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are other holy books speech of Allah?

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 9th November 2014 22:41
Assalamualaikum, mawlana tariq jamil said that quran is only kalamullah but other are only asmani kitaab. is it true? What is the evidence of such claim
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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 9th November 2014 23:38
Shaykh Saalih al-Munaajid also writes:
Quote:
The Muslims are all obliged to believe in the Gospel (Injil) that Allah revealed to His Prophet Jesus the Messiah (peace be upon him). The one who denies this is a kafir (disbeliever) according to scholarly consensus. 

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“And in their footsteps, We sent ‘Isa, son of Maryam, confirming the Tawrat that had come before him, and We gave him the Injil, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Tawrat that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqoon (the pious).” [5:46] 

Our belief in the Gospel dictates that we should also believe that it exists and that it was revealed completely, and we believe that everything that he brought from Allah was true. 

But there is nothing in Islam to tell us whether this Gospel was written and compiled at the time of ‘Isa (peace be upon him) or who wrote it, or who preserved it and disseminated it, or whether the Messiah taught it to the people orally or whether the disciples transmitted it and who believed in it, or whether some of it was written down and some was not. These are questions that we cannot answer for certain nowadays, rather some researchers deny that there was even a true Gospel that was compiled in the form of a book; rather it was just words that were transmitted. 

The great scholar al-Tahir ibn ‘Ashoor says in al-Tahreer wa’l-Tanweer, commenting on the tafsir of Surat Al ‘Imran: 

With regard to the Gospel, this is the name of the revelation that was sent to ‘Isa (peace be upon him) and was compiled by his companions. End quote. 

Shaykh Ahmad Deedat (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

We believe sincerely that everything that ‘Isa (peace be upon him) said was revelation from Allah, and that it was the Gospel and glad tidings for the Children of Israel. But throughout his life, ‘Isa did not write a single word, and he did not order anyone to write anything. Hal al-Kitab al-Muqaddas Kalimat Allah (Is the Bible God’s Word?).

But it seems that the Messiah (peace be upon him) knew how to read and write. This may be understood from the words of Allah (interpretation of the meaning): 

“And He (Allah) will teach him [‘Isa] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom), (and) the Tawrat and the Injil.” [Al ‘Imran 3:48] 

Ibn Kathir (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

It seems that what is meant by Book here is writing. Tafsir al-Quran il-‘Azeem. 

But we do not have any evidence that the revelation was written down at the time of ‘Isa (peace be upon him). The fact that the Gospel is called “a Book” in the Holy Quran does not indicate that it was written down on pages at the time it was revealed. The fact that it is called a Book only refers to that which is with Allah in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz (the Preserved Tablet), or that it was something that could be written. This also applies to the Holy Quran, as Allah calls it a Book. Rather it was transmitted verbally as well as being written down randomly on skins and parchments. In fact it was not a compiled Book until the time of Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allah be pleased with him). Indeed, Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“And even if We had sent down unto you (O Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)) a message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said: ‘This is nothing but obvious magic!’” [6:7] 

al-Tahir ibn ‘Ashoor said in his commentary on Surat Maryam:: 30: 

The Scripture refers to the law which is usually written lest it be subject to change. The word Scripture is applied to the Law of ‘Isa (peace be upon him) just as it is applied to the Quran. Al-Tahreer wa’l-Tanweer. 

Similarly the Christians do not believe that there is a book that was written by the Messiah or one of his disciples during his lifetime that was lost after that. 

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: 

As for the Gospel that is in their hands, they acknowledge that it was not written by the Messiah (peace be upon him), nor did he dictate it to someone else to write it down. Rather they wrote it after the Messiah was taken up (into heaven). Al-Jawab al-Saheeh.

There is a clear difference between the revelation that was sent down to Musa (peace be upon him) and the revelation that was sent down to ‘Isa (peace be upon him). In the Quran there is an indication that the former was written down, as Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“And We wrote for him on the Tablets the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation for all things (and said): Hold unto these with firmness, and enjoin your people to take the better therein. I shall show you the home of Al-Fasiqoon (the rebellious, disobedient to Allah).” [7:145] 

Although it seems from the words of some Muslim scholars that the true Gospel was compiled and written at the time of the Messiah (peace be upon him). You can find this view in the words of Ibn Hazm in al-Fisal and Ibn Taymiyah in al-Jawab al-Saheeh. 

Similarly it says that the word Gospel (Injil) is applied to that which Allah revealed to the Messiah, as it says in the Gospel of Mark 8:35: “… whoever loses his life for me and for the Gospel will save it”.  

As for the Gospels that are extant nowadays, they are not the true Gospel, but no one can deny that they contain a great deal of the Gospel that Allah revealed to the Messiah (peace be upon him). 

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:  

These four books that they call the Gospel, or call each of them a Gospel, were written by them after the Messiah was taken up into heaven, but they do not say in them that they are the word of God, or that the Messiah conveyed them from God. Rather they transmitted in them some of the words of the Messiah, and some of his actions and miracles. They said that they did not narrate from him everything that they heard and saw from him. So they are more akin to what was narrated by the scholars of hadeeth (prophetic narrations), biography and maghaazi (battle) reports from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) of his words and deeds that are not Quran. So the Gospels that they have in their hands are more like the books of seerah (biographies) and hadeeth (prophetic narrations), or like these books, even if most of them are true. Al-Jawab al-Saheeh.

And Allah knows best.
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 9th November 2014 23:59
I read this already, but it doesnt mention anything quran being only kalam of Allah but others were not.
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 04:10
daywalker wrote:
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Brother regarding such knowledge, kindly ponder on the advice given in the fatwa linked: askimam.org/public/question_detail/27862

From an academic point of view, we appreciate your zeal for knowledge and make du'ā Allāh preserve your zeal and enthusiasm. However, since this matter neither relates directly to our fundamental beliefs, nor to any obligatory practical matter as a Muslim, we advise that you read the discussion, understand it and carry on without going into a technical analysis of the matter. Allāmah Ibn 'Ābidīn as-Shāmī Rahimahullāh writes:

'It is inappropriate for one to question regarding issues for which there is no real need, such as the manner of the descent of Jibreel ('Alayhis Salaam) ... the location of Jannah and Jahannum, ... etc.'

May Allah azza wa jal, make me and all Muslims practically implement our knowledge, especially in doing a'amaal. Ameen
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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 12:33
Assalamualaikum , brother it is indeed an importent topic because we have also known the holy books are speech of Allah but maulana tariq jamil is saying only quran is but others not. There must be something written in books otherwise he might not have mention this.
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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 13:24
Can we just end it with the assumption that they may have possibly been the speech of Allah, but what we have today is nothing of the kind as they have been altered!
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 15:15
Assalamualaikum, its not about what we have current days present. its about belief in the divine books. salafis accuse MTJ for propagating false aqeedah. i also heard it other ways. so wanna get proper clearification are salafis right that MTJ propagated the false aqeedah?
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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 15:39
daywalker wrote:
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What I quoted to you, above, IS from the Salafi.

Unfortunately for the Salafi, they are against everyone, even thier own. They breakaway from one faction and start another one, labelling the others with dodgy aqeedah and so on. This will never stop.

As for Maulana Tariq Jameel, well he is from the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaa'ah. IF you have heard or seen anything in contrary with your own eyes and ears, then that's different, otherwise its a never ending circle with the Salafi.
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 15:46
Akhi what you have post from sh munajjid, didnt mention any relevant information regqrdin my queries i.e. are other kibas speech of Allah or not like the quran.

Salafis arent my problem , their objection is valid according to my knowledge so if anyone knows more info regarding this topic would be good.
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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 15:49
I highlighted in BOLD what the Salafi say and this is also what our understanding is. WE DON'T KNOW!

Please see brother ibn Ismail's post
ibn Ismail wrote:
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This should conclude the matter inshaAllah.
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 16:04
Akhi i didnt ask in which format early books were present,did anyone write it down or not. the question is simple, are early kitabs also speech of Allah or not. nobody will doubt this,infact all of us will say that holy kitabs are speech of Allah. its MTJ who brought this twist of quran being only the speech of Allah to praise quran . he must have got some info about this difference between quran and other books. so am looking only for the info which MTJ had. its not asking question from own mind. am looking only the references of what being said. i am sure MTJ will not entertain the majma with the location of paradise or where adam did land.
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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 16:06
Wa 'alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

In the Majlis' publication, KitabulImaan, It is written that

The Qur'aan is the uncreated Kalaam (speech ) of Allah . The Qur'aan being the uncreated Word refers to that Speech of Allah which is His Attribute and is refered to as Kalaamun Nasafi. The Qur'aan, which is ghair makhlooq (uncreated) is not composed of sound, and letters. One who asserts that the Qur'aan (i.e. Kalaamun Nasafi or the Qur'aan in the Speech of Allah ) is makhlooq (created) is a kaafir.
(PDF pg.17)
A number of books have been revealed by Allah to his Ambiyaa (AS). All Books revealed to the various Ambiyaa (AS) are the Kalaam (Speech) of Allah. It is incumbent to believe in the truth of all Books and Manuscripts revealed to the various Ambiyaa (AS). Rejection of any such book is kufr and renders one beyond the pale of Islaam . By rejection is meant: to refute the fact that these Books were true revelations from Allah.

(PDF pg 18)

[Due to difficulty in reproducing the text on mobile, Ta'ala, wrriten after Allah got omitted, because it was in an image form]









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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 16:10
Quote:
are early kitabs also speech of Allah or not[/quote]
We can only definitely say that the Quran is the Speech of Allah, the other books possibly were too, Allahu alum. who knows, maybe they were something like Hadith Qudsi! But again, this is not a matter we need to get into.

[quote]so am looking only for the info which MTJ had.

Better to ask him then.
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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 16:57
Quote:
its about belief in the divine books.


The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

Also the 6 fundamentals of belief:
1. To believe in Allah,
2. To believe in His angels,
3. To believe in His books,
4. To believe in His prophets,
5. To believe the Day of Judgment (life after death),
6. To believe in destiny (qadar), that the good and the evil are from Allah.

We do believe in the books, but the original ones and not what we have have today as they have been altered, with the exception of the Quran.

So yes, to disbelieve in the books is kufr! No one is denying that.

Was it the "Speech of Allah"? Allahu Alum.

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 10th November 2014 17:23
السلام عليكم

This statement of maulana tariq jameel is very very dangerous.

The other books revealed are dall on kalam nafsi. This is basic aqeedah from books such as jawhara. I dont understand how such a basic error was made.

Another thing the issue of kalam of Allah is a very delicate discussion, especially with regards to some of the hanabila thus its not advisable for laymen to discuss.
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