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Scholarly Consensus: Faj’r begins at 18 degrees

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abu mohammed, Arslan., Taalibah, True Life
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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 16:23
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Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Re: Our the longest Night is 971 minutes and shortest night is 442 minutes. This means that 1/7th on longest night is roughly 138 minutes and shortest is 63 minutes so Shaykh (Mufti) Shabbir Ahmed Saheb (HA) is saying that the 1/7th rule cannot be applied to UK throughout all seasons and all intervals.

Yes, which is why I feel that all those hawalajaat mentioning 1/7th to be incorrect actually ought to apply to regular zoning.

See, all that the fiqhi books mention is "Fayuqaddiroo.." i.e calculate.. Now how this calculation is made is Ijtihaad. This is how Allamah Shaami mentions it,

الدر المختار وحاشية ابن عابدين (رد المحتار) (1/ 362)
وحاصله أنا لا نسلم لزوم وجود السبب حقيقة بل يكفي تقديره كما في أيام الدجال. ويحتمل أن المراد بالتقدير المذكور هو ما قاله الشافعية من أنه يكون وقت العشاء في حقهم بقدر ما يغيب فيه الشفق في أقرب البلاد إليهم

If we read Ml. Thanvi's answer about his establishing this principle, he mentioned that the time between maghrib and ishaa is to be time between subh sadiq and sunrise. These are essentially the 2 parts of the 7 parts of the night. In regular zoning they may change.. but in abnormal zone where shafaq ahmer doesnt even set, or subh sadiq doesnt come, these become a precise stipulation of the night into different parts to asses the times of those salah which are mafqud because of the abnormality.

That is exactly what the hadeeth of dajaal pointed towards. Fatawa of many darul uloom simply say for 6 month night and day.. to divide 24 hours into 5 with respective salah differential.. etc. So while in our case the abnormality is not total, we apply this calculation to the abnormal part of the day and for the abnormal times of the year.

That makes good sense to me.
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 16:45
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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 17:18
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 20:14
I am Sorry but something has come up so will have to answer the query tomorrow...


Jzk
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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 20:52

abuhajira wrote:
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Mufti Zubair Butt just called me and pointed something out!

He said that the guy who wrote the Fatwa from Darul-uloom Karachi was his class mate and what he wrote for Aqrabul-Bilaad makes no sense so Mufti Zubair Butt told him that like a lot of Fuqaha (who have written) about the issue he has read it but never experienced it.

Told me to read Urdu, he hadn't read the English and I hadn't botehred reading the (original) Urdu Fatwa...So I read

  1. The original Urdu
  2. Then the English translation

:) :-P :-) :P

What on Earth are Darul-uloom Karachi saying in Urdu??? Weird way of explaining the Mas'ala. Mufti Zubair Butt said that I pointed out to them  that the Mas'ala is very simple:

  1. IF you don't 18 degrees
  2. Aqrabul-Bilaad is that you go to the nearest location (town etc) where 18 degrees occurs

Where did you (guys) get this 48.5 degree Usool? 9200 people have read the Fatwa and nobody is catching the Urdu Fatwa :P

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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 21:35
The 48.5 degree latitude is mention by a few people as the starting of the abnormal zone for cities where for even a day or more sun would not go below 18 degree. I have seen other saying it is 50 degree, then some saying it is 53 degree.

Wikipedia mentions

Quote:
Twilight between day and night[edit]
The most familiar occurrences of twilight are between dawn and sunrise and between sunset and dusk each day. These occur for observers at latitudes within 48.5 degrees of the Equator on all dates of the year, and also for most observers at higher latitudes on many dates. However, at latitudes closer than 9 degrees to either Pole, the Sun cannot rise above the horizon and go more than 18 degrees below it on the same day on any date, so this type of twilight cannot occur.

Twilight lasting from one day to the next[edit]
At latitudes greater than about 48.5 degrees North or South, on dates near the summer solstice, twilight can last from sunset to sunrise, since the Sun does not go more than 18 degrees below the horizon, so complete darkness does not occur even at midnight. These latitudes include many densely populated regions of the Earth, including the entire United Kingdom and other countries in northern Europe.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight
[/quote]

Khalid Shawkat mentions too :

[quote]Above 48.5° (e.g., Vancouver, Canada), the sun does not go 18° below horizon on the longest day of the year.

Above 51.5° (e.g., Cambridge, UK), the sun does not go 15° below horizon on the longest day of the year. On other days, Isha calculated at 15° will give Isha time 2.5 hours after Maghrib. This becomes hardship.

Above 54.5° (e.g., Copenhagen, Denmark), the sun does not go 12° below horizon on the longest day of the year. On other days, Isha calculated at 12° will give Isha time 3 hours after Maghrib. This is even more hardship, so it is impractical.
moonsighting.com/how-we.html
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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 21:36
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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 21:49
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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It is the same understanding of sun movement. We are tranfering Shafaq Ahmer/Abyad and Subh Sadiq/Kadhib into degrees. The reason of doing that is because fuqaha accept the concept of sun going below horizon to which ever degree. If we accept that much astronomical phenomenon, then we can also take guidance from the astronomical calculation of which places will be effected by the abnormal timings.

The DUK fatwa, as I understand is providing you the closest city that can be categorized as the normal zone. So for London, UK, The closest city at 48.5 degree where it would have normal timings ought to be Ciral, France.

June's timing by that token ought to be Ciral, FR

Atleast that is what I am understanding.. Although he mentions that the time for Subh Sadiq for 21 July is 2:36AM.. whereas islamicfinder (although I dont trust it) gives the time at 3:32AM

Maybe you can shed light on that.
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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 21:55
This is what Mufti Zubair Butt called me about...Where did they get this Usool to set Ciral to be the criteria?

Weird
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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 21:58
By token of seeking Aqrab al Bilaad.

You would have to keep the longitude same.. and keep going down on the latitude to the nearest such city which gets a normal 18 degree zoning. That happens to be Ciral. Although, this is crude.. but thats what is being done. One may have to adjust for the tilt of axis of the word to find the appropriate closes city.
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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 22:06
Why not Brighton within UK using the same principle for the next 2 days for London and then switching to Fecamp, France? or the first immediate spot where 18 degrees occurs? Where does this 48.5 rule come from?

That what I dont get?
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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2015 22:10
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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If the assessment is being made of "which city with normal zoning is closest for that particular day", then yes, you would do something like that.

However, the DUK is going by "which city with normal zoning throughout the year" and not necessarily for that particular day.

In the former, you would find Brighton at 50 degree. Which will give you normal time for a considerable days, but still will be categorized as a city in abnormal zone because for some days it goes into abnormal timings. DUK is looking for the closest city they does not get any abnormality throughout the year.
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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 27th March 2015 11:24

kanzoorbhai wrote:
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Part 2 has been amended to answer your specific question.

Sorry about the delay.

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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 30th March 2015 16:36
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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 30th March 2015 17:10
Endorsement of Shaykh (Mufti) Zuabir Dudha (HA) added...

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