Forum Menu - Click/Swipe to open
 

Eid 2015: The Day Deobandees abandon Deoband

You have contributed 0.0% of this topic

Thread Tools
Appreciate
Topic Appreciation
To appreciate this topic, click 'Appreciate Topic' on the right.
Rank Image
Rajab's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
2,351
Brother
1,115
Rajab's avatar
#16 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 10:14
Your picture doesn't load kanzoorbhai
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
ibnulqayyim's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
35
Brother
93
ibnulqayyim's avatar
#17 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 18:35
Quote:
In America ChicagoHilal overode the decision of and humiliated Deobandees in America anf Canada, over what? 6 or so Witnesses and they chose to override consensus of so many Muftees and Ulama? Who gave them the right to do that and under what Authority?


Salam,

What is this consensus you speak of? Are six witnesses not enough?

What was more damaging was these laity in Toronto and California started messaging scholars of the UK and S. Africa (the "blessed" ma wara al-nahr of today's Hanafis). Why invite abroad scholars for an issue in N. America? And then equally these scholars are to be blamed for not having the guts to tell the laity to look to their local scholars because they find these issues like a nice bombay biryani dish.
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Offline
Unspecified
271
Brother
235
#18 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 19:38

Rajab wrote:
View original post

 

maaf.

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,939
Brother
353
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#19 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:04

ibnulqayyim wrote:
View original post

6-10 witnesses constitue Jamee-Ghafeer in Hanafi Madhab?

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
abuhajira's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
197
Brother
441
abuhajira's avatar
#20 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:05
Muadh_Khan wrote:
View original post


I am sitting on the other side of the table here.. The sightings in California in my humble opinion thus far were correct and valid. As Mufti Husain Saheb has mentioned elsewhere jam' ghafeer was not required for these sightings. These were at an elevated area. 6 shahadaat are more than sufficient. But there were two different sightings in two elevated places. Moreover ulama sighted and gave shar'i shahadah of the sighting.

report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Like x 1
back to top
Rank Image
abuhajira's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
197
Brother
441
abuhajira's avatar
#21 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:09
Muadh_Khan wrote:
View original post


Even if Jam' Ghafeer was required, It is the discretion of the Imam accepting the shahadaat as to what number gives the ghalaba dhan and convinces him. Ml. Thanvi mentions this in one of his fatawa very clearly. He has not put any tahdeed on the number. So it could be just 5 trusted people that gains the confidence as well.
report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,939
Brother
353
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#22 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:17

abuhajira wrote:
View original post

This I accept Mufti Saheb and hence the reason I have no problems with the Ulama declaring Ramadhan following the Guidance of Hazrat Thanwi (RA).

But the world has moved on and Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) disagrees with his father and considers Astronomical Sciences sufficient to negate an impossible testimony and YET we have Ulama in California who are still clinging to where science was in 1960s...

British Ulama like (Mufti) Yusuf Danke (HA) etc don't consider this number high number when it contradicts Astronomical data and 6-10 witnesses is not enough to throw away records between 1895-now

Allah (SWT) knows best.

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
abuhajira's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
197
Brother
441
abuhajira's avatar
#23 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:26
Muadh_Khan wrote:
View original post


The issue of of simple usool. What happens when the visibility curve says its not possible, but you have 10 people saying they have seen and are willing to take shar'i shahadah on it.

1 or 2 such anomalous reports can be put aside. But 10 reports! Especially for sighting which doesnt even require jam' ghafeer. Have you seen the location they sighted at? Its a mountain top. They dont need multiple reports there. The sighting will be mu'tabar.

Allamah Shami mentions this clearly. Now, if someone wishes to go and over-ride this simply because it was too late! I do not buy it. (ref to CC)
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,939
Brother
353
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#24 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:30

abuhajira wrote:
View original post

But Mufti Taqi Usmani (HA) says that "impossible" sighting has can be negated with Astronomical data. Ulama who back this California sighting are quoting Usool (which I agree they have the right to make an Ijtehad upon).

BUT these Ulama are questioning Science and validity of data what is their evidence for that?

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
abuhajira's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
197
Brother
441
abuhajira's avatar
#25 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:33
Moreover, I do not understand what you mean by saying "YET we have Ulama in California who are still clinging to where science was in 1960s..." Are you suggesting that these visibility curves are absolute? They are all subjective to different factors. We all know that. Every different visibility curve will have a slightly different criteria.

Yes, the curve suggests it was not possible to view, but it was seen. plain and simple. Now the question is not whether a person is clinging to old science or not. The question is how to tackle such a report shar'an. Can the shahadah be revoked or not. That is exactly what those local Muftiyan and Chicago Hilal people did.

HC openly said that they do not consider California in their parameters. Then said even if they did, because they had negative responses previous years they do not accept the reports. CC on the other hand just didnt bother to take any news beyond 12AM. It was too late. Not so scientific for people sitting in the Western part of Canada. : )
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
abuhajira's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
197
Brother
441
abuhajira's avatar
#26 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:37
Muadh_Khan wrote:
View original post


I have asked this question specifically during my darsi days from Mufti Ebrahim Saheb. My question was especially guided towards Saudi sightings. I clearly remember him explaning that if there are sightings contrary to astronomical data, then under normal circumstances they are to be negated. BUT if we start getting multiple reports such that now it becomes difficult to say that ALL these reports are corroborated lies, then the shahadah will be given precedence despite the negative possibility in astronomical data.

The issue with Saudi, he said, is that they continuously report such dubious results. Hence tainting their own credibility.
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,939
Brother
353
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#27 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:40

abuhajira wrote:
View original post

abuhajira wrote:
View original post

When Mufti Shafi Usmani (RA) wrote his treatise in 1960's we neither had a lot of data nor the updated danjon limits or the ability to crunch data in such hight numbers; now we do.

  1. Data from 1895-2001 suggests that this sighting by Naked eye was not possible
  2. Experienced Astronomers who pratice say this sighting was not possible
  3. 6-10 sighted it

Ulama accepted their sighting based on Usool from 1960's (fair enough) because these guys happened to be Sufi-Deobandees (fair enough). What is your evidence for conclusively proving that the moon was seen? 

  1. Declaring Eid
  2. Proving that Moon was seen

Are 2 seprate matters, Mufti Saheb. I am with you on 1 but respectively disagree with 2 (unless you can prove it).

Khudayri has decades of experience in Moon Sighting and he trains others and his experience clearly outweights our Ulama from California so I am Sorry the argument to follow Saudi still holds...

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,939
Brother
353
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#28 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:42
The Moon was not seen, Ulama accepted the testimony to be correct.

The issue is Dhanni and not Qat'e at all.
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
abuhajira's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
197
Brother
441
abuhajira's avatar
#29 [Permalink] Posted on 19th July 2015 23:45
Muadh_Khan wrote:
View original post


Shar'i shahadah is dhanni?

Also can you please share with me any and all material you have which suggest that naked-eye is an absolute requirement. Moreover that a visual aid (binoculars etc.) in sighting is not mu'tabar. I would really appreciate that
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Offline
Unspecified
295
Brother
154
#30 [Permalink] Posted on 20th July 2015 00:01
One thing i dont understand, there seems to be many comments on the error of Saudi moonsighting. What does one do there?

Secondly, to say 'the day deobandis leave deoband' is misleading because we dont agree on all things. For example some elders from deoband are strictly against masturat jamat whilst others arent. Some are agianst tech/media some arent. Some are hardcore political some arent and so on. Aqeedah and fiqh seems to be the place where alhamdulillah generally there is agreement. (I do realize that technically this does have fuqh involved).
I am not arguing for or against, just saying the title seems unfair.
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top