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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 19th September 2014 05:57

..... continued

Also in 1977 India had witnessed a movement similar to inquilab named "Total revolution". The then second mahatma, Jaya Prakash Narayan had lead that movement. He was honest, he even said "we shall serve the people like a khaleefah", etc., and he rejected the PM or president post. But when his party, Janata Pary tasted power, there was total chaos in the country. Development stopped, governance was missing etc.

So it requires something more than honesty to run a complex country with complex culture.

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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 19th September 2014 08:08

Interesting views on this thread. Let us pray something good happens inshallah. If Nawaz sharif's government is legitimate then this makes Musharaf's government legitimate and we should have listened to him when he wanted to close the madrasahs down? This line of thinking is what leads to what happened and has happened in places like central asia. So first we start by accepting the rulers as legitimate rulers. Then the rulers can do what they want and slowly or overnight compeltely shut down all religious institutes, close masjids, appoint their own imams, teach their diluted version of deen or something else and put an end to all and any grass roots efforts. I agreee with you maulana to some extent if the ruler was actually a muslim but we come to the issue are some of the leaders of the muslim world actually muslim? How about Ben Ali who passed legislation banning the hijab? I agree with you it is a complex topic and needs a good amount of research. The problem is the current syrian regime says the same thing and the government scholars including shaykh boti rh were saying the same thing. Also there are double standards. If what you say is correct the Taliban should lay down their weapons and accept the government of afghanistan. Would you agree with the reasoning? My problem is people use it selectivly. Say when Taliban were in power no-one would say it is bagawat or when ash-shabab were in power or even ISIS. This is not an attack on maulana abu bilal as he is a good friend of mine and I take his views very seriously.

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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 19th September 2014 09:17

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1. A government being legitimate is one thing, and if it issues an order which is against the sharia is another thing. As the hadeeth says La Ta'ata Lemakhlooqin Fe Masiyatil Khaliq (In the disobedience of Allah, the obedience of people can not take place). So that is another discussion. And i have only responded to the questions about Imran Khan in this thread. Where and when have i said that each and every action done by the Government of Pakistan is "valid"? This is a detailed topic, and Alhamdolillah, this sinner has thoroughly read the minute details, and questions like these have been answered in detail by the Ulema. Do you not see that even a slight action done by the rulers against Islam (like closing madressahs, raid on Lal Masjid, etc) is refuted heavily by the Deobandi Ulema? You are mixing up two totally different things.

2. Bringing Afghanistan into the discussion is not correct. Taliban did Sharai jihad against the soviets, and then came into power. Pakistan is a totally different thing. And if one has "power" and "resources" to topple a Fasiq government, without shedding any blood, then such an action is "valid" and "jaiz". Imam Abu Haneefa (RA) has also said this about khurooj.

3. The topic on hand is the actions of Imran Khan, and that is it! From where are you bringing IS and Taliban? I was one of the most vocal persons, when Lal Masjid happened, and ofcourse such an action by Musharraf was not right.

4. The people on this thread should read Imam Razi (RA), Imam Qurtubi (RA) and Qazi Sanaullah Panipatti (RA)'s tafseer of the ayah "Oh believers, obey Allah and Rasool (SAW) and your rulers".

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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 19th September 2014 10:06

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Dear respected maulana,

Jazakallah khairan for your response. We shall have a discussion sometime over the phone about this inshallah.
1. You are saying that people can rebel against anti-Islamic policies? Am I right? Is this what Imran khan and qadri saab are not claiming? In effect they are saying this though we may not agree.
2. The reason why I am bringing Talib in this was that did they not initially topple a regime which was in place after the Russians? Are they currently not trying to topple the Karzai or other American backed regime. Were both regimes not nominally ‘muslim’. I would think that Karzai seems to be slightly more religious than the Pakistani leaders. So does this not make the current talibs baaghis.
3. The reason I bring up IS and Talib is that we have the likes of Abdullah bin bayyah and their likes who use exactly the same reasoning you mentioned. They say you have to listen to the leaders. So we say ok we accept this but why were you not saying this when Taliban, Ash-shabab, IS, An-Nusra etc ruled over the land? I am not accusing you of double standards as I consider you as a man of taqwa etc but surely this question has to be asked?
4. You mean those in authority not rulers is the translation? Yes, we should accept the tafsir and what it says.

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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 19th September 2014 10:22

Abu_Bilal wrote:

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Hazrat Mufti Saheb (HA),

Darul-uloom Karachi are staunch supporters of Muslim league and they agree with your Fatwa against Imran Khan, anyone surprised?

The entire legitimacy of Saudi Government since 1926 is based on your argument about people rebelling against legitimate Government.

All of the names quoted above are refuted by the example of Sayyidina Hussain (RA) and actions of Imam Abu Haneefa (RA) both aided and abatted in a rebellion against a "Government" so labelling Imran Khan can be argued for and against (without much problems). What cannot be argued against is violations of Islamic Shariah by him and his party (before and during this Dhrana).

At the end of the day you need to come to terms with the fact that this is "your political Ijtehaad" and not an issue of Aqeedah which the entire Ummah needs to fall behind and follow.

I am not saying your sincerity of Ikhlaas is being questioned anywhere just questioning your political judgement (not your Islam, not your Emaan, not your Manhaj, not your teachers etc).

Jazakallahu Khayarn

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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 19th September 2014 16:21

Very strange views being expressed here... So if a leader exploits the democratic process uses vote rigging, bribery, intimidation and mafia politics to come to power then according to ulemah his government is legitimate. And to try to over throw his government is Bhagawat?

Perhaps the ulemah need to do research on what democracy is and how a democratic system works. In the west Husband votes for his party, the wife votes for her own party children vote for their own party. No bribery, no threats, and no intimidation and vote rigging. And you do not have politicians declaring I spent 1 crore to get elected so I will earn (rob) atleast 3 crore from the public coffers. And in the west you dont have polticians robbing funds intended for earthquake and flood victims the poor and oppressed like their is no tomorrow.

If the political process itself is illegitimate how can the rule of one who comes to power be considered legitimate. These are the sort of strange fatwas and research that one expects from Al Azhar these days, not the ulemah of pakistan.

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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 19th September 2014 19:02

Participating in the democratic system is always a big sin. Whoever does this is in misguidance and it does not matter who this might be. Wishing the democratic system to stay i.e to have a democratic ideology is always kufr. In most of the cases those who participate in democracy are kuffar. But there could also be muslims who participate in democracy but they are in sin.

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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 19th September 2014 19:52

HSATB wrote:

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Let's keep the discussion on Pakistan only.

See here for what we say about voting in a democracy

Don't get into takfeer again, we saw what happened last time the rules were violated, lol, I wonder what that feels like.

I think one day I'll get banned for 24 hours just to see how it feels ;-)

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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 20th September 2014 07:14

This post has been reported. It could be due to breaking rules or something as simple as bad use of bbcodes which breaks the page format. We will attend to this soon.

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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 20th September 2014 07:17

Please only post relevant issues to the current topic, otherwise please start a new topic. Jazakumullah

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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 20th September 2014 07:39

HSATB wrote:

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Indian subcontinent itself has 1/3 of the world population and they participate in Democratic system. And both muslims and Islam are growing.

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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 20th September 2014 13:02

Why Pakistan fails in sports when India visits Pakistan.

We have observed that when Pakistani team visit India for cricket series, they beat Indian and win most of the matches and take the series. But when the same Indian team visits Pakistan, the same Pakistani team gets beaten red and blue.

The reason!

When Pakistanis visit India, it is left to the playing Team to perform and no one around to suggest them.

But when India visits, the whole country falls on the playing eleven, 100 million suggestions, even the rickshaw puller or street hawker will say,

"man bowl bouncers",
"man bowl yorkers",
"hit sixes".
"Watan ki izzat ka sawal hai".
"watan ka waqar girnay na dena".

All old cricketers are there to suggest. Political and Religious leaders have suggestion, etc.

Poor players get over burdened, get stressed; sports requires total concentration; so, the final result, they miserably fail.....

And this exactly repeats with every Indian team visit to Pakistan.

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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 21st September 2014 14:51

ahamed_sharif wrote:

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Bhai, if this is somehow in context to the topic under discussion, then please tell me. lol I do not get the hint...

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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 21st September 2014 15:20

zina tsunami retreats to Karachi.

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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2014 05:52

I was reading on bbcurdu about a speech delivered by Imran Khan. He discussed about his priorities to rebuild pakistan. I honestly say, His intentions are appreciable and when implemented it will be golden era.

But;

Can he take a undemocratic, unconstitutional and non-judicial route to grab power. Just because he has a mob behind him, (which also is very small compare to the total population) can he dictate some one who is democratically elected to make space for him.

When mob delivers justice, then end of civilization.

So first get the requisite numbers, or let judiciary decide about the crimes of a person then only think of grabbing power.

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