Mujtahed Mutlaaq and Mujtahed fil Mazhaab

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 11:08

Assalam ww

I would like to discuss and understand the clear difference between Mujtahid e Mutleq and Mujtahid fil Mazhab. I have read the brief theories written about 07 grades of Ijtihad. But I will appreciate if someone can give me few specific examples of what Usool , Imam Abu Hanifa ra has made in his capacity of Mujtahid e Mutlaq, which can not be challenged, even by Imam Muhammad and Imam Abu Yusuf in their capacities of Mujtahid fil Mazhab. And i assume that those Usool may sound so complicated that no one in this ummah (after Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal ra) could understand them based on the evidence from Quran o Sunnah. That's the point where Talqeed is claimed to become wajib on everyone. This will be a lengthy discussion, uncovering the root cause of Taqleed for Scholars (not for common people). Please contribute.

Salam wr wb

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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 11:18

Salam,

From your queries it seems like you've looked into this. Do you have any starting information? Any research?

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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 11:55

lets start with what Shah Wali Ullah wrote

وَأما الَّذِي هُوَ دونه فِي الْمرتبَة فَهُوَ مُجْتَهد فِي الْمَذْهَب وَهُوَ مقلد لإمامه فِيمَا ظهر فِيهِ نَصه لكنه يعرف قَوَاعِد إِمَامه وَمَا بنى عَلَيْهِ مذْهبه فَإِذا وَقعت حَادِثَة لم يعرف لإمامه نصا فِيهَا اجْتهد على مذْهبه وخرجها من أَقْوَاله وعَلى منواله ودونه فِي الْمرتبَة مُجْتَهد الْفتيا وَهُوَ المتبحر فِي مَذْهَب إِمَامه المتمكن من تَرْجِيح قَول على آخر وَوجه من وُجُوه الْأَصْحَاب على آخر وَالله أعلم - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّم َ - بَاب فِي بَيَان اخْتِلَاف الْمُجْتَهدين - صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّم َ -

عقد الجيد في أحكام الاجتهاد والتقليد
Muqaddima

Imam Shammi ra wrote in Muqadima of Durrul Mohtar

الْأُولَى: طَبَقَةُ الْمُجْتَهِدِينَ فِي الشَّرْعِ كَالْأَئِمَّةِ الْأَرْبَعَةِ - رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ - وَمَنْ سَلَكَ مَسْلَكَهُمْ فِي تَأْسِيسِ قَوَاعِدِ الْأُصُولِ، وَبِهِ يَمْتَازُونَ عَنْ غَيْرِهِ.
الثَّانِيَةُ: طَبَقَةُ الْمُجْتَهِدِينَ فِي الْمَذْهَبِ كَأَبِي يُوسُفَ وَمُحَمَّدٍ وَسَائِرِ أَصْحَابِ أَبِي حَنِيفَةَ، الْقَادِرِينَ عَلَى اسْتِخْرَاجِ الْأَحْكَامِ مِنْ الْأَدِلَّةِ عَلَى مُقْتَضَى الْقَوَاعِدِ الَّتِي قَرَّرَهَا أُسْتَاذُهُمْ أَبُو حَنِيفَةَ فِي الْأَحْكَامِ وَإِنْ خَالَفُوهُ فِي بَعْضِ أَحْكَامِ الْفُرُوعِ، لَكِنْ يُقَلِّدُونَهُ فِي قَوَاعِدِ الْأُصُولِ، وَبِهِ يَمْتَازُونَ عَنْ الْمُعَارِضِينَ فِي الْمَذْهَبِ كَالشَّافِعِيِّ وَغَيْرِهِ الْمُخَالِفِينَ لَهُ فِي الْأَحْكَامِ غَيْرِ مُقَلِّدِينَ لَهُ فِي الْأُصُولِ.

and many other people wrote almost same thing. But no examples, no specific explanation. just a theory. So, here we need to identify what those Usool and Principles sound like which are made by a Mujtahid e Mutlaq ? examples will do great here. And lets take the case of Imam Abu hanifa ra as Mujtahid e Mutlaq. Most Scholars, i spoke to, actually have no clear idea about those usool. Some refer to things written in books like Usool e Shashi, Sharah Manar etc. but the principles written there are, firstly not made by Mujtahid e Mutlaq, and secondly they are so simple, straight forward that even a student can understand them based on evidence. I am looking to find something which is too complicated to be understood by anyone in ummah, even not by Sahibain ra, Ibn e Hummam, Al-Aninee, Mulla Ali Qari, Shah Wali Ullah etc. That's why all did talqeed of Mujtahid e Mutlaq..... salam wr w.

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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 12:19

This might be totally out of place, but I think two points I read somewhere before (don't remember where exactly) are very important for the total picture:

1. Regarding those classed as Mujtahid fil Madhhab for example, it does not mean they were not capable of being Mujtahid Mutlaqs. Similar those classed in the following categories does not automaticly mean they were restricted to those groups by their abilities, but rather that was the field, function and way they worked in and contributed to the Madhhab.

2. Deriving a principle and understanding a principle is two different things. After an Imam or Mujtahid of any rank lays out the principles it maybe understood by many, but who could have come to the same conclusions under the circumstances that the respective Mujtahid did?

This also not only applies to principles of Fiqh, but also to principles of Arabic language, of Tafseer, of Hadeeth etc.. They are all (relatively) easier to understand now after they have been laid down, but to actually derive them Masters of the sciences spent their whole lifes.

I might be wrong and am willing to learn from more knowledgable users, insha'Allah.

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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 12:43

May I recommend looking through this section please, there are plenty of answers in various forms. InshaAllah, you may be able to put together a few things and continue to share your concept with us.

www.muftisays.com/forums/77-taqleed--the-straight-path/

Also please provide the translation of the post above and in future posts.

جزاك الله خيرا

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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 13:09

Lets, first have the example of few principles made by Imam Abu Hanifa رضي الله عنه then we will see , how complicated they are ? ..... If a Imam makes a principle from Quran o Sunnah and a Second Scholar adopts it after assessing it as correct based on his research then the second Scholar is not said to be a muqalid of imam. Maximum, we can say that , the Scholar's research and that of Imam becomes Muwafiq (similar) ...... It is not a case of talqeed. ...... Taqleed in Usool means that Imam Abu Hanifa رضي الله عنه derived a principle from Quran o Sunnah and Imam Yusuf رضي الله عنه is not able to judge it based on knowledge hence he is forced to do Taqleed of Imam Abu Hanifa in this Usool .... so where are those Usools ? that's the question ? ...

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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 13:16

Please note this what Imam Shami wrote .... لَكِنْ يُقَلِّدُونَهُ فِي قَوَاعِدِ ... "Imam Abu Yusuf and Imam Muhammad doing TAQLEED of Imam e Azam ra, in principles".... again question , where are those principles written ? Are Sahibain doing Taqleed of those principle blindly ? or they consider those principles as correct based on Knowledge ? If they are following Principles what they assess as correct based on their knowledge , then it should not be called as Taqleed ... So before we go in depth, its vital to see examples of what those principle sound like ? I would request Ahnaf to provide examples please ..

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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 13:27

A point made by Yahya from SF:

Quote:

The great scholars Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ash-Shaybaani WERE INDEED mujtahids al-Mutlaq (the highest level of scholar, #1 above). And yes, they very well could have started their own madhhabs (and technically they did). However, you are not doing justice to their immense sincerity when you say that they followed Abu Hanifah "out of respect" for him.

The truth is that they AGREED with Abu Hanifah. They didn't "follow him out of respect." Rather, in full sincerity, with the full conviction of their hearts, they actually agreed with the Usool of Abu Hanifah. And as a result, they were not following him at all. Rather, they were following their own ijtihad, which happened to be the same as Abu Hanifah's.

But note that when they disagreed with Abu Hanifah, they did not make taqleed of him. Rather, they followed their own ijtihad, which is what every mujtahid MUST do.

Link to the Thread

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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 13:27

Have you studied any books of Usool under a scholar?

What are your qualifications?

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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 14:03

"The great Scholars Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ash-Shaybaani WERE INDEED Mujtahids al-Mutlaq" ......... This is not what is mentioned by Shami رضي الله عنه"

طَبَقَةُ الْمُجْتَهِدِينَ فِي الْمَذْهَبِ كَأَبِي يُوسُفَ وَمُحَمَّدٍ وَسَائِرِ أَصْحَابِ أَبِي حَنِيفَةَ، الْقَادِرِينَ عَلَى اسْتِخْرَاجِ الْأَحْكَامِ مِنْ الْأَدِلَّةِ عَلَى مُقْتَضَى الْقَوَاعِدِ الَّتِي قَرَّرَهَا أُسْتَاذُهُمْ أَبُو حَنِيفَةَ فِي الْأَحْكَامِ وَإِنْ خَالَفُوهُ فِي بَعْضِ أَحْكَامِ الْفُرُوعِ، لَكِنْ يُقَلِّدُونَهُ فِي قَوَاعِدِ الْأُصُولِ"
Yes , some books have mentioned that Sahibain ra are also Mujtahid e Mutlaq, .....
وقد صرَّح الحنفية بأن محمد بن الحسن، وأبا يوسف، كانا مجتهدين اجتهادًا مطلقًا كما عند الدهلوي1 في رسالته في الاجتهاد والتقليد وغيره، وإنما مذهبهما دُوِّنَا ممتزجين بمذهب أبي حنفية فنسب الكل إليه, however that's seems not a Rahe'h qool in Ahnaf, as per most hanafi books. However , we will exclude sahibain ra from this discussion to move on.

Still the question is there, what are examples of those complicated Principles which are made by Imam e Azam رضي الله عنه in a capacity of Mujtahid e Mutlaq, which can not be understood and assessed as right or wrong , based on the knowledge, by a Mujtahid fil mazhab or a lower ranked Mujtahid (like Murgnani, Haskafi, Ibn e Hummam, Ainee, Sarkhasi ra etc.) ? .... I would request to provide examples .

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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 16:37

Have you gone through the Taqleed section yet, brother? Link provided above.

Brother Seifeddine has some excellent posts and the history of their education and background and so on.

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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 18:07

I don't think the member is here to learn or educate. He/she is trying to prove taqleed to be incorrect.He/she wants to prove that there are many more Mujtahid Imaams after Imam Ahmad and even some today, so why cant we accept them too.

Am I right or am I wrong?

If I'm wrong, then the least you can do is read thorough these posts if you don't want to go through the taqleed section. I would also recommend the True Salaf section too, coz that covers way too much detail.

Lets start with Imam Ahmeds view on Abu Hanifa and his top most students
Who are they and what about them

Principles of Hanafi fiqh

Hadith is a Misguidance...

Categories of Hanafi Rulings

Rules pertaining to fiqh

Saudi Scholars opinion on Imam Abu Hanifa

Why did Abu Hanifa's students differ with him

Life and works of Abu Hanifa

Evolution of Hanafi Fiqh and its Sanad

Academic background

Thulaathiyyaat

The approach of the Hanafi school

The companions of Abu Hanifa

The Legacy of Abu Hanifa

The most learned of his time

Master of Hadith

Knowledge of Hadith

Hanafi and Hadith

Qiyaas

90% of the deen has no Taqleed

Taqleed of a scholar who is a Mujtahid

The Taqleed of an absolute Mujtahid

The nature of Taqleed

Taqleed of an expert scholar

The statements of the Mujtahid Imams regarding Taqleed

Go through these and then we'll go further, until then there aint much point you constantly copy and pasting the same question.

:)

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Ahmed ibn Hanbal said, "If in any matter there is agreement between three people, then one pays no attention to the verdict of anyone who disagrees with them." Someone asked him, "Who are they?" He answered, "Abu Hanifah, Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ibn al-Hasan.
As-Samani / kitab al-ansab.

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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 20:53

Thanks for these links. The first summary of links was "Abu Hanifa ra was a great, knowledgeable and expert Mujtahid". I agree to that while adding that there are 100's others like him or above him, in this Ummah. And it does not make either of them Infallible. ... some links to prove his status were really funny .. like this
www.muftisays.com/forums/76-the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/49...
I can copy from the book also ...
وروى عن أحمد ابن حنبل قال: إذا كان في المسألة قول ثلاثة لم يسمع مخالفتهم، فقلت: من هم؟ قال: أبو حنيفة وأبو يوسف ومحمد بن الحسن، فأبو حنيفة أنصر الناس 263/ ب بالقياس/ وأبو يوسف أنصر الناس بالآثار ومحمد بن الحسن أنصر الناس بالعربية
Imam Samani died in 562 AD quoting Ahmad bin hanbal ra , who died 300 years before him, with no chain. And Imam Ahmad quoted with sahih sanad in Al-illal some thing totally different about Abu Hanifa ra.

8 - حَدثنِي أبي قَالَ سَمِعت سُفْيَان بن عُيَيْنَة يَقُول استتيب أَبُو حنيفَة مرَّتَيْنِ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبُو زيد يَعْنِي حَمَّاد بن دَلِيل رجل من أَصْحَاب سُفْيَان لِسُفْيَان فِي مَاذَا فَقَالَ سُفْيَان تكلم بِكَلَام فَرَأى أَصْحَابه أَن يستتيبوه فَتَابَ
3589 - حَدثنِي الْحسن بن عبد الْعَزِيز الجروي الجذامي قَالَ سَمِعت أَبَا حَفْص عَمْرو بن أبي سَلمَة التنيسِي قَالَ سَمِعت الْأَوْزَاعِيّ يَقُول مَا ولد فِي الْإِسْلَام مَوْلُود أضرّ على الْإِسْلَام من أبي حنيفَة وَأبي مُسلم صَاحب

similarly , this link is also funny if you check chains of narrators .

www.muftisays.com/forums/76-the-true-salaf-as-saliheen/73...

Second summary is, some very general book of usool al-Fiqa is translated in a link.

So please tell , was there any answer of what i questioned ? Not at all .

I repeat , Please provide few examples of Usool made by Imam Abu hanifa رضي الله عنه which can not be assessed as correct or false by a lower rank of Mujtahid, based on his knowledge. i wana know why a lower rank mujtahid will do taqleed of Mujtahid e Mutlaq ? what is the difference in knowledge of both ranks. please practical examples only. thank you

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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 30th August 2014 21:12

Respected member, you want to discuss complex issues with laypeople?

Why not speak with Ulama, inshaAllah they will be able to assist.

When you have your answers, you can share them with us inshaAllah.

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 31st August 2014 04:05

Brother Abu Mohammad , Yaa Habibi Albi ,

The Scholars of Ahnaf , in general, do not like to have arguments on their Mazhab. They hate cross questioning. I am not sure if they don't have the answers or they don't know the answers. I am told that there are , mashaAllah, very knowledgeable Hanafis on this forum who are open to discussions. That's why i joined here. I always wish i could clarify my concept on this taqleed. But somehow, i don't find the people from Ahnaf who can answer based on knowledge. its not only taqleed, i also have doubts over ijma. Lets see if some bro can help it out

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Mujtahed Mutlaaq and Mujtahed fil Mazhaab

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