Forum Menu - Click/Swipe to open
 

A question about Morality..

You have contributed 0.0% of this topic

Thread Tools
Appreciate
Topic Appreciation
To appreciate this topic, click 'Appreciate Topic' on the right.
Rank Image
Offline
Unspecified
90
Brother
57
#1 [Permalink] Posted on 16th June 2018 18:41
Aoa
Eid Mubarak.
I recently came across a fatwa approved by shaykh Faraz Rabbani regarding the topic "Are Good and Evil determined by Human intellect or by revelation?"
Quote:

The Ash’aris did not consider actions to have intrinsic moral value; rather, revelation and the Sacred Law form the basis of all morality. What Allah deems good is good, and what He deems evil is evil, irrespective of the judgment of human intellect. Because an action is commanded by Allah, it is good; and because it is prohibited by Allah, it is evil. The Sacred Law is the judge of what is right and wrong, while the intellect has no role in that judgment. It is merely a tool by which the Sacred Law can be understood. Morality cannot be ascertained until a messenger comes with revelation.


I completely understand and agree with this view. However i have one question and i can't seem to find it anywhere on the internet. How does Asharism address the Euthyphro dilemma "Is something morally good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is morally good?"

So basically, the argument tries to establish that either morality is defined by God’s commands or morality is external to His commands. If morality is based on God’s commands, what is good or evil is arbitrary. If this is the case, there is nothing we as humans should necessarily recognise as objectively evil. This would imply that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with, say, killing innocent children—just that God puts the ‘evil’ label on it arbitrarily. The other horn of the dilemma implies that some sort of a moral standard is completely outside and independent of God’s essence and nature, and even God is obligated to live by this standard.

How do we, asharis respond to this?

May Allah bless you all.







report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
abu mohammed's avatar
London
26,174
Brother
9,545
abu mohammed's avatar
#2 [Permalink] Posted on 16th June 2018 20:28
Quote:
We are upon the Aqeedah of the Salaf, any Maulana or Mufti who tells you otherwise has not read Aqeedah.

Which is not taught in any depth in Darul-ulooms anyways.

Syrian/Jordanian/Arab Muqallids are strictly Ashari/Maturidi to this day.

We respect them, love them but are not.

We follow and make Taqleed of Salaf
.
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#3 [Permalink] Posted on 16th June 2018 20:50

saa10245 wrote:
View original post

Let me begin by saying outright that I am not well versed in Ashari Aqeedah so I will not address the question from an Ashari Aqeedah perspective.

I am on the Aqeedah of the Salaf (NOT SALAFEES) like the majority of the Ulama of Deoband and this isn’t a problem for me at all.

This does not mean that I believe Asharees to be misguided or wrong.

I believe that Allah Ta’ala is the SUPREME:

  1. Creator (designer, planner, executor)
  2. Arbitrator (of good, evil and determinism)
  3. Controller (controls all affairs of the Creation).

The issue arises from Greek and Christian theology and I have been asked the question many times “Can God create a stone which God cannot lift?”

As a Muslim I believe in “Divine Voluntarism” i.e. Allah Ta’ala is absolutely free to ACT as he sees FIT, unbound by EXTRENAL facets of truths. In other words Good or Evil does not independently exist but comes into existence by his Divine Decree.

  • There is no such thing as Good.
  • There is no such thing as Evil.

It is GOOD or EVIL because Allah Ta’ala has decreed it as such.

Killing is not inherently GOOD or EVIL but it becomes either by the decree and determination of Allah Ta’ala.

Allah is supreme and he determines the matter.

Euthyphro dilemma Is contrary to (my) Aqeedah of Allah Ta’ala and it tries to create a dichotomy because it believes that there is such a thing as “independently determined” Good or Evil

VS

I believe in Good and Evil because Allah Ta’ala commands, decrees and determines it. Allah Ta'ala determines it to be such

report post quote code quick quote reply
+4 -0Like x 3Winner x 1
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#4 [Permalink] Posted on 16th June 2018 20:52

saa10245 wrote:
View original post

Let me begin by saying outright that I am not well versed in Ashari Aqeedah so I will not address the question from an Ashari Aqeedah perspective.

I am on the Aqeedah of the Salaf (NOT SALAFEES) like the majority of the Ulama of Deoband and this isn’t a problem for me at all.

This does not mean that I believe Asharees to be misguided or wrong.

I believe that Allah Ta’ala is the SUPREME:

  1. Creator (designer, planner, executor)
  2. Arbitrator (of good, evil and determinism)
  3. Controller (controls all affairs of the Creation).

The issue arises from Greek and Christian theology and I have been asked the question many times “Can God create a stone which God cannot lift?”

As a Muslim I believe in “Divine Voluntarism” i.e. Allah Ta’ala is absolutely free to ACT as he sees FIT, unbound by EXTRENAL facets of truths. In other words Good or Evil does not independently exist but comes into existence by his Divine Decree.

  • There is no such thing as Good.
  • There is no such thing as Evil.

It is GOOD or EVIL because Allah Ta’ala has decreed it as such.

Killing is not inherently GOOD or EVIL but it becomes either by the decree and determination of Allah Ta’ala.

Allah is supreme and he determines the matter.

Euthyphro dilemma Is contrary to (my) Aqeedah of Allah Ta’ala and it tries to create a dichotomy because it believes that there is such a thing as “independently determined” Good or Evil

VS

I believe in Good and Evil because Allah Ta’ala commands, decrees and determines it. Allah Ta'ala determines it to be such

This is an answer from Maulana who has studied Aqeedah in depth.

Suffering and the Problem of Evil

report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Like x 1
back to top
Rank Image
Offline
Unspecified
90
Brother
57
#5 [Permalink] Posted on 17th June 2018 02:08
Jazak Allah khair for your replies brothers.

@ Brother Muad Khan
Your reply has been extremely helpful. This is exactly the position of the Ashari school.
I just want to make one thing clear about what you said regarding Euthyphro dilemma. What i understand from your writing is that this (Euthyphro dilemma) is a false dichotomy, right?

One more thing, I hope you don't mind me asking about it. As far as my knowledge recalls, aren't the majority of ulema of deoband, Maturidi in Aqeedah?
Secondly isn't ashari and maturidi aqeedah considered to be Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jammah?
Please shed some light onto this.





report post quote code quick quote reply
+0 -0Old x 1
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#6 [Permalink] Posted on 17th June 2018 09:04

saa10245 wrote:
View original post

W-Salam,

  1. Euthyphro dilemma is contrary to (my) Aqeedah because Good or Evil is dependent upon Wahi and Allah Ta'ala
  2. Asharess/Maturidees are ABSOLUTELY Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jamaat
  3. Aqeedah of Ulama of Deobandi is neither classical Ashari nor classical Maturid but based on balance

darululoom-deoband.com/arabic/

علماء ديوبند ليسوا أشعرية أو ماتريدية وإنما هم يأخذون بالاعتدال

أما القضايا الكلامية فقد وقف منها أيضاً علماءُ ديوبند موقف الاعتدال والشمول هذا Ø› فهم سلكوا في المسائل المختلف فيها مسلكَ التوفيق ورفع الخلافات، مكان التجريح والطعن أو الرفض والترك. وهنا ينشأ السؤال أولاً : هل علماء ديوبند يتبعون الإمام أبا الحسن علي الأشعري [المتوفى 324هـ / 936Ù…] ((1)) أوالإمام محمداً أبا منصور الماتريدي [المتوفى 333هـ / 944Ù…] ((2)) ØŸ والجواب: أنهم في عُرْفِ علماء ديوبند أنفسهم يُعْرَفون بأنهم ما تريديون، ولكن جماعةً منهم ترى أنهم أشعريون. وذلك أولاً لأن مورثهم الأعلى العلمي هو الإمام الشاه ولي الله أحمد بن عبد الرحيم الدهلوي ((3)) الذي تشف أقواله عن أنه أشعري فهم يرون أنهم أشعريّون؛ وثانيا لأن علماء ديوبند يراعون المسائل الأشعرية في دروسهم ومحاضراتهم وكتاباتهم Ùˆ خطاباتهم Ø› إلا أن الأحسن – نظراً إلى موقفهم المعتدل المزيج من المذهبين – أن يُوْصَفُوْا بأنهم ما تريديون مائلون إلى الأشعرية Ø› فهم جامعون بين الأشعرية والماتريدة . بل إن دراسة أبحاثهم الجامعة تدلّ على أن الخلافات بين الأشعرية والماتريدية إنما تعود أخيراً خلافات صوريّة . فالمسائل المنصوص عليها لا يمكن أن يحدث فيها خلاف، إنها جميعاً متفق عليها، اللهم إلا الخلاف الذي يقع في عرضها وشرحها وتفسيرها ØŒ والذي لا يجوز أن يُسَمّى اختلافاً أساسياً؛ حيث يؤدي ذلك إلى الاتفاق على الغرض. وتبقى هناك قضايا اجتهادية معدودة يوجد بينها تضادّ في ظاهر الأمر ØŒ وهي اثنتا عشرة قضية فيما يقول المحقق الكبير العلامة ابن كما باشا((4))ØŒ وقد عدّدها في رسالة له موجزة، وقد يجوز أن تكون هناك قضايا أخرى عند بعض السادة غير هذه القضايا.

For "Deobandees":

I am aware of this line

ia801009.us.archive.org/31/items/AlMuhannadalaAlMufannadT...

And followers of the noble Imam Abu al-Hasan al-Ash‘ari and the noble Imam Abu Mansur al-Maturidi (Allah be pleased with them) in creed and the fundamentals;

report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Winner x 1
back to top
Rank Image
bint e aisha's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
2,515
Sister
1,681
bint e aisha's avatar
#7 [Permalink] Posted on 17th June 2018 12:05
Assalamu alaikum

If good and evil cannot be determined independently and actions are not intrinsically good or bad, then why does Allah say that He does not command immorality?

ان الله لا يأمر بالفحشاء

Since nothing is immoral except that which is prohibited by Allah..

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
bint e aisha's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
2,515
Sister
1,681
bint e aisha's avatar
#8 [Permalink] Posted on 17th June 2018 16:38
youtu.be/wRHBwxC8b8I

This video seems to point out a flaw in the divine command theory by discussing the euthyphro dilemma. Also read up on the link below and try to refute these points:

www.philosophyofreligion.info/christian-ethics/divine-com...

The arbitrariness problem is the problem that divine command theory appears to base morality on mere whims of God. If divine command theory is true, it seems, then God’s commands can neither be informed nor sanctioned by morality. How, though, can such morally arbitrary commands be the foundation of morality?

The emptiness problem is that on the divine command analysis of moral goodness, statements like “God is good” and “God’s commands are good” are rendered empty tautologies: “God acts in accordance with his commands” and “God’s commands are in accordance with his commands”.

The problem of abhorrent commands is that divine command theory appears to entail that if God were to command abhorrent acts—malicious deception, wanton cruelty, etc.—those acts would become morally good.

***

Personally I believe if you answer it this way you will get stuck with one of the horns. Hamza Tzortzis answers it in a different way and puts forward a third possibility.

www.hamzatzortzis.com/know-god-know-good-god-objective-mo...

Professor of Philosophy Shabbir Akhtar, in his book The Qur’an and the Secular Mind, explains:

“There is a third alternative: a morally stable God of the kind found in scripture, a supreme being who would not arbitrarily change his mind about the goodness of compassion and the evil of sexual misconduct. Such a God always commands good because his character and nature are good.”

What Professor Akhtar is saying is that there is indeed a moral standard, but unlike what the second horn of the dilemma suggests, it is not external to God. Rather, it follows necessarily from God’s nature. As previously discussed, Muslims, and theists in general, believe that God is necessarily and perfectly good. As such, His nature contains within it the perfect, non-arbitrary, moral standard. This means that an individual’s actions—for example, the killing of innocents—is not arbitrarily bad, because it follows from an objective, necessary, moral standard. On the other hand, it does not mean God is somehow subservient to this standard because it is contained in His essence. It defines His nature; it is not in any way external to Him.

An atheist’s natural response would be “You must know what good is to define God as good, and therefore you haven’t solved the problem”. The simple reply would be that God defines what good is. He is the only Being worthy of worship because He is the most perfect and moral Being. The Qur’an affirms these points:

“And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.”

“He is God, other than whom there is no deity, Knower of the unseen and the witnessed. He is the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. He is God, other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is God above whatever they associate with Him. He is God, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner; to Him belong the best names. Whatever is in the heavens and Earth is exalting Him. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.”

In summary, moral truths are ultimately derivatives of God’s will expressed via His commands, and His commands do not contradict His nature, which is perfectly good, wise, pure and perfect.
report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
Offline
Unspecified
90
Brother
57
#9 [Permalink] Posted on 17th June 2018 19:05
@ Muad Khan:
Thanks a lot for your replies. It clarifies everything.

@ Sister binte Ayesha:


Read the fatwa below from seekershub that tends to talk about the issue of morality and God.
Quote:
The Mu’tazili Position

The Mu’tazila, or strict rationalists, maintained that actions have an intrinsic moral value of either good or evil, which is necessary and independent of revelation. The Sacred Law comes with legal rulings that are secondary and that correspond to the intrinsic moral value of actions, which is primary. According to them, the intellect is the one that determines the moral value of actions, not Allah. Therefore, the intellect (aql) is capable of discerning the moral value of actions on its own, without any need for revelation.

The Sunni Position

There are two opinions among Sunni orthodoxy (Ahl al-Sunna) on this issue. Yet both opinions are in agreement that Allah alone is the One who assigns moral value to actions, not the intellect. This is a crucial point and the key difference between the Sunnis and the Mu’tazila. Due to this and other important differences, Sunni Orthodoxy considered the Mu’tazila innovators in creed, whose positions are not valid or followable.

The two Sunni opinions are as follows:

(1) The Ash’aris did not consider actions to have intrinsic moral value; rather, revelation and the Sacred Law form the basis of all morality. What Allah deems good is good, and what He deems evil is evil, irrespective of the judgment of human intellect. Because an action is commanded by Allah, it is good; and because it is prohibited by Allah, it is evil. The Sacred Law is the judge of what is right and wrong, while the intellect has no role in that judgment. It is merely a tool by which the Sacred Law can be understood. Morality cannot be ascertained until a messenger comes with revelation.

The basis of this position is that true moral value can only be known by appreciating the full context of any particular act. For example, severing a person’s arm would seem to be inherently evil. However, if a person had gangrene which would spread to destroy the entire body, then a doctor’s severing of his arm would be seen as a good and beneficial act. Full context of any given act is known only to Allah; the intellect does not have access to the entire context, and hence cannot ascertain the moral value of acts. Only revelation affirms morality.

(2) The Maturidis adopted a middle position between the two positions described above. Like the Ash’aris, they too considered assignment of moral value as belonging to Allah rather than the intellect. Allah alone is the Hakim (Authoritative Judge). Yet the intellect is not merely a tool to understand the Sacred Law. It can perceive the moral value of actions, and with some actions can do so independent of the Sacred Law. However, this would occur only by Allah creating that knowledge in the servant’s intellect.

[/quote]

Regarding Euthypro dilemma

There are two horns:

(1)the argument tries to establish that either God wills what is good based on such already being good, or (2) God arbitrarily determines what is good (so, had he willed not worshiping Him could have been “good”)

In an attempt to answer scholars like Hamza Tzortis say as you have quoted him from his website:
Quote:
This intuitively sounds like a valid contention. However, a little reflection exposes it as a false dilemma. The reason is due to a third possibility: God is good. Professor of Philosophy Shabbir Akhtar, in his book The Qur’an and the Secular Mind, explains:

“There is a third alternative: a morally stable God of the kind found in scripture, a supreme being who would not arbitrarily change his mind about the goodness of compassion and the evil of sexual misconduct. Such a God always commands good because his character and nature are good.”


But this raises further questions from the atheists: [quote]“Is God’s nature good because God chooses it, or is his nature good due to some outside factor?” This is due to the fact that the Euthyphro dilemma assumes that goodness is a property, and if we say that God has a property that allows us to derive other properties, we open ourselves up to the Third Man argument of Plato’s Parmenides.



Refuting this from an ashari stand point:

"You cannot say that good is based on His self, because that would imply specification of what is good without a specifier, because all possible events, in the mind’s eye, are intrinsically possible, and cannot become impossible without a non-intrinsic predominator/specification."
In other words saying "Good is based on His self" necessitates the logical question as asked by atheists " Is His nature good due to some outside factor? "

Apparantly it seems that the ashari or maturidi position seems to adopt one horn of the euthypro dilemma but this is a wrong assumption.

The answers is:
The Euthypro dilemma is loaded with false dichotomy.
The only valid solution is to say "Allaah’s choice of what He creates of events, and specifies of rules for us, is absolute. In other words, He has no obligations. Allah is not morally judged because he has no judge!

report post quote code quick quote reply
No post ratings
back to top
Rank Image
bint e aisha's avatar
Offline
Unspecified
2,515
Sister
1,681
bint e aisha's avatar
#10 [Permalink] Posted on 17th June 2018 20:16
saa10245 wrote:
View original post

Quote:
The Maturidis adopted a middle position between the two positions described above. Like the Ash’aris, they too considered assignment of moral value as belonging to Allah rather than the intellect. Allah alone is the Hakim (Authoritative Judge). Yet the intellect is not merely a tool to understand the Sacred Law. It can perceive the moral value of actions, and with some actions can do so independent of the Sacred Law. However, this would occur only by Allah creating that knowledge in the servant’s intellect.


Ok I guess Maturidi position is good enough. So we can say that Allah ta'ala determined what is good and what is bad and then He created human beings upon that pure and original state i.e. fitrah which also helps us to distinguish moral good from evil. As was mentioned in a hadith:

“Righteousness is good character, while sin is that which agitates and disturbs your soul and you would hate others to uncover”
report post quote code quick quote reply
+1 -0Like x 1
back to top
Rank Image
Muadh_Khan's avatar
Offline
UK
11,537
Brother
112
Muadh_Khan's avatar
#11 [Permalink] Posted on 19th June 2018 10:01

saa10245 wrote:
View original post


Exactly right.

We don't adopt either sides of the Euthyphro dilemma argument as we believe that the premise does not apply to Allah Ta'ala.

Allah Ta'ala is the Judge and cannot be judged.

The answer to the Sister is also common sense related.

  1. Allah Ta'ala commands us to avoid Fahishah
  2. Allah Ta'ala then defines Fahishah and it is not left to us to define Fahishah

So we determine and then subsequently avoid Fahishah (BOTH) based on the command of Allah Ta'ala. She is pasting half a verse and speculating but when the subject is studied in its entirety we avoid Fahishah (as determined by Allah Ta'ala) and not based on cultural norms and practises.

There maybe times when a practise which is Fahishah (according to Allah Ta'ala) may beacceptable in a cultural setting OR vice-versa but revert back to what AllahTa'ala has determined to be Fahisha

She is asking a good question and inadvertently proving the Aqeedah of Muslims that we don’t adopt either wing of Euthyphro dilemma BUT have a different Aqeedah…in other words we don’tfall into the trap which Christian theology has fallen into it.

The Ahadeeth about consulting the heart etc are authentic but ultimately the determination of Good vs Evil (or sin) is upon what Qur'aan and Sunnah command us because the Qur'aan tells us:

Fighting is enjoined upon you, while it is hard on you. It could be that you dislike something, when it is good for you; and it could be that you like something when it is bad for you. Allah knows, and you do not know. [2:216]

So it is entirely possible for the heart to like something which is bad (for us) or dislike something (which is good for us)...

All Praise be to Allah Ta’ala.
report post quote code quick quote reply
+2 -0Like x 2
back to top