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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 1st November 2013 20:32

In Arabic, the root with heavy 'h' carries the meaning:

Quote:

To praise or eulogize or commend someone, speak well of someone, mention someone with approbation, approve of a thing, recompense/pay someone his due, to be praiseworthy or commendable. Verb form 8: said of heat: to burn or burn fiercely, to be vehement.[/quote]

and the root with the softer 'h' carries the meaning:
[quote]to be lifeless, barren, extinguish, none of it remaining, went out entirely, died, became extinct, perished, it (e.g. clothing) became worn out, still/quietened (e.g. wind), silent, he remained/continued/stayed in a place (i.e. did not move), stroke/apoplexy, dry and dusty, wasted, blackened and changed (for the worse), fruit black and stinking.

This is very serious actually. Most Turks I know who were born and raised in Turkey with little to no training in other languages where there are letters that produce the heavier 'h' sound, pronounce all words from this root with a soft 'h'; so soft in fact, you almost don't even hear the 'h'.

(source)

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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 1st November 2013 20:40

I often feel bad when other Turks make fun of me for trying to make the full sound. I've heard too often "we're Turkish, we're not Arabs." "Why are you saying the words as if you're an Arab." "Just say it properly - either say "elhamd�lillah" or say the Turkish "Allah'a hamd olsun!" Too often names are pronounced memet or amet (the 'h' is so soft, sometimes it is dropped altogether).

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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 1st November 2013 23:25

On the issue of changes in languages: Some Turks reconsidering Arabic connection to Turkish language.

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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 1st November 2013 23:41

Turkish mispronunciation is due to spelling rules. People read it just as it is spelled and so the variation in the two 'h' are not known to most. And this goes full-circle back to the issue of introducing new letters to accommodate for this - especially if so many use the blessed name. More language reforms in Turkey?

How about an Arabic take-over of language? Insha'Allah.

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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd November 2013 00:19

The decision-making authority on language matters
Grammar and spelling rules in Turkish are determined by an authority called the 'Turkish Language Society'. The Turkish Language Society (T�rk Dil Kurumu) was established by Atat�rk (founder of the Turkish Republic and the first president of the country) on 12 July 1932 under the name 'Turkish Language Investigation Association' (T�rk Dili Tetkik Cemiyeti). The Association changed to its present name in 1936.

At the time it was established, its aim was to bring out the richness of the Turkish language itself and to give it its due standing among the languages of the world. In order to achieve these aims, firstly all the elements foreign to the Turkish language were to be eliminated. Although loan words (from Persian and Arabic ) were and are still widely used, their alternative 'pure' Turkish words were introduced as well. These words, as Lewis (1991: xxi) puts it,
... were old words that survived in spoken Turkish; some were obsolete words resurrected, some were borrowed from other Turkic languages, some were deliberate inventions.
Thus one has the choice between using loan words or their pure Turkish alternatives. One might want to use the word tayyare (aeroplane) - an Arabic word - or its alternative u�ak - a pure Turkish word derived from the word u�mak(to fly). The choice is solely a matter of preference although younger generations have a much stronger tendency to use the 'pure' Turkish words.

Another aim of the Association was to eliminate the discrimination between the language used by the ordinary people in the street and the language used by the administration and the intellectuals.

The third aim was to announce the necessity for the creation of a national language whose elements were Turkish.

The Turkish Language Society regularly publishes an official dictionary called iml� Kılavuzu (Spelling Guide). Kuşcu (date unknown) in his T�rk�e S�zl�k ve Yazım Kılavuzu (Turkish Dictionary and Spelling Guide) provides a list of Turkish spelling rules that was published by the Association in 1985. Some of the 75 articles are now discussed for their potential relevance to spelling reform in other languages.

The N that precedes a B or P in a foreign loan word is changed into an M. For example, the Arabic word anbar (storehouse) becomes ambar in Turkish; the Persian word Perşenbe (Thursday) becomes Perşembe. istanbul is an exception to the rule.

(It may be added here that in spoken Turkish it is not uncommon to come across Istambul or istambul.)

No vowel is inserted between the two consonants whether at the beginning, middle or end of some Western loan words.

(However, Turkish speakers often insert an unstressed vowel sound between the two consonants. The examples below show that it is customary, though there may be exceptions, to pronounce Western loan words with consonant strings with an /ι/ in the middle.

For example: pro-fe-s�r /pιrofes�r/, tren /tιren/, gram /gιram/, gra-mer /gιramer/, stres /sιtιres/, psi-ko-lo-ji /pιsιkoloʒι/, l�ks /lyks/ or /lykys/, film /fιlm/ or /fιlιm/, e-lek-trik /elektιrιk/, or-kes-tra /orkestιra/.

(All such loan words, however, are written in such a way that the consonant strings remain together and are not separated. The word 'stres' is an interesting example in that it contains a three consonant string. The only consonant strings in native Turkish words occur syllable-finally after a vowel, as in the examples �st [upper surface, top] and T�rk [Turkish]. These are not pronounced with an intervening vowel.

A vowel is placed between the two consonants which exist at the end of some words borrowed from Arabic or Persian (e.g. the word şehr which means 'city' in Persian is written in Turkish as şehir).However, if Turkish suffixes are added to these borrowed words the vowel is not written (e.g. şehir / şehre - to the city). [N.B. This rule does not apply when the suffix to be added is in the locative or the ablative case. The word şehir becomes şehirde (in the city) in the locative case and şehirden (from the city) in the ablative case.]
Western loan words that have a widespread use in Turkish are spelt in accordance with the Turkish orthography (e.g. doktor /doktor/, kovboy /kovboj/, radyo /radjo/, şof�r /ʃ�f�r/ trajedi /tıraʒedi/, komedi /komedι/, televizyon /televızjon/, rekt�r /rekt�r/).
Terms used in science and specialized fields keep their original spelling (e.g. adagio, andante).

Foreign loan words that contain different Latin letters to those in Turkish keep their foreign spelling.
(It may here be added that this rule is not in common practice. Many examples that do not conform to this rule can be found. The letters Q, W and X are not used in Turkish, nor are they spelt in their foreign forms. Maske [masque], sandvi� [sandwich], egzoz [exhaust], ekspres [express].)

(Source)

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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd November 2013 00:27

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE [TURKISH] LANGUAGE
As stated in Lewis (1991: xix), Turkish is a member of the south-western or Oghuz group of the Turkic languages, the others being: the Turkic dialects of the Balkans; Azeri or Azerbaijani, spoken in northwest Persia and ... Azerbaijan; the Quashqai of south Persia; the Turkmen or Turcoman of ... Turkmenistan.

In the tenth century the Turkish people began to migrate into western Asia and it was in this century, too, that they started to convert to Islam and adopt the Arabo-Persian alphabet.

Lewis (ibid: xx) goes on to describe the historical changes in the eleventh century when the Turkish people were under the leadership of the Seljuk dynasty:

... when ... they overran Persia, Persian became the language of administration and literary culture. Persian had by this time borrowed a great many words from Arabic. These, together with a host of Persian words, were now at the disposal of educated Turks who felt free to use any they wished as part of their vocabulary. The bulk of these Arabic and Persian borrowings were never assimilated to Turkish phonetic patterns. More, with the foreign words came foreign grammatical conventions.
By the eleventh century, the development of Persian literature had slowed down because of the spread of Arabs into Persia. However, it soon regained power as the Turkish sultans attracted the well-known Persian poets and writers to their palaces and protected them. Turkish poets and scholars, too, used Persian in their works of art, thus contributing to the development of Persian literature.

By the end of the twelfth century, the Arab influence in the fields of science and literature gradually lost its power, giving way to Persian which spread over Anatolia (roughly the territory of modern Turkey). In the thirteenth century Persian developed as the language of the administration and of science and literature.

In 1299, when the Turkish Ottoman Empire was established in Anatolia, 'Turkish' became the language used by the New Troops, or Yeni�eri Corps/Janissary (Yeni�eri Ocağı - 'yeni�eri' meaning 'foot soldier') and by the Convent Sect/Chapel of Dervishes (Tekke). The administration, however, supported the development of classical literature and used an artificial language mainly influenced by Arabic and Persian. This language soon became so distinct from the spoken language that even those people who knew Turkish, Arabic and Persian had great difficulty in understanding it. Turkish, however, continued to develop as a spoken language and was also used in the literature written for the ordinary people rather than for the administrators, i.e. the sultans.

The beginning of the 19th century saw the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. This led to the Tanzimat Movement (the political reforms of Sultan Abd�lmejid in 1839). It aimed at re-establishing an administration and also becoming westernised. Even before the Tanzimat Movement, towards the end of the Ottoman Empire period, a cultural relationship between the Turkish and the French had started. With the Tanzimat, western ideas developed more quickly. Levend (1972: 80) states that young people who travelled to France or who learnt French in their home country, learnt the principles of the French Revolution and wanted to spread these in their home country. Using the Arabo-Persian alphabet, however, was the biggest obstacle to intellectual development. Many attempts were made to simplify the Turkish language and the press played a crucial role.

A letter written at the beginning of the 19th century by a Turkish captain to his wife deserves mentioning. As stated in (T�rk Dil Kurumu'nun 40. yılı - 40th anniversary of the Turkish Language Society - 1972: 29), the letter consisted of an end note which was written in Turkish, with Latin transcription, rather than in the Arabo-Persian alphabet. To quote from that source: "'d�ş�nmelidir ki' was written as duchunm�lidir qui; and 'heyeti umumiyesinden' was written as h�i�ti oumoumiy�sind�ne..."; this showed strong French influence.

Another incident worth mentioning dates back towards the end of World War I, when Mustafa Kemal (who in 1935 assumed the surname 'Atat�rk' - 'Father of the Turks') came across a Turkish grammar book written by the Hungarian linguist N�meth (T�rkische Grammatik, Leipzig 1916). The Turkish texts in the book were written in a Latin alphabet. The same source pointed to the existence of three types of Turkish: one used in official matters and in literature, another used by the Turkish middle class, and thirdly, the language of the ordinary people and villagers. When Atat�rk read this information, he was infuriated and stated that this discrimination had to end and thus enable everybody to understand the language of the press.

THE SPELLING REFORM
The Ottoman sultanate was formally abolished in 1922. A year later, on 29 October 1923, Turkey was declared a secular republic. The debates concerning westernisation and the adoption of a Latin alphabet had already started much earlier at the beginning of the twentieth century.

Those against a spelling reform argued that Koran could not and should not be written in Latin letters. They feared that the adoption of a Latin alphabet would soon wipe away and bury all past achievements. They also considered the adoption of a Latin alphabet as the adoption of a French alphabet, and they objected to it.

The main objective of those for the spelling reform, however, was to construct a Latin alphabet in line with the structures of the Turkish language. They argued that the Arabic script was not suitable for Turkish. They also maintained that the illiteracy rate was very high due to the difficulty of learning the Arabo-Persian alphabet.

Despite all the debates for and against the spelling reform, the National Assembly (established on 23 April 1920) agreed on 3 November 1928 to carry out the Reform. Soon an 'alphabet mobilisation' was started. Schools were set up to teach the new alphabet; language lessons were broadcast on the radio; Turkish grammar books were published. At the time many sceptics believed that the adoption and correct use of a new alphabet would take many years. Atat�rk, however, argued that the people had to do their best to learn the alphabet so that the literacy rate would increase rapidly. Laws were passed to ensure that companies and public and private institutions used the new alphabet in correspondence. The deadline for the elimination of the Arabo-Persian alphabet was announced to be 1 January 1929. This meant that all the legal documents written after this date would have to be in the new alphabet. Books that had been in use until the Reform were all abolished and books that used the new alphabet were published. The result of the official adoption of the new alphabet and orthography was, as Hildreth (1972:71) states:

Whereas, up to 1928, only 9% of the total population were literate, far more men than women, by 1935, the overall literacy rate was 20%, males 30%, females 10%. By 1940, literacy thruout the country was 22%; by 1960, 59% (women 43%, men 75%).... the large gains with modernization are directly attributable to Turkish spelling reform.

(source)

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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd November 2013 00:28

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE [TURKISH] LANGUAGE
As stated in Lewis (1991: xix), Turkish is a member of the south-western or Oghuz group of the Turkic languages, the others being: the Turkic dialects of the Balkans; Azeri or Azerbaijani, spoken in northwest Persia and ... Azerbaijan; the Quashqai of south Persia; the Turkmen or Turcoman of ... Turkmenistan.

In the tenth century the Turkish people began to migrate into western Asia and it was in this century, too, that they started to convert to Islam and adopt the Arabo-Persian alphabet.

Lewis (ibid: xx) goes on to describe the historical changes in the eleventh century when the Turkish people were under the leadership of the Seljuk dynasty:
... when ... they overran Persia, Persian became the language of administration and literary culture. Persian had by this time borrowed a great many words from Arabic. These, together with a host of Persian words, were now at the disposal of educated Turks who felt free to use any they wished as part of their vocabulary. The bulk of these Arabic and Persian borrowings were never assimilated to Turkish phonetic patterns. More, with the foreign words came foreign grammatical conventions.

By the eleventh century, the development of Persian literature had slowed down because of the spread of Arabs into Persia. However, it soon regained power as the Turkish sultans attracted the well-known Persian poets and writers to their palaces and protected them. Turkish poets and scholars, too, used Persian in their works of art, thus contributing to the development of Persian literature.

By the end of the twelfth century, the Arab influence in the fields of science and literature gradually lost its power, giving way to Persian which spread over Anatolia (roughly the territory of modern Turkey). In the thirteenth century Persian developed as the language of the administration and of science and literature.

In 1299, when the Turkish Ottoman Empire was established in Anatolia, 'Turkish' became the language used by the New Troops, or Yeni�eri Corps/Janissary (Yeni�eri Ocağı - 'yeni�eri' meaning 'foot soldier') and by the Convent Sect/Chapel of Dervishes (Tekke). The administration, however, supported the development of classical literature and used an artificial language mainly influenced by Arabic and Persian. This language soon became so distinct from the spoken language that even those people who knew Turkish, Arabic and Persian had great difficulty in understanding it. Turkish, however, continued to develop as a spoken language and was also used in the literature written for the ordinary people rather than for the administrators, i.e. the sultans.

The beginning of the 19th century saw the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. This led to the Tanzimat Movement (the political reforms of Sultan Abd�lmejid in 1839). It aimed at re-establishing an administration and also becoming westernised. Even before the Tanzimat Movement, towards the end of the Ottoman Empire period, a cultural relationship between the Turkish and the French had started. With the Tanzimat, western ideas developed more quickly. Levend (1972: 80) states that young people who travelled to France or who learnt French in their home country, learnt the principles of the French Revolution and wanted to spread these in their home country. Using the Arabo-Persian alphabet, however, was the biggest obstacle to intellectual development. Many attempts were made to simplify the Turkish language and the press played a crucial role.

A letter written at the beginning of the 19th century by a Turkish captain to his wife deserves mentioning. As stated in (T�rk Dil Kurumu'nun 40. yılı - 40th anniversary of the Turkish Language Society - 1972: 29), the letter consisted of an end note which was written in Turkish, with Latin transcription, rather than in the Arabo-Persian alphabet. To quote from that source: "'d�ş�nmelidir ki' was written as duchunm�lidir qui; and 'heyeti umumiyesinden' was written as h�i�ti oumoumiy�sind�ne..."; this showed strong French influence.

Another incident worth mentioning dates back towards the end of World War I, when Mustafa Kemal (who in 1935 assumed the surname 'Atat�rk' - 'Father of the Turks') came across a Turkish grammar book written by the Hungarian linguist N�meth (T�rkische Grammatik, Leipzig 1916). The Turkish texts in the book were written in a Latin alphabet. The same source pointed to the existence of three types of Turkish: one used in official matters and in literature, another used by the Turkish middle class, and thirdly, the language of the ordinary people and villagers. When Atat�rk read this information, he was infuriated and stated that this discrimination had to end and thus enable everybody to understand the language of the press.

THE SPELLING REFORM
The Ottoman sultanate was formally abolished in 1922. A year later, on 29 October 1923, Turkey was declared a secular republic. The debates concerning westernisation and the adoption of a Latin alphabet had already started much earlier at the beginning of the twentieth century.

Those against a spelling reform argued that Koran could not and should not be written in Latin letters. They feared that the adoption of a Latin alphabet would soon wipe away and bury all past achievements. They also considered the adoption of a Latin alphabet as the adoption of a French alphabet, and they objected to it.

The main objective of those for the spelling reform, however, was to construct a Latin alphabet in line with the structures of the Turkish language. They argued that the Arabic script was not suitable for Turkish. They also maintained that the illiteracy rate was very high due to the difficulty of learning the Arabo-Persian alphabet.

Despite all the debates for and against the spelling reform, the National Assembly (established on 23 April 1920) agreed on 3 November 1928 to carry out the Reform. Soon an 'alphabet mobilisation' was started. Schools were set up to teach the new alphabet; language lessons were broadcast on the radio; Turkish grammar books were published. At the time many sceptics believed that the adoption and correct use of a new alphabet would take many years. Atat�rk, however, argued that the people had to do their best to learn the alphabet so that the literacy rate would increase rapidly. Laws were passed to ensure that companies and public and private institutions used the new alphabet in correspondence. The deadline for the elimination of the Arabo-Persian alphabet was announced to be 1 January 1929. This meant that all the legal documents written after this date would have to be in the new alphabet. Books that had been in use until the Reform were all abolished and books that used the new alphabet were published. The result of the official adoption of the new alphabet and orthography was, as Hildreth (1972:71) states: Whereas, up to 1928, only 9% of the total population were literate, far more men than women, by 1935, the overall literacy rate was 20%, males 30%, females 10%. By 1940, literacy thruout the country was 22%; by 1960, 59% (women 43%, men 75%).... the large gains with modernization are directly attributable to Turkish spelling reform.

(Source)

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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd November 2013 00:54

Was the Turkish language reform a success or catastrophe?

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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd November 2013 00:57

Though related, I apologize for taking off on a tangent in the Muhammad - The Most Popular name Spelling thread.

Insha'Allah, I request that relevant posts be moved here if respected moderators see fit.

JazakAllah khayran

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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd November 2013 02:48

With a language that is pronounced exactly as it is spelled, it is no wonder that the disappearance of an Arabic based Ottoman script spelled certain disaster when it comes to the pronunciation of Latin(ized) Arabic words by Turkish speakers. Save for those who actually learn to read Arabic and Ottoman script (and even then, many learn to read Arabic with a peculiar accent), most Turks don't know the difference when using Turkish in their day-to-day lives.

Where there used to be different Ottoman Arabic letters to represent different sounds, now a few letters have been clumped together to be represented with a single, Latin letter. As an example, I've highlighted the 'h' sound below which is represented with the letter 'h' in Latin(ized) Turkish:

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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd November 2013 04:23

In the case of the letter H

The 'h' sound is not found in Turkish; it comes from other languages. In the case of the letter 'h' and its sound, perhaps this explains the clumping of certain letters together into one sound - 'h' - especially after language reforms.

Prior to that, I have no idea if there was clear differentiation between a soft 'h' and a hard 'h'

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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2014 08:58

SALAM

HOPE YOU ARE IN THE BEST OF HEALTH BY THE GRACE OF ALLAH ALMIGHTY
I AM HOPING TO VISIT TURKEY SOON WITH MY FAMILY
WE NEED SOME INFORMATION ABOUT STAYING IN THE OLD RELIGIOUS PARTS OF TURKEY
WHERE THERE ARE MADRASSAS AND MASJIDS AROUND THE HOTEL
I am from uk
PLS EMAIL ME WITH INFO ON
(Authorizer edit - Emails not allowed, please check forums for any updates)

wassalam
------

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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2014 12:45

sakhawat attari wrote:

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Which city are you planing to stay? I would recommend Istanbul. As far as I know there aren't any madrasas, but in Istanbul everywhere you go, you can find 2 or 3 masjids. Also I'm not quite sure but Eyup is the part where practising families are found.

Any question just ask from here

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Beware! verily there is a piece of flesh in the body of man, which when good, the whole body is good; and when bad, the whold body is bad, and that is the heart.

Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa sallem)

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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2014 15:34

Acacia wrote:

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Canim ablam well about the alphabet, it must be so hard to write in arabic, i think the latin version is better. It must took ages to learn the alphabet.Maybe im wrong.

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 5th February 2014 16:39

A Turkish jamaat is staying near our uni. As Bengali members of the jamaat do not know Turkish, they are translating lectures by a common Tablighee strategy- "grab a keyword and tell yourself".

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