Love of one's shaykh is more than Rasulullah sallhualhiwasalam

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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:03

umar123 wrote:

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brother umar since most of the people of this forum are deobandis I am asking if a single deobandi akabir did not have a shaykh? Is that a reasonable question or not? If each and every single one of the akabireen had a shaykh then the followers surely need one? Is this a reasonable justification? The same argument can be used against some intolerent tablighis. If tabligh was enough for islaah why did ml ilyas rh take bait with 2 shaykhs and do loud zikr mostly after asr as per the chisti way? It is very simple stuff.

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london786

#62 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:08

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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Dear brother Muadh

London786 has not made this claim, rather, you have asked him this question serving to sensationalise this discussion further.

What is actually being said is as follows:

1. Keeping the company of the pious is a necessary commandment found in the Qur'an (kunu ma'as saadiqeen)

2. To attain piety, one needs to make concerted effort (walladheen jaahadoo feenaa lanahdiyannahum subulana)

3. To attain perfection in anything, one needs to keep the company of the experts. This is the Qur'an and Sunnah model of learning and teaching - a human way of learning and teaching, not a robotic, academic way. (as Musa AS asks Khidr AS for Suhbat: hal attabi'uka 'ala an tu'allimani mimma 'ullimta rushda)

4. Therefore, to attain piety, one needs to company of the pious.

5. The branch of Deen that has been accepted by Allah for this effort is known of Tasawwuf/Tazkiyah/Ihsan.

6. For Qubuliyyat, it is necessary to have Taqwa (Qur'an: Innama yataqabbalullahu minal muttaqeen - Allah will only accept from people of Taqwa/piety).

7. To have 'Ilm, you must have Khashiyyat (Qur'an: Innama yakhsallaha min 'ibadihil 'ulama - Only the people of Knowledge truly have Khashiyyat of Allah)

8. Therefore, to be a Maqbool 'Aalim (this is what London786 is referring to as "Big Ulama" perhaps), then you must have 'Ilm + Taqwa

9. It is either impossible, or next-to-impossible to attain Taqwa without Suhbah of the pious. Regardless, the Qur'an and Sunnah model demands that you keep Suhbah (ittaqullaha wa koonoo ma'as saadiqeen)

10. Therefore, in the entire history of Islam (not just since 1866 India) any person of Knowledge ('ilm) that attained Qubuliyyat in the sight of Allah, must have kept the Suhbah of the pious.

Muadh Khan: Do you have any problems with the above statements?

Jazakallah

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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:14

Guest-264470 wrote:

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yes, this is the model I refer to. I guess it was only in this day and age the need of a shaykh was being questioned?

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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:17

london786 wrote:

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Obviously since most of the Deobandi akabir had a shaykh, it is a valid act in Islam. No doubt about that bro. But as Muadh mentioned, we have to start from 1400+ years. Just like the 'Mawlid' argument that Deobandis put forward, none of the Salaf had a 'shaykh' per se. lol. (sorry about that jab :] )

In the meantime there is no doubt having a 'proper' shaykh who follows the shariah is a good thing and a way to stay away from the fitna that exist today.

But the discussion of this thread is not the validity of following a shakh. But about the 'cult behaviour' that is rampant amongst the mureeds today. In fact the discussion should not be contained just about so called sufis, but to other 'fanboys' of certain ulema/groups etc etc, which tarnish the reputation of that specific alim/group.

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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:19

london786 wrote:

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The aamals of Tabligh under the guidance of the Ulama/elders is sufficient for Islah, because I see a lot of Tablighis who don't have a Shaykh & their humility, simplicity & hard work are second to none.

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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:20

umar123 wrote:

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well bro considering today's climate I see hardly any other way of salvation except the work of tablighi jamaat/tasawuff for one's islaah. If one wants a DIY approach all well and good. We have to start from 1400+ years. Their sulook was far more intense. Let us not even get started on the salaf. The staying awake all night, fasting all day, serious mujahidah etc. The tasawuff of that age was a lot more hardcore than today.

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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:28

Jinn wrote:

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I can name you many mashaikh who are happy to be corrected. Mufti kamaludeen db is one of them.
Maulana yusuf motala db once pulled over shaykh muhammad muslim db after class and told him in a very genuine way that you guys must consider me worse than a pig.
Many many mashaikh give preference to all and not just the rich. We can mention some names. How about maulana hashim of Bury or mufti faruq of clapton.

The point is just because we may not have come across such mashaikh be rest assurred they still exist.

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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:29

"5. The branch of Deen that has been accepted by Allah for this effort is known of Tasawwuf/Tazkiyah/Ihsan. "

i assume thats a matter of opinion. others may say tabligh, ilm, physical struggle etc... as long X is done in the frequent company of pious individuals and ulama.

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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:31

Guest-264470 wrote:

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Yes definitely pious company is necessary in whatever forms that is available. Tariqa is one of them. But now the discussion is the negative effects that exist today amongst such people. Why is it some people instead of gaining piety, turn into hooligans who bully anyone that disagrees with their shaykh.

Imam Shafi'i (rahimahullah) who disagreed with rulings of Imam Abu Hanifa(rahimahullah) was held in high regard by his student Imam Shaybani (rahimahullah). If I m not wrong, once Imam Shaybani (rahimahullah) saved Imam Shafi'i رضي الله عنه from being wrongly punished by the Khalifah.

Similarly we see ikhtilaaf with RESPECT and ADAB which existed amongst the Salaf. We all know Imam Abu Hanifaرضي الله عنه's statement how quickly Imam Malikرضي الله عنه accepts the truth and how Imam Shafi'i رضي الله عنه wished that truth comes from the mouth of the person who he debated so that both of them will accept the truth. But today people follow only 1 person and reject the rest. Its ok to follow a particular group/shaykh, but one should also realize that it is not the only right path. And if he is following a single person, he can be wrong, because not all shaykh/alims are academically spectacular, so they are often corrected by others and people should accept this fact.

Atleast some of the level headed people in this forum should realize this. It would be a good start, InshaAllah.

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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:33

I have 5 fingers and I need them all.

Each finger serves a different purpose, having one without the other is pretty much useless.

The fingers need the hand/palm, the hand needs the arm, the arm needs a torso, the torso needs a head, the head needs a brain.

The brain is the only thing (physically) that makes the fingers work.

Many people don't use their brain, they just pick up their hand and hit. These people are morons Some people don't use their brain, they never lift a finger, these people are lazy/scared!

There needs to be a balance in all aspects of life.

A bit long, I guess the first sentence should've sufficed.

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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:33

AM wrote:

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mashallah may ALLAH SWT reward such tablighis. Still does not change the fact that each of the elders of tabligh had a shaykh and would involve themselves in the zikr/shugl of tariqa. Ml inam ul hasan rh should have spent his time in ghust, taleem etc instead of doing his thousands of isme zaat daily? You agree with the logic?

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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:37

london786 wrote:

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I respectfully disagree bro.
From where I live Sufis are non-existent and few sufis I have heard about are charltans who say they don't have to pray Salah.
And the few Tableeghis that exist here say they are not Sunnis, (since most of the sunnis here are shafi'is they want to distance themselves from us to form a separate group. Also the Shafi'is are also guilty in distancing themselves from them.) More Cult mentality.

So you are suggesting My salvation lies by joining the 2 groups above.
No. Absolutely not.

Edit: Perhaps in Uk I would have tried out TJ or visited a shaykh. But not in my hometown.
Maybe I ll change my mind about TJ, after I see some level headed Tableeghis inshaAllah.

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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:41

umar123 wrote:

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so where does your salvation lie umar? Is it muftisays? I agree for many people it is a difficult to find a proper shaykh. Tabligh jamaat is everywhere including kerala and one easily join in their amaals. I am genuinely interested to find out where you will go for islaah?

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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:44

Daywalk3r wrote:

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Jazakallah dear brother Daylwalk3r

Actually I would disagree because, Tazkiyah is a separate function to Ta'leem. This is very clear in the Qur'an, in several places wherein the mission of Nabi SAW is summarised as four functions:

1. Tilawah of Qur'an
2. Tazkiyah
3. Ta'leem of Qur'an
4. Ta'leem of Hikmah

The tableegh and physical struggle are things which are supporting and facilitating the core functions of Nubuwwah. In fact, they are in reality the carrying-out of the functions of Nubuwwah - i.e. the propagation and establishment of and encouraging towards the above. This is why many people become confused because, for example, the qualities of a talented Da'i/Muballigh combines the above functions. Thus, people mistake their act of Tableegh to be Tazkiyah in and of itself, or the act of Tableegh to be 'Ilm in and of itself. This is incorrect. Tazkiyah is a standalone discipline in this Deen - it is NOT the entire Deen, but it certainly is PART of the Deen.

In Qur'an it is called Tazkiyah, in Hadith it is termed Ihsan, and in common terms, the word Tasawwuf has been used. This is a point of semantics, and you will see various labels for the same reality in every matter. Therefore, it is the reality that we are talking about, and not the name.

If the reality of Tazkiyah is present in a Madrasah system (as it was in the Madaris of our Akabir), then yes, you can say that the function Tazkiyah is occurring simultaneously with the function of Ta'leem. However, distinction has to be made between the two, as has been done in the Qur'an.

Jazakallah

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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 6th June 2014 12:45

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Once again, in order to understand it is critical to read and understand and analyse if there is anything in the text which a person can deem to be disagreeable in the light of Islamic Shariah.

Text: Why does he need to seek a "Shaykh"? If he consults with Ulama and Fuqaha and makes Mushwara that is sufficient for his Islah, is it not? Please categorically state the evidence for a "Shaykh" when the requirements are being fulfilled by other Ulama.

Now to the point of discussion:

The claim made is EVERY DEOBANDI had a Shaykh to which the responses given (are):

Did Islam start in India in 1866? How is that irrelevant, please explain instead of dismissing it as irrelevant,?
If it didn't then again I havn't made any claims to be proving anything.

I didn't make that claim and it is well known that whoever makes the claim needs to prove.

Jazakallahu Khayran

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