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The effort of Tabligh is not Paan Masala.

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 24th March 2013 20:17
Desi tadka wrote:
"xs11ax" wrote:
"Desi tadka" wrote:
May Allah grant them ease. Aameen.[/quote] ameen. ease and guidance to stick to the sunnah. [quote="Desi tadka"]Thats the point I'm trying to make, wanna learn about tabligh then go the tablighis. Don't go to the Sufi's and don't go the Mufti's until and unless they themlselves have experience in tabligh and dawah.
absolutely agreed. and there is no other group that can surpass tabligh jamaat in experience and results in the field of tabligh. it would be great if all the various groups that work on the different aspects of the deen could work under one mashwera, and apply their particular expertise where and when needed. i believe this was done in the time of moulana ilyas رضي الله عنه where jamaats not only went in khuruj but sometimes were also instructed to spend time in a khanqah. see shaikh, after all this time we have known each other, we CAN agree on some things after all :P may allah protect and guide you in everything. please remember me in your duas.
  What do you say to this before we go further? docs.google.com/file/d/0B5zajTyfeN-BVVBGeEJTTDR2VkU/edit?...


i say it is too much to read as i have other things to do and i seem to have caught some illness since yesterday where i am constantly dizzy and feel disorientated at times.

if you want to discuss some particular things then we can do that and i will read the relevant parts from the link.

however, i have my own experiences which i have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears and i trust them more than i trust third hand reports so forgive me if i do not accept what i read if it is contrary to what i have experienced. if you can convince me otherwise then please do so. i am not closed minded and can accept that i may be wrong in many cases.
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 25th March 2013 09:16

"xs11ax" wrote:
"Desi tadka" wrote:
"xs11ax" wrote:
"Desi tadka" wrote:
May Allah grant them ease. Aameen.[/quote] ameen. ease and guidance to stick to the sunnah. [quote="Desi tadka"]Thats the point I'm trying to make, wanna learn about tabligh then go the tablighis. Don't go to the Sufi's and don't go the Mufti's until and unless they themlselves have experience in tabligh and dawah.
absolutely agreed. and there is no other group that can surpass tabligh jamaat in experience and results in the field of tabligh. it would be great if all the various groups that work on the different aspects of the deen could work under one mashwera, and apply their particular expertise where and when needed. i believe this was done in the time of moulana ilyas رضي الله عنه where jamaats not only went in khuruj but sometimes were also instructed to spend time in a khanqah. see shaikh, after all this time we have known each other, we CAN agree on some things after all :P may allah protect and guide you in everything. please remember me in your duas.
  What do you say to this before we go further? docs.google.com/file/d/0B5zajTyfeN-BVVBGeEJTTDR2VkU/edit?...
i say it is too much to read as i have other things to do and i seem to have caught some illness since yesterday where i am constantly dizzy and feel disorientated at times. if you want to discuss some particular things then we can do that and i will read the relevant parts from the link. however, i have my own experiences which i have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears and i trust them more than i trust third hand reports so forgive me if i do not accept what i read if it is contrary to what i have experienced. if you can convince me otherwise then please do so. i am not closed minded and can accept that i may be wrong in many cases.

As salaamu wa alay kum,

Bismillah.

I'm not saying anything which you (very probably] wouldn't have already come across, this going round in circles advising people in tabligh to go to khanqah's because even Maulana Ilyasji [rh] went is what I'm against.

Let me break it down.

1. Whoever denies that tazkiyah in the past mainly happened thorugh khanqah's is a fool. Maulana Ilyasji [rh] & other top zimmedars were themselves bayt to Mashaiikh.

2. All I wish to make people understand is that the tarteeb of tabligh has grown, evolved over a period of time, so if anyone sticks to the usools of tabligh with steadfastness then he wouldn't be missing out on anything.

---------This is what Qari Tayyib [rh] is also saying in the PDF link I gave you.

---------And Hazrath is not even seen as a Tablighi Zimmedar.

---------Hazrath is the grandson of Maulana Nanotwi [rh].

---------Hazrath is the first principal of Deoband Waqf.

3. If people wish to say tabligh has different forms - then I wish to ask them - why can't tazkiyah have different forms?

4. If people ask if Imam Abu Hanifa went for 3 days and 40 days - I'd like to ask them honestly not mockingly, was

-------Imam Abu Hanifa [rh]

-------Imam Shafi'iee [rh]

-------Imam Ahmed [rh]

-------Imam Malik [rh]

bayt to Shaikhs of Tasawwuf?

-----------------If yes, then who?

------------------------If not, do you wish to say their islah / tazkiyah didn't happen? 

------------------------If their tazkiyah happened, then how did it happen?

5. Mashiikh say for one's complete islah - one needs a Shaikh and stick to what he says...

---------I wish to ask, in the effort of tabligh, all the tarteeb and usools are from the mashwara of Nizamuddin, themselves top Mashaiikh and Ulamah, and across the whole world, the tarteeb is followed, then why do people speak as if this work is run by ignorants?

It can be easily pointed out, the Ulamah / Zimmedaars & Mashaiikh of Nizamuddin have the largest number of Mureeds. 

6. If a mureed sticks to his OWN shaikh and doens't even listen to any other (actually its recommended not to go to a even listen to another Shaikh) - then its said, this is a form of barakah, but if a worker engaged in the work of tabligh sticks with the usools and doesn't go the their type of Mashaiikh - why is he said that he is anti Tasawwuf and MISSING OUT on a part of Deen??!

Why is it not said or at-least subtly implied upon that the Sufi Shaikh's & their mureeds are missing out on a part of Deen [definitely] if they don't do tabligh?

7. When you tashkeel to such mureeds to go in khurooj and do tabligh, they say tabligh has different forms, if you point out to the same people that tazkiyah too can have different forms and point out to millions in the effort of tabligh who have had their islah done - they say that you are anti Tasawwuf??!

--------If someone wishes to say that Tabligh and Tazkiya are different, and just because one work can be done in various forms [ref to Tabligh], it does NOT necessarily mean the other could also be done in different form - then for such a person, I just have to show the tarteeb of tabligh.

8. A young just started madrasah would usually have only Hifz classes but as it grows even studies of Hadith, Ifta, et al is also included - when it was young, it was right to say "Son! Complete your Hifz here and for studies of Hadith, we will to try to get you admitted in Azhar" - yet when that small young madrasah over a period of time includes Hifz, Aalimiyatt, Ifta, etc - would it be fanaticism to say "Son! Complete all your studies here, right from Hifz to Ifta, inshaAllah".

^ The above is just an example - not saying (of-course) to leave in khurooj to study Hadith.   

Wa alaykum as salaam.

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 25th March 2013 13:27
Previous post updated.
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 25th March 2013 16:16

following are my own thoughts based on my own ignorance and inexperience. if i say something that is wrong, contradictive, or just plain stupid then please correct me. i do not mean this to be an argument or debate, but a discussion between brothers which inshallah will go on to create greater unity. i have written it in a rush so please forgive my mistakes and anything that may need clarifying.

 

"Desi tadka" wrote:

As salaamu wa alay kum,

Bismillah.

I'm not saying anything which you (very probably] wouldn't have already come across, this going round in circles advising people in tabligh to go to khanqah's because even Maulana Ilyasji [rh] went is what I'm against.

salaam

from what i have understood from my time in tabligh jamaat, moulana ilyas رضي الله عنه did not even intend to create a seperate movement and tabligh jamaat was a means to motivate oneself and to reach others in order to connect with the masajid/khanqah/ulama/madaris as the common people had gone very far from this and it were only the people who were born into the scholarly families who were connected to the aforementioned. and from what i have understood, the ulama of the time encompassed and carried out all the different aspects of deen when and where needed and this also included jihad/dawah/tabligh/taleem/tazkiyya/tassawuf.

i personally do not feel the different aspects of deen should be separate in any sense and feel that a person should benefit from one or all of them as per his own individual need and aspiration.

 

Let me break it down.

1. Whoever denies that tazkiyah in the past mainly happened thorugh khanqah's is a fool. Maulana Ilyasji [rh] & other top zimmedars were themselves bayt to Mashaiikh.

2. All I wish to make people understand is that the tarteeb of tabligh has grown, evolved over a period of time, so if anyone sticks to the usools of tabligh with steadfastness then he wouldn't be missing out on anything.

---------This is what Qari Tayyib [rh] is also saying in the PDF link I gave you.

---------And Hazrath is not even seen as a Tablighi Zimmedar.

---------Hazrath is the grandson of Maulana Nanotwi [rh].

---------Hazrath is the first principal of Deoband Waqf.

usools are one thing and ground realities are completely different. i cannot provide you any written testament for this, but the attitude against other departments of deen a person picks up after spending considerable time in tabligh jamaat is obvious in a lot of cases. this i have seen and experienced with my own eyes and i was also guilty of this at one time. but saying that, this same attitude is found in all the other different departments of deen such as in the jihadi/tassawuf/madaris sectors, but as we are talking about tabligh jamaat, i am addressing tabligh jamaat. one blatant attitude is the derision that many tablighis (including myself at one time) display against those who are involved in the department of jihad, even up to the point that they have actually given information to the intelligence services regarding people who are involved in jihad. i know this is not part of the usool. but it is definitely part of the 'culture' of tabligh and is mainly found in purana sathis especially after performing 4 months in india/pakistan.

3. If people wish to say tabligh has different forms - then I wish to ask them - why can't tazkiyah have different forms?

i agree with this. however, tassawuf is not just about tazkiyyah, but it is also about connecting onself both spiritually and physically to a shaikh who has been trained in the application of tassawuf through many years of spending time and giving service to his own shaikh stretching back through the ages to the Prophet (saw). i am not of the opinion that everyone should be bayt to a shaikh ( i am also not bayt), but you can only gain so much through tabligh jamaat and can gain more by connecting oneself to a shaikh, and likewise you can only gain so much from a shaikh and benefit more by actually going out in khurooj and physically making sacrifices. the mureeds of the past put what they learnt from their shaikh into practice, and today in my opinion the best way to do this is by going out in khurooj and specifically by going out in tabligh jamaat

 

4. If people ask if Imam Abu Hanifa went for 3 days and 40 days - I'd like to ask them honestly not mockingly, was

-------Imam Abu Hanifa [rh]

-------Imam Shafi'iee [rh]

-------Imam Ahmed [rh]

-------Imam Malik [rh]

bayt to Shaikhs of Tasawwuf?

-----------------If yes, then who?

------------------------If not, do you wish to say their islah / tazkiyah didn't happen? 

------------------------If their tazkiyah happened, then how did it happen?

only a fool would make an issue out of the tarteeb of tabligh jamaat and out of the 4 months/40 days/ 3 days/ 2.5 hours a day tarteeb. such people do not even deserve a response.

 

5. Mashiikh say for one's complete islah - one needs a Shaikh and stick to what he says...

---------I wish to ask, in the effort of tabligh, all the tarteeb and usools are from the mashwara of Nizamuddin, themselves top Mashaiikh and Ulamah, and across the whole world, the tarteeb is followed, then why do people speak as if this work is run by ignorants?

nowadays it is no longer the case where all the marakaz of the world stick to the mashwera and guidance of nizammuddin. even within a small country like UK the district marakaz are making their own mashwera and leaving the guidance of dewsbury markaz.. even within dewsbury markaz itself there are those who wish to do things their own way. this is not coming from me. this is from a friend who is very close to hafez patel. maybe things are not the same in the other marakaz of the world, but in dewsbury markaz the shura is run by ignorants and the ulama are given a back seat. and yes i do call them ignorants as i have had first hand experience of them.

It can be easily pointed out, the Ulamah / Zimmedaars & Mashaiikh of Nizamuddin have the largest number of Mureeds. 

6. If a mureed sticks to his OWN shaikh and doens't even listen to any other (actually its recommended not to go to a even listen to another Shaikh) - then its said, this is a form of barakah, but if a worker engaged in the work of tabligh sticks with the usools and doesn't go the their type of Mashaiikh - why is he said that he is anti Tasawwuf and MISSING OUT on a part of Deen??!

the same can be said to those who do not go out in jamaat - who do not do jihad - who do not learn ilm. they are all missing out on a part of deen. however, some may be more suited to one part of deen and some more suited to another. and in some areas there may be more requirement for one part of deen  than the other. so if someone sticks to his own personal department of deen then there is no blame inshallah. but if he then goes on to discourage others from other aspects of deen or thinks of his own personal department as better than the other then he is depriving his ownself and maybe others. this problem is not just with some tablighis but is also present within other people of other groups and deeni departments. it is true that tablighis bare the brunt of it, probably biggest they are the largest and more outstanding group than the others.

 

Why is it not said or at-least subtly implied upon that the Sufi Shaikh's & their mureeds are missing out on a part of Deen [definitely] if they don't do tabligh?

7. When you tashkeel to such mureeds to go in khurooj and do tabligh, they say tabligh has different forms, if you point out to the same people that tazkiyah too can have different forms and point out to millions in the effort of tabligh who have had their islah done - they say that you are anti Tasawwuf??!

from experience i have found that some sufis are anti tabligh and anti jihad. and some tablighis are anti tassawuf and anti jihad. so this problem is found everywhere.

--------If someone wishes to say that Tabligh and Tazkiya are different, and just because one work can be done in various forms [ref to Tabligh], it does NOT necessarily mean the other could also be done in different form - then for such a person, I just have to show the tarteeb of tabligh.

8. A young just started madrasah would usually have only Hifz classes but as it grows even studies of Hadith, Ifta, et al is also included - when it was young, it was right to say "Son! Complete your Hifz here and for studies of Hadith, we will to try to get you admitted in Azhar" - yet when that small young madrasah over a period of time includes Hifz, Aalimiyatt, Ifta, etc - would it be fanaticism to say "Son! Complete all your studies here, right from Hifz to Ifta, inshaAllah".

^ The above is just an example - not saying (of-course) to leave in khurooj to study Hadith.   

but everything cannot be completed in tabligh jamaat. jihad cannot be completed in tabligh jamaat in the same way jihad cannot be completed in tassawuf. so for both to progress to jihad they need to leave their respective departments and proceed to the other department.

Wa alaykum as salaam.

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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 25th March 2013 16:46

"xs11ax" wrote:

following are my own thoughts based on my own ignorance and inexperience. if i say something that is wrong, contradictive, or just plain stupid then please correct me. i do not mean this to be an argument or debate, but a discussion between brothers which inshallah will go on to create greater unity. i have written it in a rush so please forgive my mistakes and anything that may need clarifying.

 

"Desi tadka" wrote:

As salaamu wa alay kum,

Bismillah.

I'm not saying anything which you (very probably] wouldn't have already come across, this going round in circles advising people in tabligh to go to khanqah's because even Maulana Ilyasji [rh] went is what I'm against.

salaam

from what i have understood from my time in tabligh jamaat, moulana ilyas رضي الله عنه did not even intend to create a seperate movement and tabligh jamaat was a means to motivate oneself and to reach others in order to connect with the masajid/khanqah/ulama/madaris as the common people had gone very far from this and it were only the people who were born into the scholarly families who were connected to the aforementioned. and from what i have understood, the ulama of the time encompassed and carried out all the different aspects of deen when and where needed and this also included jihad/dawah/tabligh/taleem/tazkiyya/tassawuf.

i personally do not feel the different aspects of deen should be separate in any sense and feel that a person should benefit from one or all of them as per his own individual need and aspiration.

 

Let me break it down.

1. Whoever denies that tazkiyah in the past mainly happened thorugh khanqah's is a fool. Maulana Ilyasji [rh] & other top zimmedars were themselves bayt to Mashaiikh.

2. All I wish to make people understand is that the tarteeb of tabligh has grown, evolved over a period of time, so if anyone sticks to the usools of tabligh with steadfastness then he wouldn't be missing out on anything.

---------This is what Qari Tayyib [rh] is also saying in the PDF link I gave you.

---------And Hazrath is not even seen as a Tablighi Zimmedar.

---------Hazrath is the grandson of Maulana Nanotwi [rh].

---------Hazrath is the first principal of Deoband Waqf.

usools are one thing and ground realities are completely different. i cannot provide you any written testament for this, but the attitude against other departments of deen a person picks up after spending considerable time in tabligh jamaat is obvious in a lot of cases. this i have seen and experienced with my own eyes and i was also guilty of this at one time. but saying that, this same attitude is found in all the other different departments of deen such as in the jihadi/tassawuf/madaris sectors, but as we are talking about tabligh jamaat, i am addressing tabligh jamaat. one blatant attitude is the derision that many tablighis (including myself at one time) display against those who are involved in the department of jihad, even up to the point that they have actually given information to the intelligence services regarding people who are involved in jihad. i know this is not part of the usool. but it is definitely part of the 'culture' of tabligh and is mainly found in purana sathis especially after performing 4 months in india/pakistan.

3. If people wish to say tabligh has different forms - then I wish to ask them - why can't tazkiyah have different forms?

i agree with this. however, tassawuf is not just about tazkiyyah, but it is also about connecting onself both spiritually and physically to a shaikh who has been trained in the application of tassawuf through many years of spending time and giving service to his own shaikh stretching back through the ages to the Prophet (saw). i am not of the opinion that everyone should be bayt to a shaikh ( i am also not bayt), but you can only gain so much through tabligh jamaat and can gain more by connecting oneself to a shaikh, and likewise you can only gain so much from a shaikh and benefit more by actually going out in khurooj and physically making sacrifices. the mureeds of the past put what they learnt from their shaikh into practice, and today in my opinion the best way to do this is by going out in khurooj and specifically by going out in tabligh jamaat

 

4. If people ask if Imam Abu Hanifa went for 3 days and 40 days - I'd like to ask them honestly not mockingly, was

-------Imam Abu Hanifa [rh]

-------Imam Shafi'iee [rh]

-------Imam Ahmed [rh]

-------Imam Malik [rh]

bayt to Shaikhs of Tasawwuf?

-----------------If yes, then who?

------------------------If not, do you wish to say their islah / tazkiyah didn't happen? 

------------------------If their tazkiyah happened, then how did it happen?

only a fool would make an issue out of the tarteeb of tabligh jamaat and out of the 4 months/40 days/ 3 days/ 2.5 hours a day tarteeb. such people do not even deserve a response.

 

5. Mashiikh say for one's complete islah - one needs a Shaikh and stick to what he says...

---------I wish to ask, in the effort of tabligh, all the tarteeb and usools are from the mashwara of Nizamuddin, themselves top Mashaiikh and Ulamah, and across the whole world, the tarteeb is followed, then why do people speak as if this work is run by ignorants?

nowadays it is no longer the case where all the marakaz of the world stick to the mashwera and guidance of nizammuddin. even within a small country like UK the district marakaz are making their own mashwera and leaving the guidance of dewsbury markaz.. even within dewsbury markaz itself there are those who wish to do things their own way. this is not coming from me. this is from a friend who is very close to hafez patel. maybe things are not the same in the other marakaz of the world, but in dewsbury markaz the shura is run by ignorants and the ulama are given a back seat. and yes i do call them ignorants as i have had first hand experience of them.

It can be easily pointed out, the Ulamah / Zimmedaars & Mashaiikh of Nizamuddin have the largest number of Mureeds. 

6. If a mureed sticks to his OWN shaikh and doens't even listen to any other (actually its recommended not to go to a even listen to another Shaikh) - then its said, this is a form of barakah, but if a worker engaged in the work of tabligh sticks with the usools and doesn't go the their type of Mashaiikh - why is he said that he is anti Tasawwuf and MISSING OUT on a part of Deen??!

the same can be said to those who do not go out in jamaat - who do not do jihad - who do not learn ilm. they are all missing out on a part of deen. however, some may be more suited to one part of deen and some more suited to another. and in some areas there may be more requirement for one part of deen  than the other. so if someone sticks to his own personal department of deen then there is no blame inshallah. but if he then goes on to discourage others from other aspects of deen or thinks of his own personal department as better than the other then he is depriving his ownself and maybe others. this problem is not just with some tablighis but is also present within other people of other groups and deeni departments. it is true that tablighis bare the brunt of it, probably biggest they are the largest and more outstanding group than the others.

 

Why is it not said or at-least subtly implied upon that the Sufi Shaikh's & their mureeds are missing out on a part of Deen [definitely] if they don't do tabligh?

7. When you tashkeel to such mureeds to go in khurooj and do tabligh, they say tabligh has different forms, if you point out to the same people that tazkiyah too can have different forms and point out to millions in the effort of tabligh who have had their islah done - they say that you are anti Tasawwuf??!

from experience i have found that some sufis are anti tabligh and anti jihad. and some tablighis are anti tassawuf and anti jihad. so this problem is found everywhere.

--------If someone wishes to say that Tabligh and Tazkiya are different, and just because one work can be done in various forms [ref to Tabligh], it does NOT necessarily mean the other could also be done in different form - then for such a person, I just have to show the tarteeb of tabligh.

8. A young just started madrasah would usually have only Hifz classes but as it grows even studies of Hadith, Ifta, et al is also included - when it was young, it was right to say "Son! Complete your Hifz here and for studies of Hadith, we will to try to get you admitted in Azhar" - yet when that small young madrasah over a period of time includes Hifz, Aalimiyatt, Ifta, etc - would it be fanaticism to say "Son! Complete all your studies here, right from Hifz to Ifta, inshaAllah".

^ The above is just an example - not saying (of-course) to leave in khurooj to study Hadith.   

but everything cannot be completed in tabligh jamaat. jihad cannot be completed in tabligh jamaat in the same way jihad cannot be completed in tassawuf. so for both to progress to jihad they need to leave their respective departments and proceed to the other department.

Wa alaykum as salaam.

Fair enough.

This response needs an all new thread.

We will carry this further, but later.

Until then, lets keep this advice in mind. 

“Disputation in the Religion fosters self-display,
does away with the light of the heart and hardens it, and
bequeaths aimless wandering.” - Imaam Malik [rh]

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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 25th March 2013 17:13
Guys, can we try cutting down on the "QUOTES" the pages look too big. If you want to quote, please cut it down a little. Jazakallahu Khair.
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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 26th March 2013 18:15

"abu mohammed" wrote:
Guys, can we try cutting down on the "QUOTES" the pages look too big. If you want to quote, please cut it down a little. Jazakallahu Khair.

 

Noted. InshaAllah will take care in future.

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