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There is no Prophet unless he has a Wasi? - Debate

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd May 2014 01:29
Asalamualaikum brothers.

There was an interesting and insightful debate that took place on HCY regarding the topic above. I think you'll find it education and entertaining to say the least. It was between Hani (TripolySunni) and a Shia.

I'd like your thoughts and who you think whose argument was stronger.

There is no Prophet unless he has a Wasi?
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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd May 2014 04:39
I've just spent my valuable time to read a Shi'ite's gibberish.

However, no effort is devoid of benefits if made sincerely for learning. It unrevealed before me plots of Shaytaan by the name of intellect, logic etc. Those poor guys have been entangled perfectly by this snare.

This is why Allaah سبحانه وتعالى has given us standards- Quran and Sunnah.

Logic isn't standard. This can't be the basis of Islam. This point alone proves futility of his whole discussion.

That Shi'ite made mistake by taking "logic" as the standard (or his leaders have made him to take).

His "syllogism" theory can't be proof of Islam. Anyone can make syllogism which negates the existence of Allaah سبحانه وتعالى (Na'udhubillaah). I'm not mentioning such syllogism because what's the need to write statements of Kufr?

Another important aspect is noticeable that people having shallow depth of 'ilm are easy prey for Baatil and Kuffar sects. Their knowledge is so poor that they can't get out of the labyrinth of logic and see what Allaah سبحانه وتعالى and Rasul (saw) said.
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd May 2014 11:12
This is the notorious syllogism used by that Shi'ite (he also claimed himself an ex-Sunni):

Herz1007 wrote:
1- Allah's system is perfect.

2- Human ijithad is imperfect.

3- Allah's system does not have human ijithad.


This^ logic seems correct. There's no flaw in this syllogism. Just like:

1- Man is mortal.

2- 'Abdullaah is a man.

3- Therefore 'Abdullaah is mortal.

However, we Muslims are bound to judge everything by Quran, Sunnah and not by logic. Therefore every logic MUST be scrutinized by Quran and Sunnah.

Now going back to his syllogism,

A. the first general statement is- 1. Allah's system is perfect.

This is definitely a valid statement.

B. Second general statement is- 2. Human ijithad is imperfect.

The real problem lies in this statement. "Human ijtihad is imperfect." Why? Because human is imperfect. Allaah سبحانه وتعالى created us in this way. BUT, if Allaah سبحانه وتعالى accepts this imperfection, then no question can arise further. And there are ample proofs in Seerah that difference of opinions regarding a single issue were accepted by Rasul (saw). Rasul's (saw) acceptance resembles Allaah's سبحانه وتعالى acceptance. Moreover, those Sahabah رضي الله عنهم who were praised by Allaah سبحانه وتعالى numerous times for their complete devotion to Islam, had differences in many opinions after Rasul's (saw) demise. We, Sunnis call it "valid difference of opinions" which our noble Mujtahid Imams preserved.

That poor guy was trying to make Sunni brothers accept his conclusion that "Allah's system does not have human ijithad". If they would accept it, he could present his Shi'ite interpretation of Islam. Which goes like this- Allaah سبحانه وتعالى didn't reveal multiple rulings for a single issue. Sunni Imams couldn't find out those specific rulings (of Allaah سبحانه وتعالى) and differed in their opinions, which created multiple rulings for a single issue. Then how can Ummah find out Allaah's سبحانه وتعالى original ruling? The solution is Shi'ites' 12 Imams. Allaah سبحانه وتعالى preserved Deen through them in authentic form. The last one, hiding in a cave will emerge to show and establish Allaah's سبحانه وتعالى authentic commands.

Allaah سبحانه وتعالى command is definitely specific regarding a specific issue. We (Sunnis) do believe that Allaah's سبحانه وتعالى specific commands are preserved perfectly among our Madhahib. Regarding any difference of opinion, only one opinion is the authentic command of Allaah سبحانه وتعالى. Then what about others? Well, others are wholeheartedly acceptable to Allaah سبحانه وتعالى (although these differ from His command) because these opinions were also derived from Quran and Sunnah.

C. His conclusive statement was based upon those^ two general statements- 3- Allah's system does not have human ijithad.

This is correct from profane rule of logic, but not from the view of Shari'ah.

As revelation of divine guidance was terminated with the demise of Rasul (saw), there's no way other than ijtihad to know Allaah's سبحانه وتعالى command regarding issues which arise.

However, these discussions are meaningless for twelver Shi'ites. Because they-

1. don't accept Sahabah رضي الله عنهم, let alone Tabi'in and Atba-Tabi'in.

2. have their own concocted Hadith books.

3. have a perfect weapon in their arsenal- Taqiyya.
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd May 2014 12:05
Excerpts from Mufti Taqi Usmani's (Daamat Barakaatuhu) "Islahi Khutbaat":

Allah has granted us Intellect

In this connection a relevant question arises. How should secular state or a state not based on any religious principles conduct its affairs? This question is replied to by saying that we do possess intellect, we have also the facilities of observation and experience which may help us decide as to what are our needs and the demands of life in the present conditions of the world by meeting which we can make the wheels of government revolve peacefully and safely. We may indeed have to effect changes and amendments in the system of government, as and when needed. Thus can we follow the path of peace and prosperity.

Is intellect the last standard?

In a secular system of government Intellect, Observation and Experience have been taken as the final standard to rely upon. We have now to find out how efficient is really this standard. Can this standard be so effective and efficient as to guide humanity till the Day of Judgment? Can this so-called standard based on intellect, observation and experience alone, prove sufficient and effective for human life?

Sources of Knowledge

In order to find out an answer to this question we must realize the truth that no system of life can work successfully, unless it has at its back a treasure of knowledge to propel it onwards. It should also be noted at this stage that Almighty Allah has bestowed on man certain sources of knowledge, each source possessing a specific jurisdiction but beyond this jurisdiction it becomes in-effective.

The Jurisdiction of the Five Senses

It may be mentioned, as an example. that the first of these sources for acquiring knowledge are the five senses, viz., the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, etc. Man is able to acquire knowledge about many things by using his eyesight, by tasting things with the tongue, by smelling things with the nose, by hearing words with the ears and by touching objects with his hands. However, each of these sources of knowledge which fall within the jurisdiction of observation has a limit of its own beyond which it can do nothing. For example, the eye can see but it cannot hear; the ear can hear but it cannot see; the nose can smell but it cannot see. If there is a man who desires to use each of these organs for a function for which it has not been created by Allah, that man shall be taken by the world to be a fool, for being ignorant of the functions of these organs.

The second source of knowledge is the Intellect

As already mentioned, the working limits of these five senses reach a boundary which they cannot cross. At this stage, neither of these senses is effective. This is the stage at which, knowledge of things cannot be acquired through observation. To meet this challenge, Almighty Allah has bestowed upon us another source of knowledge and that is the Intellect which helps man to acquire knowledge where the Five Senses become ineffective and helpless. For example, there is a table lying before me. I can know its colour by seeing it with the eyes. I can know by touching it with my hands that it is made of hard wood and is covered with Formica. Yet, none of these senses helps me to know how this table came into existence, because the process of its manufacture did not take place before me. I such a situation my Intellect guides me by suggesting to me that such a finely finished object cannot come into existence by itself. Some expert artisan has
made this beautiful table and he is the expert carpenter. It is my Intellect that has taught me that the table was made by carpenter. It is thus proved that my Intellect came to my help when my Five senses left me helpless.

The Jurisdiction of the Intellect

It should however, be noted that just as the Jurisdiction of the Five senses is limited in the same way the jurisdiction of the Intellect is also limited. The Intellect, too helps man to a certain limit, then leaves him helpless, as if cannot go beyond the limit of its jurisdiction in providing guidance to man.

The third source of knowledge is Divine Revelation

Almighty Allah has granted man another source of knowledge to help and guide him where his Intellect leaves him helpless. That source is Divine Revelation, meaning provision of knowledge to man by Allah through heavenly revelation. This source of knowledge starts from the place where the jurisdiction of the Intellect fails. Thus to try to use the Intellect in the presence of Divine Revelation is just like trying to see things by the, ears instead of by the eyes and so on so forth. It does not mean that the Intellect is a useless faculty. No, it is highly serviceable, rather indispensable to man but within its jurisdiction and not beyond that.

The difference between Islam and Secularism

The difference between Islamic and secular system of life lies that in the secular system the process of knowledge comes to an end after reaching the limits of the first two sources, viz. the Five senses and the Intellect as there is no third source of knowledge available to propel
the secular system onwards. As against this, Islam claims that there exists another source of knowledge for you and that is the Divine Revelation.

The need for Divine Revelation

We have not to see how far this claim of Islam holds good in our contemporary world that the Intellect cannot guide man to acquire knowledge and guidance without any limit and in all circumstances, but the world stands in need of Prophets and Messengers of Allah and Revealed Books.

The Intellect is a Deceptive Faculty

In these times great emphasis is being laid on the Intellectual Faculty (or Rationalism) and it is said that every decision should be taken after considering the pros and cons of every problem in the light of Rationalism. However, this Rationalism does not possess a set formula
or fixed principles to provide universal truths, acceptable to all men, to serve as an infallible standard to judge what is right and what is wrong, what is to be adopted and what is to be rejected. If we leave this decision to the dictates of Intellect we are liable to commit devastating faults. Just turn the pages of history to find out for yourself how grievously and fatally the faculty of Intellect has misguided humanity into destruction and deluge. I cite below a few instances from the pages of history.

To marry one's own sister is not against Intellect

About eight hundred years ago a sect sprang up in the Islamic World under the name of the 'Batini' or the "Qaramitia" sect. Ubaiduallah Bin Hasan Qirwani was one of its renowned leaders. He wrote an interesting letter to his followers about how they should lead their lives. He writes:

The People have in their households a beautiful and well-behaved girl in the person of a sister who is well acquainted with the temperament and psychology of her brother, but this fool gives her hand in marriage to a stranger, without knowing whether or not the couple would pull on with each other peacefully and willingly. As for himself, be brings a wife who is much inferior to his sister in beauty, behaviour, adaptability and considerateness.

I fail to understand why one should hand over the wealth of one's own household to a stranger and bring to one's own household a girl who cannot provide her mate with the desired peace and comfort. This is a sheer folly. This is against wisdom. I therefore, advise my followers to shun this folly and preserve the wealth of their household in its original place.
(Al-farq lil-haghdadie, p. 297 and Bayanul-mazahib al-Batinya, lil Dalimi p.81)


The sister and Sexual Satisfaction

At another place the same Ubaidullah Bin Hasan Qirwani conveys the following message to his followers on the basis of wisdom:

When a sister can prepare food for her brother to satisfy his hunger, wash his clothes, arrange his bedding and provide him with other comforts why can she not satisfy his sexual urge also? This is indeed against wisdom. (Ibid)

Impossible to repudiate this argument with the help of the Intellect

However, vehemently you may curse this man, you will not be able to repudiate his arguments till the Day of Judgment with pure intellect that is devoid of Divine Revelation.

This is not immoral from the Intellectual point of view

If a man says that this is grossly immoral, grievously disgustful, this may be repudiated by saying that this feeling of immorality and disgust is the result of the prevailing social trends and customs. You have been born and are living in a society where this is considered as
something very repulsive and hateful, otherwise in the eyes of the intellect this is not at all disgustful.

Preservation of genealogy offers no intellectual argument

If you say that this practice vitiates the genealogical line, this may be repudiated by saying that there is no harm in this. The idea of reserving the genealogical lineage is not based on any intellectual principle.

This too is a part of the Human urge

If you say in reply to this argument that this is harmful medically, because research has established that the system of Incest (sexual relations between close relation) is medically harmful. Are you aware that books are being published today in the Western world that Incest is a part of the naturalhuman urge; and it is not correct to say that it is harmful medically. Not only is this an echo of the same slogan which Ubaidullah bin Hasan Qairwani had raised eight hundred years ago, but it is now being actually practiced in the western countries.

The result of freedom from Divine Revelation

Why is all this happening? It is because we are trying to use the Intellect in matters which lie beyond its jurisdiction and in which the Divine Revelation alone can provide guidance. One result of releasing the Intellect from the grip of the Divine Revelation may be seen in the fact that the British Parliament has passed the law of legalizing homosexuality under the thump of clappings.

And now this vice has become a regular science, Once I happened to visit a library in New York. I found there a separate section devoted to literature on the subject, "Gay style of life". A large number of books have been published on this subject and many associations are working for this under the auspices of persons holding high positions. The then Mayor of New York was also a Gay.
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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd May 2014 14:05
Asalamualaikum brother,

I'm glad you found it interesting. I hear ya'.

Brother Hani put the poor sode in his place.
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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd May 2014 14:19
Assalaamu Alaykum

Link not loading for me.

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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd May 2014 14:27
afriki_haqq wrote:
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What happens when you hit the link?
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