Masjids in the UK and whether they should have facilities for women, highlighting the reality that women are routinely leaving the homes for jobs, mastūrāt jamāʿat, local taʿlīm, Masjid programmes, ʿĀlimah classes, boarding madrasahs, shopping, events and for a variety of other reasons. Many a times they will be present in the Masjid hall due to a programme but will not join in the Ṣalāh. Mufti [Taqi Uthmani] Ṣāḥib explained that Masjids should definitely have facilities for women. It is a separate matter that they should be encouraged to perform Ṣalāh at home, however, there may be times when they are not at home. Women spending time out of the homes is a reality, and changes in the circumstances of people can impact upon the ruling. I mentioned to Mufti Ṣāḥib that in winter months many women make their Ṣalāh qaḍāʾ and that many female travellers do not have anywhere suitable to perform Ṣalāh. Moreover, if we do not provide segregated facilities for women on our terms, this will be imposed upon us in the future via equality and planning regulations and then we will have limited control on the safeguards.

(It should also be noted that Imam Abū Ḥanīfah (d. 150/767) and our earlier hanafi jurists did not advocate that Masjids should not have facilities for women, rather to the contrary, their positions clearly indicate that Masjids should have facilities for women, refer to al-Aṣl, 1:10, 164, 382, 446; and this answer: ).

islamicportal.co.uk/visit-to-malta-and-cyprus-with-shaykh...

Mufti Taqi Uthmani Ṣāḥib has said:

“If women happen to be in the Masjid for a religious programme for example, it is permissible for them to perform Ṣalāh behind the Imam.”

Source: "Pearls of Mufti Muhammad Taqi Usmani (2019)" by Maulana Yusuf Shabbir
islamicportal.co.uk/pearls-of-mufti-muhammad-taqi-usmani-...

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#48 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 01:25
Brother concerned, this is all repetitive information.

You bring it the same issue over and over again and the response will always be the same and in line with what the same Ulama say.

A few individual scholars who attend fairs with their women folk do not answer for the entire school of thought. At the same time, fairs and bazaars do not hold the same value as the mosque. It's not the same sanctity!

Its also been mentioned many times that the one of the biggest issues we have (for example, in England) is space.

Most Masjids are old and were not designed with two entrances etc etc. If a new masjid is being built, then they will take all this into consideration, as well as plans for allowing wheelchair access and so on.

I don't understand why this topic keeps coming to the surface and the same response is given all the time.
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#49 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 01:51
The responses/fatwas I posted in this topic were not around when we last had the lengthy discussion on this topic. In fact had they been around, I wouldn't have needed to discuss anything, because they are making the same points I was raising. And many fatwas and articles use the reasoning of women being everywhere but not allowed at the masjid. So my examples or incidents are not unique.

Quote:
At the same time, fairs and bazaars do not hold the same value as the mosque. It's not the same sanctity!


The sanctity of the Masjid has no real bearing on the discussion. Read what has been posted from the Ulama. You keep bringing that up and it is due to your misunderstanding of the topic. Do you see Mufti Taqi and Maulana Yusuf Shabbir mentioning the sancticity of the masjid vs malls above? Did Mufti Tariq Masood mention a special ruling for the masjid due to it's sancticity? No they haven't.

Quote:
Its also been mentioned many times that the one of the biggest issues we have (for example, in England) is space.


Is this a forum for only English people?

Quote:
Most Masjids are old and were not designed with two entrances etc etc. If a new masjid is being built, then they will take all this into consideration, as well as plans for allowing wheelchair access and so on.


Not always the case. Fatwas are still coming from high authorities saying Masjids can't build sisters' sections. Even if permission is given, speaker system isn't allowed to be put in place. So what you have stated is not factually correct for many masjids.

Quote:
I don't understand why this topic keeps coming to the surface and the same response is given all the time.


The topic will keep coming up until the issue is solved among Deobandi communities around the world. South Africa has the issue because fatwas are against it. India still has the issue, there was a recent court case on the issue and a reputable body issued a statement to the court saying ignore all fatwas barring women. And the problem still exist in the UK, even if you deny it and blame lack of space etc. The problem also exists in other Deobandi communites around the world, and not due to lack of space but due to fatwa/ignorance.

And yes I acknowledge the fatwa that is mentioned in later Hanafi fiqh texts and as quoted by the akabir of Deoband, but as seen above, that does not mean having no women's section at all. It also means that the fatwa should be applied across all aspects of one life, and what rationale would one have for only wanting to prevent other women from the masjid alone.

Bring me some proof/evidence that the sanctity of the Masjid has a major role to play in banning women from the masjid, and that women can go many other places but a special rule exists only for the masjid. Which fatwa or fiqh book have you read this in?

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#50 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 01:55
Concerned wrote:
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Quote:
Some Masjids I know seem to conflate issues, and think it is forbidden/problematic for women to even pray in jamat even if in the Masjid for a valid reason.


Now tell me, under this situation, if ladies offer Salah individually and separately; are they losing anything..

Here it is obligatory on men to join the congregation and they can't offer Salah individually.
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#51 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 01:58
Abu Muhammad read this explanation of the hanafi view. No focus on women not being allowed in the masjid because they will cause a violation of sancticity to take place!

"This brings us nicely on to the minority juristic view on the matter of women attending mosques; that of the Hanafi madhhab. Hanafis base their ruling on what the lady ‘A’ishah said: ‘If Allah’s Messenger ﷺ had seen what the women have introduced, he would have prevented them from the mosques, as the women of the Israelites were prevented.’19 For Hanafis, this pretty much tilts the balance against women attending prayer in mosques. In typical Hanafi legal reasoning, al-‘Ayni stated: ‘If ‘A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, had seen what the women of these times have introduced, of all sorts of innovations and evils, her rebuke would have been even stronger.’20 So due to the changing [worsening] of the times (taghayyur al-zaman), Hanafis consider it to be makruh tahrimi – “prohibitively detested” – for women to attend mosques for prayers.21

10. To be clear, this is not a case of Hanafis opposing clear-cut hadiths, or mischievously ‘superseding the texts’. Rather, it’s a case of them identifying the conditions (shurut) and legal causation (‘illah) for the lawfulness of women attending mosques for prayers, or for other religious activities; then asking: Are these conditions being fulfilled? Or is the legal causation (safety from fitnah) still present? And have times changed such that the ruling may need tweaking or reevaluating? The answer to the first question is a “No! Conditions aren’t usually fulfilled” The second is also a “No!”. And the third is a “Yes” – the ruling of them going to mosques now changes from an allowance to a practical forbiddance. This, then, has been the legal reasoning of the Hanafi school since its outset.

11. It won’t come as a surprise when I say that the majority of scholars have a response, or rebuttal, to the Hanafi view. Ibn Hajr al-‘Asqalāni wrote: ‘Some held ‘A’ishah’s prevention of women attending mosques as being absolute; but this is questionable. Since it doesn’t entail any change in the ruling, as she made it conditional on a non-existent condition; she said: “If he had seen … he would have prevented.” But he didn’t see, and nor did he prevent … Furthermore, these innovations were introduced by some women, not by all of them.’22 Ibn Qudamah stated: ‘The Sunnah of Allah’s Messenger ﷺ is more deserving to be followed; the statement of ‘A’ishah is confined only to those women who introduced the innovations.’23 Another persuasive reason why ‘A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, did not intend to alter or abrogate the default ruling of it being lawful for women to attend the mosque is that Imam Malik, and the other renowned jurists of Madinah before him, never understood her statement as a blanket, absolute prohibition. The point here is that the Madinan school was built on – amongst others – the juristic fatwas and legacy of the lady ‘A’ishah.

12. Fiqh isn’t the parroting or fossilising of classical juristic rulings formulated in Mamluk or Ottoman times … end of! It must be a living, vibrant enterprise culminating in practical and liveable law and guidance for our age. So as should be expected, some contemporary Hanafi scholars themselves are eager to revisit the issue, given that times have worsened even more. They, like jurists from other schools too, point out that the issue of taghayyur al-zaman can work both ways.24 On the one hand, they say, there’s the ever-diminishing reality of “safety from fitnah” at play between the genders (or within the genders too!). On the other hand, these Hanafi scholars argue, it appears that – on balance – there is a greater harm in not permitting women to go to the mosque in these times, for a variety of reasons. Thus they should not be prevented, provided they observe the basic decorum in terms of their attire and how they conduct themselves. One such reason is that in the prophetic era and long after, women’s primary role would be in and around the house, they wouldn’t really venture out except for necessities or a pressing need. This is unlike the complexities of the modern age, in which it’s the given norm for both men and women to be out and about in public for a whole host of reasons such as work, shopping, visiting others, or education. The reality is that they too need dedicated spaces to pray: mosques being open to them is part of such accessibility. Another reason is for women to be able to access scholarly talks and classes which often take place in mosques. To suppose that the internet or that YouTube can be an adequate substitute for gaining such knowledge is to be poorly informed about the adab required when seeking sacred knowledge, as well as the barakah or the psychology of being in the company of other [female] seekers. Female converts having a religious or social focal point is another vital reason why mosques need to be accessible to women. And then there’s the reality that mosques offer a far better sacred space where people can experience spiritual tranquility and connection than does a modern home in which some forms of haram or disapproved distractions from God have invariably taken root. Such are the arguments some Hanafi jurists use to insist that the classical madhhab view should be reviewed in favour of women’s attendance at mosques.

As to the very real issue of temptation, then if we’re to be perfectly honest, people have so many other avenues to indulge in such fitnah than while at their local mosque. Given the nature of social media, relatively-speaking, mosques are probably the least or last place today to be in that type of fitnah zone. Nevertheless, occasional healthy reminders about gender conduct, for both men and for women, wouldn’t go amiss. Or perhaps Allah will cause the environment of the mosque itself to be a gentle reminder of how a believer’s character must lend itself to modesty and respectability? For what better example could their be for wayward or weak souls than to see godliness and pious restraint in collective practice? Mosques might even be one of the rare times when some women put on some sense of hijab whatsoever. Of course, the larger the mosque complex, in that the more social, cultural and educational activities it holds under its roof for young people and the wider community, the more mindful everyone needs to be in terms of gender decorum"

by Shaykh Surkheel Abu Aaliyah
Full article:

thehumblei.com/2019/10/27/women-mosques-misogyny-to-misre...
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#52 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 02:38
ssaad wrote:
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Conflate issues means they have taken the ruling of later hanafis against women leaving the home specifically to go to Masjid, and interpreted it to mean Masjid's cant have women sections,if they do have a section women can't join the jamat, and women shouldn't pray in jamat even when a jamat is going on at other venues and outings.

In the time of the Prophet Salalahu alayhi wasalam and the khulalafa, women could have joined the jamat. Imam Abu Hanifa allowed women to join the jamat. Old women were allowed to join the jamat for centuries by Hanafis. Other Imams also allowed women to join the jamat.

Words of Maulana Yusuf Shabbir quoted above:

"(It should also be noted that Imam Abū Ḥanīfah (d. 150/767) and our earlier hanafi jurists did not advocate that Masjids should not have facilities for women, rather to the contrary, their positions clearly indicate that Masjids should have facilities for women, refer to al-Aṣl, 1:10, 164, 382, 446;"
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#53 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 03:11
abu mohammed wrote:
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These classical Ulama are saying the opposite to your "sanctity" argument. We have the opposite understanding. Let women go everywhere but masjid is "too sanctified for them"

Qadhi Iyad (d. 554 H mentions some conditions necessary for women to fulfill before they can go out for salah, such as not being adorned and not wearing perfume etc. And Qadhi Iyad then says: “If any of these occurs (i.e. conditions are not met) it is obligatory to prevent them (from going out) for fear of fitnah.” He further adds: “When they are prohibited from the Masjid, then to a greater extent they will be prohibited from attending other places.” (Mawahib al-Jalil )

Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani (d. 852 H) writes in Fath ul Bari: “If the things they (women) have innovated made it necessary to prevent them from going to the Masjids then to a greater extent they should be prevented from gong to other places such as markets


Hafiz Ibn Kathir (d. 774 H) mentions in his commentary of verse 33 of Surah al-Ahzab, “And remain in your homes”: “[This verse] means, stay in your houses and do not come out except for a purpose. One of the purposes mentioned in Shari`ah is prayer in the Masjid, so long as the conditions are fulfilled, as the Messenger of Allahصلى الله عليه وسلمsaid: (Do not prevent the female servants of Allah from the Masajid of Allah, but have them go out without wearing fragrance.) According to another report: (even though their houses are better for them.)”
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#54 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 07:33
Concerned wrote:
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Let me rewind my earlier replies:

1. For men, they must offer salah with congregation in masjid. A few scholars are of the opinion that men can't offer salah at home if there is no valid reason.
Women need not come to masjid or eidgah for salah.

2. Women who like to visit masjid also are happy with the concession of "they need not visit masjid for congregation salah". But whenever they feel like , they must be allowed to visit masjid. But summary of the hadith is "the best masjid for ladies is their home". Can't understand why they feel like leaving a best place and offer salah at a lower grade place.

3. Another demand is, for the purpose of educating the ladies, they must be allowed to visit masjid to listen to sermons. The solution for this is to arrange periodic, (if required daily) separate all women gathering for them and arrange lectures from an expert to discuss topics related to them.

So my view is; ladies visiting masjid, they won't achieve any better deeni benefits.

Note: In my place; Scholars are strongly recommending separate ladies prayer room in market places or on highways. Could be inside a shopping complex or annex building of a masjid or madrasah. Here ladies can offer salah individually.
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#55 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 08:31
Concerned wrote:
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Jzk and appreciate the effort you put in to the topic.

My point was to highlight that Mosques are not a place like the markets.


Can a woman in her menses enter the Market?
Can a woman in her menses enter the Masjid?

These two points alone prove the sanctity of the Masjid in our daily lives. I accept that these are not the reasons for restrictions on women. We should do what we can to accommodate the women for salah.
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#56 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 10:05
How do we deal with a situation:
When a hadeeth is quoted and demand comes for ladies to offer Salah in last rows of masjid (mixed with men), at the completion of salah, ladies must leave the masjid first, then men.

And they claim that when this happened in presence of Nabi SAS why shouldn't it be now.

And how to deal with this; regarding ladies dress;

Many ladies claim that in Quran o saheeh hadeeth, it is enough to cover the body, not necessarily with loose and thick clothing. And it is enough to cover the head with a 2 feet triangular cloth.
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#57 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 11:51
Concerned wrote:
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Quote:
But if women pray in jamat, especially when out then that is allowed and even preferred according to some. Even if they are home and a jamat is taking place they should join the jamat. See references to Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Muhammad. Some Masjids I know seem to conflate issues, and think it is forbidden/problematic for women to even pray in jamat even if in the Masjid for a valid reason.


1. Is there any problem if women pray alone in a premises where congregational prayer is being offered. We know men can't pray alone in this circumstances.

2. Men get 27 times more rewards than offering salah alone. I understand women won't get that 27 times reward, it is limited to men only.

3. You said; Even if they are home and a jamat is taking place they should join the jamat. How this ruling of "should join the jamat" was derived.
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#58 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 18:03
ssaad wrote:
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Mufti Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf Mangera

youtu.be/GQe86k9-jlk

“If there is a jamat going on with men, a full jamat going on, there is absolutely nothing wrong with (women) joining them in fact it is better to join that. Some of our people actually think it is better to pray alone even if there is a jamat. Which is really weird. The prayer at home is superior, but if there is a jamat of men along with women going on it is superior for you to join that jamat. in fact even at home if your husband is not praying at the Masjid, he has missed is prayer at the Masjid or whatever, it is actually superior to do jamah Unfortunately many of our people don’t know this and it is a big problem……It is better to pray with jamat when there is a full jamat taking place.” - Mufti Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf Mangera

I don't really trust this Mufti, but this is what he says:

Q: If the men of a household decide to pray a congregational prayer at home, will it be best for the women of the home to join them in their prayer or is it better for the women to pray separate prayers on their own?

A: Both are permissible. However, performing Salaah with jamaat is more rewarding.

And Allah Ta'ala (الله تعالى) knows best.

Answered by:

Mufti Zakaria Makada

Checked & Approved:

Mufti Ebrahim Salejee (Isipingo Beach)
muftionline.co.za/node/3980


Shafis recommend women to pray in congregation even if it means and all women congregation at home:

According to Shafi’i jurists, the group prayer for women is recommended, and an all female congregation is valid as well. It is best for women to pray in congregation at home than for her to pray in the mosque, which is preferable for men. All of the women do earn the reward of a group prayer if prayed at home. (Mughni al-Muhtaj, v.1 p. 351)
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#59 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 18:18
Quote:
When a hadeeth is quoted and demand comes for ladies to offer Salah in last rows of masjid (mixed with men), at the completion of salah, ladies must leave the masjid first, then men.


Most Masjids nowadays have partitioned ladies' sections with separate entrances. So this isn't an issue. If a Masjid wants to remove the partitions, then they should ensure they are following or acheiving what is found in the hadith/sunnah.


Quote:
Many ladies claim that in Quran o saheeh hadeeth, it is enough to cover the body, not necessarily with loose and thick clothing. And it is enough to cover the head with a 2 feet triangular cloth.


The issue of ladies' dress isn't specific to the Masjid. She has the same dress requirements whenever she goes out in public. So this needs to be addressed generally. Yes requirements can be enforced by the Masjid. However, nowadays in our partitioned ladies' sections, a lady can even remove her Hijab and stay in the her section without comitting any wrong. Once she is appropriately covering what should be covered among women. Before anyone freaks out about a woman in a masjid without hijab, then know that other madhabs only allow women to do itikaf in the masjid, and surely they wouldn't sleep with their head covered once in privacy in the masjid in itikaf.
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#60 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2020 18:50
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1. I fully agree with the fatwahs that if women are in the masjid and jamaath is going on they can Join.

2. I didn't read anything in your posts which clarifies what is penalty for not join the jamaath. I read in your post "it looks wierd". Also, if women don't join the jamaath, they are not losing 27 times reward like men.

3. So leave the choice to women. Women joining jamaath need not object ladies who didn't join the jamaath and vice versa.

4. I have quoted the fitna of liberal ladies taking over the masjid, just to prove gender equality. It is happening now in some countries. How do we tackle this, what is the preparation.
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