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Islamic Dates and the Moon

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#46 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 03:50
salam
here in birmingham its deoband and salafi mosques that follow saudi,but the bralavi dont,so i guess they wont be doing eid on tuesday then.
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#47 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 09:38
abu mohammed wrote:
We seem to be going round in circles here, just like Adibgnail. We all know what his conclusion was, A BIG DNIAL.

The guest is adamant not to budge. Brother or sister please, be careful. The truth is out there and it seems you want to stick to falsehood in this case. And to be honest it is attitudes like this that we can't surpass the salafi.

I'm with brother Muadh 100%.


You are looking for any means necessary to justify the ulama you are following.

Like I said, "Alaa Bhalaa, Gardan e Mullah".
(This phrase is from a lecture by Shaykh Riyadhul Haq)


assalaamu 'alaykum
Bismillah
i'm sorry but i dont agree with the above comments respected brother abu mohammad. Please dont take this as an argument but i would like to try and explain as i feel you are misunderstanding what he/she is trying to say.

It is not a denial of the wifaq stand.

In fact the way i look at is that by your (and many others) saying he/she "wants to stick to falsehood" you are saying every single one of the scholars who follow saudi are on open falsehood and are leading people to falsehood. All he/she is saying is that they (the scholars who have decide to follow saudi) are trustworthy , God-fearing, reliable scholars and there must be a reason behind their stand. I dont think they would do so simply to to oppose wifaq. I simply cannot accept that these pious scholars can stoop to that.

Now if anyone does not agree (with either side) they are free to follow the other group of scholars. Its as simple as that. Do you see what I mean? There is no need for all this argument and counter argument between two sides. I leave with a request to everyone to respect both sides and to end this discussion as it does more harm than good.

Personally i'm fine with both sides....the group of scholars i have followed for many years (remember i'm a lot older than all of you) are God-fearing, pious, trustworthy and highly respected. If today they were to say, no we do not follow saudi anymore, I would prepare my 'eid accordingly without a second's thought and those of my family and friends wwho follow the other side, i wish them 'eid sa'eed accordingly. I simply do not understand this constant uproar and i would not even participate is these threads if i did not feel strongly that there is no need for it and that it harms us all...i apologise for the rather lenghthy post and "lecture" as my grandkids would term it! Requesting du'a.

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#48 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 09:49
Jazakallah sister. Acknowledged. However my implications are not to accuse any one, rather pointing out the errors that have been highlighted and the fact that nothing has been done about it.

When you know the truth why continue to accept falsehood.

There are many respectful Ulama whom we all love and respect, but at the end of the day, we dont accept everything from them. I do not wish to name names, but there are certain Ulama who are causing pain not just to other Ulama but to laymen like myself. They are fully aware of the truth (I imagine) but beat around the bush to continue with what they do. Total denial, total mis-representation, total mockery.

I follow a the Hanafi school but I reject many of the practices of contemporary Hanafi scholars, yet I still take what is good from them and REJECT (with proof) what in my belief is incorrect.

As a Hanafi, brought up in a Barelwi family, I grew up learning so much about the falsehood we were practicing. What was I supposed to do continue because the scholars are respectfull scholars. No, I rejected it because it felt wrong. Alhumdulillah we no longer have a Barelwi belief in our family. Rather we CHANGED our ways and got back on track. Till today I continue to instantly reject a practice of mine if I come to understand it as wrong.

Unfortunately, we are stuck with our Mosque where ever we are, we have to follow their timetable but that does not mean we reject the truth. If we dont make any noise today, tomorrow our kids will grow up believing their parents were followers and acceptors of falsehood.

I disagree with certain Ulama, and I let my close ones know about it and explain why. I cant be two faced about it.
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#49 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 10:36

"Anonymous" wrote:
Salam All I want to say is that I think it is a difference of opinion because many ulama (the ones from the darul-ulooms in uk) who follow saudi are 1) god-fearing i.e taqwa 2) knowledgeable 3) trustable i.e not liars etc If they thought that following saudi was wrong. Why would these ulama 1) Follow Saudi. 2) Allow so many people to be deceived and follow Saudi. so for a laymen who can't understand the issue can
"Anonymous" wrote:
· Simply place your trust in your Alim of trustand abide by his decision. askimam . org

Asslamo Allaikum,

After 10+ Years of discussions I have learnt a few things:

  1. The issue is very simple. If the moon is NOT BORN, it CANNOT be SEEN! If the sky is clear Hanafi Madhab requires a large group of people to testify BECAUSE it is common sense that many people will sight the moon.
  2. People very clear understand that point but they claim that they don’t understand it because:

    1. It will make them confront the situation with Ulama-e-Kiraam
    2. It will make them “think”

So its safer for them not to do this and they stick to “I don’t understand” .

  • It isn’t difficult to understand the simple fact that if the moon is NOT THERE it CANNOT be seen.
  • It isn’t difficult to understand that Ulamah of Deoband have NEVER followed Saudia in India/Pakistan
  • It isn’t difficult to understand that Ulamah of Deoband have NEVER recommended following Saudia
  • It isn’t difficult to understand that NO OTHER Deobandi community in the world follow Saudia
  • It isn’t difficult to understand that “almost” every major Deobandi Darul-uloom and Mufti in the world has given a Fatwa AGAINST following Saudia in UK.

But people are scared because they believe by confronting these facts “they are disrespecting their Shaykh or their Maulana”.

This fear makes them say OVER & OVER again, two things:

  1. There are Ulamah on both sides.
  2. I don’t understand these moon issues because its complex.

There are “NO” major Ulamah supporting this. Majority of Ulamah including Shaykh (Maulana) Saleem Dhorat (HA), Shaykh (Maulana) Bilal (HA), Shaykh (Maulana) Riyadhul-Haq (HA) ARE AGAINST following Saudia and know very well that its an error! The pressure and blackmailing from “some others” prevents them adopting this position. Our Ulamah-e-Kiraam are coerced and forced into this position by “some others”.

What happened in Batley 2 years ago cost Shaykh (Mufti) Yusuf Sacha (HA) one of the most senior Muftees in UK his job, his reputation and other Ulamah with him...

Last year similar issues with Shaykh (Maulana) Saleem Dhorat (HA), no details necessary!

A few years ago it was Shaykh (Maulana) Riyadhul-Haq (HA), no details necessary!

The problem is that these Mashaykh are very nice people and they don’t want to create a problem and Tassawuff itself believes in “don’t rock the boat” scenario.

Shaykh (Mufti) Yusuf Sacha (HA) was the FIRST ONE to publicly ditch Darul-uloom Dewsbury and break away.

Next in line is probably Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Bilal Saheb (HA) and then sooner or later it will be Shaykh (Maulana) Saleem Dhorat (HA) as he has already broken away on Fajar & Esha Salah issue and took the wrath of Gujrati community in Leicester about his Esha times!

These Ulamah know that credibility of Ulamah is on the line, for the time being laymen are simply saying “I don’t understand this and I follow Ulamah” but many are confronting the issue and forced to “think” about it.

Majority of people in UK don’t follow Saudia anymore, apart from Salafees (who will NEVER break away) its Deobandees who are sticking to it.

Few things will happen in the future:

  1. Saudia will be FORCED to correct itself. You have no idea how much pressure they are under from Arabs in the Middle-East
  2. Pressure on NOT following Saudia will become unbearable as technology will spread this matter far wand wide so laymen will (and are) breaking away. So far it has reached a point where no Mashaykh prevent their Mureeds from “not following Saudia”.
  3. More Ulamah will defect. The Gujrati community is very “communal” in their approach so the “Batley effect” will occur in other cities across UK.

The only Ulamah who will stick to Saudia amongst Deobandees till death are “Pakistani Ulamah” and I don’t want to go into it. Gujrati Ulamah & Mashaykh will break away from this sooner or later one by one, trust me.

Gujrati Ulamah and their Darul-ulooms (in India or UK) don’t have the intrinsic links with Saudia as Pakistanees do so its mere “communal spirit” which is holding them to this position e.g. we have always done it, the whole community does it, Hazrat said this, Shaykh does this etc etc etc...

THIS isn't an issue of Fiqh or Shariah, its an issue of Politics!

You can print it and read this post when it happens.





 

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#50 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 11:05

Asslamo Allaikum,

Last year I was speaking to a young brother and we were discussing "Pro-Active" and Academically gifted deobandi Ulamah and I made the point when you look at them, you will see 95% following wifaq (or agreeing with it) and against Saudi sighting even when they are outside of UK.

  • Khulafa of Shaykh (Hakeem Akhtar Saheb (HA)) and Mashaykh of their Silsila: Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Khulafa of Shaykh (Zulfiqar Naqshbandi (HA)) and Mashaykh of their Silsila: Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Khulafa of Shaykh (Maulana Hasan Tai (HA)) and Mashaykh of their Silsila: Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Khulafa & Ulamah of Shaykh (Mufti Ebrahim Desai(HA)) and all South African Ulamah: Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • American Ulamah & deobandees: 100% Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Canadian Ulamah & deobandees: 100% Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Shaykhul-Hadeeth Maulana Bilal Saheb (HA), students, Khulafa and people in his Silsila: Pro-Wifaq
  • Shaykh (Maulana) Abu Yusuf Riyadhul-Haq (HA): Pro-Wifaq
  • Shaykh (Maulana) Saleem Dhorat (HA): Pro-Wifaq
  • Shaykhul-Hadeeth Maulana Iqbal Rangooni Saheb (HA): Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Shaykh (Mufti) Yusuf Sacha (HA): Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Ulamah of Batley: Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Shaykh (Maulana) Yakuq Wasmi (HA): Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • Shaykh (Mufti) Yusuf Danke (HA)/Croydon: Wifaq and Anti-Saudi Sighting
  • And most importantly, 95+% of all new deobandi graduates.

Off course I have left many names out but if you are connected with or Bay't to any of the Mashaykh (ones in RED) and personally close to them, you are free to engage them and they will tell you their position and personal inclination very clearly. Publicly they may say "Ulamah on both sides so follow your Mosque, which is fair enough for laymen"

Hazrat (Maulana) Bilal Saheb will off course tell you in public and private the same thing! :-)

Jazakullah Khairun

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#51 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 12:12
abu mohammed wrote:
Jazakallah sister. Acknowledged. However my implications are not to accuse any one, rather pointing out the errors that have been highlighted and the fact that nothing has been done about it.

When you know the truth why continue to accept falsehood.

There are many respectful Ulama whom we all love and respect, but at the end of the day, we dont accept everything from them. I do not wish to name names, but there are certain Ulama who are causing pain not just to other Ulama but to laymen like myself. They are fully aware of the truth (I imagine) but beat around the bush to continue with what they do. Total denial, total mis-representation, total mockery.

I follow a the Hanafi school but I reject many of the practices of contemporary Hanafi scholars, yet I still take what is good from them and REJECT (with proof) what in my belief is incorrect.

As a Hanafi, brought up in a Barelwi family, I grew up learning so much about the falsehood we were practicing. What was I supposed to do continue because the scholars are respectfull scholars. No, I rejected it because it felt wrong. Alhumdulillah we no longer have a Barelwi belief in our family. Rather we CHANGED our ways and got back on track. Till today I continue to instantly reject a practice of mine if I come to understand it as wrong.

Unfortunately, we are stuck with our Mosque where ever we are, we have to follow their timetable but that does not mean we reject the truth. If we dont make any noise today, tomorrow our kids will grow up believing their parents were followers and acceptors of falsehood.

I disagree with certain Ulama, and I let my close ones know about it and explain why. I cant be two faced about it.


bro abu mohammad, i know where you're coming from. You came from a barelwi background and i came from a background where many bid'aat were practiced due to living with hindus in india (I think)...alhamdulillah i too dissected each practice and confirmed with Ulama before continuing anything...through the fadl of Allah our family and friend cirlce now avoiid all these practices.

Problem is bro, personally I do not feel i am following falsehood. I have read the post by bro muadh regarding the hizbul ulama, now i didnt even know who they were until very recently. The Ulama my heart goes with and has always gone with are the ones I'm still comfortable with and they all (for whatever reason) opt to follow saudi and as i said if they change their mind then so will i..no big deal. These are not any ordinary, wrong doing scholars we're talking about bro....i'm totally at peace about it - just i'm fine about those who follow the wiqaf.
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#52 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 13:00

"ummi taalib" wrote:
"abu mohammed" wrote:
Jazakallah sister. Acknowledged. However my implications are not to accuse any one, rather pointing out the errors that have been highlighted and the fact that nothing has been done about it. When you know the truth why continue to accept falsehood. There are many respectful Ulama whom we all love and respect, but at the end of the day, we dont accept everything from them. I do not wish to name names, but there are certain Ulama who are causing pain not just to other Ulama but to laymen like myself. They are fully aware of the truth (I imagine) but beat around the bush to continue with what they do. Total denial, total mis-representation, total mockery. I follow a the Hanafi school but I reject many of the practices of contemporary Hanafi scholars, yet I still take what is good from them and REJECT (with proof) what in my belief is incorrect. As a Hanafi, brought up in a Barelwi family, I grew up learning so much about the falsehood we were practicing. What was I supposed to do continue because the scholars are respectfull scholars. No, I rejected it because it felt wrong. Alhumdulillah we no longer have a Barelwi belief in our family. Rather we CHANGED our ways and got back on track. Till today I continue to instantly reject a practice of mine if I come to understand it as wrong. Unfortunately, we are stuck with our Mosque where ever we are, we have to follow their timetable but that does not mean we reject the truth. If we dont make any noise today, tomorrow our kids will grow up believing their parents were followers and acceptors of falsehood. I disagree with certain Ulama, and I let my close ones know about it and explain why. I cant be two faced about it.
bro abu mohammad, i know where you're coming from. You came from a barelwi background and i came from a background where many bid'aat were practiced due to living with hindus in india (I think)...alhamdulillah i too dissected each practice and confirmed with Ulama before continuing anything...through the fadl of Allah our family and friend cirlce now avoiid all these practices. Problem is bro, personally I do not feel i am following falsehood. I have read the post by bro muadh regarding the hizbul ulama, now i didnt even know who they were until very recently. The Ulama my heart goes with and has always gone with are the ones I'm still comfortable with and they all (for whatever reason) opt to follow saudi and as i said if they change their mind then so will i..no big deal. These are not any ordinary, wrong doing scholars we're talking about bro....i'm totally at peace about it - just i'm fine about those who follow the wiqaf.

Asslamo Allaikum,

You are REJECTING the unanimous opinion of Major Ulamah and Deobandi institues around the world and you are comforting your mind at ease "by saying I am following Ulamah".

And that’s because psychologically you don’t want to confront the question, “Why is my Shaykh rejecting all these Fatwaas?”

Off course you won't admit it but the fact is you are tossing aside a unified position based on "politics".

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#53 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 13:00
I understand every bodies point ,so my next post, if possible, will be so simple to understand and inshaAllah highlight why and why not follow certain rulings.
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#54 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 13:05
Muadh_Khan wrote:
Asslamo Allaikum, You are REJECTING the unanimous opinion of Major Ulamah and Deobandi institues around the world and you are comforting your mind at ease "by saying I am following Ulamah". And that’s because psychologically you don’t want to confront the question, “Why is my Shaykh rejecting all these Fatwaas?” Off course you won't admit it but the fact is you are tossing aside a unified position based on "politics".


wa'alaykumus salaam brother Muadh
no ifs and buts bro muadh, simple matter of the fact is i have faith in the Ulama i follow, I do not accept they are of those who compromise a deeni matter by being pressured, coerced, forced or blackmailed. This is tantamount to saying they're hypocritical in which case the whole of deen which they teach and propagate falls apart.

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#55 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 13:09

"abu mohammed" wrote:
I understand every bodies point ,so my next post, if possible, will be so simple to understand and inshaAllah highlight why and why not follow certain rulings.

Asslamo Allaikum,

Done push this because some of these Muslims are extremely nice people and what they are trying to do is “not to be in the wrong and blame any side” and we should respect that.

We went to Shaykh (Maulana) Saleem Dhorat’s Academy and discussed the matter with Mufti ABC and he was thinking along similar lines.

As a laymen I understand Aap’s stance and “technically” when she meets Allah (SWT) she is absolved if she says, “I followed Ulamah”. She has secured her religion, if she is sinecere and we can't doubt the sincerity of a Muslim.

Her Secondary responsibility is to assist in solving the situation in UK and that depends on her understanding and Taqwa.

All we can do is to highlight matters and make duas.

It is  a monumental achievement that they have realised the Hizbul-Ulamah and Maulana Miftaahi (HA) are lying and slandering Ulamah and Mashaykh in order to peddle this “Pro-Saudia” stance!

Their next graduation would be to understand that, "They are falling out of Taqleed of Hanafi Madhab by following Saudia"

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#56 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 13:13

"ummi taalib" wrote:
"Muadh_Khan" wrote:
Asslamo Allaikum, You are REJECTING the unanimous opinion of Major Ulamah and Deobandi institues around the world and you are comforting your mind at ease "by saying I am following Ulamah". And that’s because psychologically you don’t want to confront the question, “Why is my Shaykh rejecting all these Fatwaas?” Off course you won't admit it but the fact is you are tossing aside a unified position based on "politics".
wa'alaykumus salaam brother Muadh no ifs and buts bro muadh, simple matter of the fact is i have faith in the Ulama i follow, I do not accept they are of those who compromise a deeni matter by being pressured, coerced, forced or blackmailed. This is tantamount to saying they're hypocritical in which case the whole of deen which they teach and propagate falls apart.

Asslamo Allaikum,

You are jumping the gun!

I didn't say that they are insincere and hypocritical by being coerced and forced into this position. This is a discussion of Fiqh and they are relenting due to a “Fiqh position” and if they didn’t see the “get out clause” they wouldn’t!

Make dua for me on the day when you do discover what’s happening behind the scenes because its clear that you don’t.

Its clear that you don't know what Shaykh (Maulana) Saleem Dhorat Saheb (HA) is going through.

Jazakullah Khairun

 

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#57 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 16:35
THIS IS THE ISLAMIC NEW MOON:



THIS IS WHAT WE NEED TO SEE TO START THE NEW MOON.


THIS IS THE ASTRONOMICAL NEW MOON:



HOW CAN THIS BE USED TO START A NEW MONTH?


Saudi Arabia, in the past have announced to the world that the NEW MOON has been born. The Astronomical New Moon. They make announcements when it is not even possible to view the moon, forget the Hilal.

If Ulama are following the Astronomical New Moon, the seriously need to re-think.

I will assume they arent aware of this (highly unlikely) and give them the benefit of doubt.




Crescent New Moon vs. Astronomical New Moon

Many people have been led astray by the inaccurate use in modern languages of the term "New Moon". Modern astronomers adopted this otherwise unused term, which had always referred to the first visible sliver, and used it to refer to conjunction (when the Moon passes between the Earth and the Sun, at which time it is not visible). The astronomers soon realized that the inaccurate use of "New Moon" to refer to conjunction would lead to confusion so to be more accurate scientists now distinguish between "Astronomical New Moon" and "Crescent New Moon". "Astronomical New Moon" means New Moon as the term is used by astronomers, i.e. conjunction. In contrast, "Crescent New Moon" uses the term in the original meaning of the first visible sliver.

Even the Jews dont accept the Astronomical New Moon as it is wrong.
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#58 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 17:03


Do you see when the Moon is ALL black. This is the Astronomical New Moon. Try to get a glimpse of the Hilal, it is different.
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#59 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 17:21
assalaamu 'alaykum ww
jazakumullah both of you for your concern, may Allah accept it as such...I'll be honest, i find this too distressing. I have to leave and ask forgiveness for everything that could have caused hurt.... and as i said when the masjids/organisations/Ulama i have faith in change their minds i have no probs with any of this. Requesting du'a
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#60 [Permalink] Posted on 25th August 2011 17:30

"ummi taalib" wrote:
assalaamu 'alaykum ww jazakumullah both of you for your concern, may Allah accept it as such...I'll be honest, i find this too distressing. I have to leave and ask forgiveness for everything that could have caused hurt.... and as i said when the masjids/organisations/Ulama i have faith in change their minds i have no probs with any of this. Requesting du'a

It's ok sister. We are not here to cause anyone any harm, we want to highlight issues that affect us all.On your last point: if your Ulama went HFA instead of HMC what would you do?Don't worry, I am not waiting for an sewer, just something to think about.
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