Martial Arts

London

27,480

Brother

9,579

#16 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 01:21

Images or videos (media) with people (eyes) is simply not permitted on muftisays.com public section to respect all opinions. If the video is beneficial, please convert it to audio format and repost. See this topic for help on video conversion to audio.

Haven't watched the video yet, but grappling will always win in my opinion. Just that wing chun has it's fierce self defense from a small persons point of view

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

Unspecified

3,243

Brother

2,561

#17 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 01:55

abu mohammed wrote:

View original post

i took a few wing chun classes in the pass and read up on its application. i just cant understand how it would work even against a basic boxer. basic wing chun is taught as a 'soft style' of martial arts and use the principle of defending a persons centre line from the forehead to the groin. their fighting stance is to extend open hands towards the opponent. a quick cross strike from a boxer can easily break the extended fingers of the wing chun opponent. which is exactly what happened to me lol. i was messing about with a friend who was throwing closed fist punches towards me. he is much smaller and inexperienced so i was just slapping his strikes away with an open hand. he punched my open hand and broke my finger. i have a knuckle 'missing' on my left hand as a consequence.

i know about the argument that wing chun is for smaller people and in the past (when i was a kid trying to find a master who could teach me the 'dim mak' (death touch) lol!) i read that wing chun was developed by a chinese woman, for women - but i just cant get my head around it. imagine a naturally smaller woman extending her palms out in a fighting stance against a naturally bigger, bulkier man. how would that work? the man would just grab the woman by the wrists and that would be the end of that!

women can also learn hard striking and grappling styles the same as men. they will never be as good as men, but with hard work and dedication they will easily be able to defend themselves against untrained or lesser trained men.

i am not writing this to refute or argue against anyone. i just dont want my fellow muslims to waste their hard work and money and be deluded about their capabilities. if i had followed this advice when i was a kid then i would have benefited a lot more myself. unfortunately i was also of the mindset that 'deadly' oriental martial arts are the best and that sifus/senseis dont fight or spar because they dont want to kill anyone.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

xs11ax

London

27,480

Brother

9,579

#18 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 03:51

Anyone can be sloppy and they would pay the price. Each individual has his or her own strengths and weaknesses.

If you train and fight by the rules, you will most likely get battered. But if you fight with no rules and train that way, you have a better chance, just as been mentioned by everyone else.

I use wing chun but not in the traditional way. In fact I forgot almost everything. But when it comes to the crunch, by the will of Allah, I would be able to defend myself to the end. My advantages are the short range fast power punches. I can punch a brick wall ten times in less than ten seconds with more power than a boxer would be able to throw five punches. So if I had to get upclose, it would be to my benefit unless the other guy was a grappler. boxers have power in their arms, so I would in effect attack the arms more than the body to weaken them and then go for the face and body.

We had a karate black belt in college....forget that, no point.

We had a kickboxing teacher in my class in college, he was very good. He had all the moves and all the fancy kicks etc, but he could not get close enough to me because by the time he finished his spinning around or jumping, I would have already hit him. Not because I was small (in not small, 5' 11") he was smaller than me, but because he was too busy making his move. He could never understand why I was able to him with minimal movement and power.

At the end of the day, it's down to each individual. I could do the splits (back then) but i never really saw the need for it when fighting because it would take too long to make the move, I could get hit trying the moves or hit in a flash with no fancy moves.

These guys you mention who are hooligans etc, what do they have? Nothing, they are fearless, that's what wins them the fight or gives them the courage. And most of the times, they are out of their heads anyway.

If we teach the Muslims to be fearless of everything and anything except Allah, than they can step up to fight a giant. If they are mentally prepared, then they are half way there.

I would give Bruce Lee as an example being small and powerful, he also did wing chun and later adapted other styles to come up with jkd, but it was his way of thinking that made him who he was.

But I'd rather give examples of the sahaba, some of them didn't know how to fight, but when it came to the action, they had full faith in Allah and their purpose was to defend Islam. Just that alone would give them the courage and power to be the best of the best and come out victorious.

The only time we as Muslims would need to fight in the streets is to defend and never to start a fight. So If we defend in the name of Allah, then we would fight in the name of Allah. If we win, we are successful and if we lose defending our Deen, then we are still successful.

Actions are according to intentions!

If we intend to show off with our skills, we've failed. If we intend to defend our Deen and our fellow brothers and sisters, we've won!

report post quote code quick quote reply

+1 -0Agree x 2

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

Unspecified

7,126

Sister

834

#19 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 07:36

I'm not one for any type of violence...unless it is self defense..

However...my son from a very young age...due to deafness and other illnesses....always got isolated in school...he was a skinny little lad, always always the one who got bullied, always an easy target, would always come home in pain and covered in bruises. School did nothing, in fact due to his soft nature and lack of aggression it was always going to be a no goer. Changed school 4 times, but the bullying just seemed to follow his nature.

Until one day unfortunately he was beaten so bad that it became a police case...by this time he was about 11yrs old and something just snapped inside him, he'd had enough... he started training in tang soo, he trained so hard over the years, he passed all his gradings, can break boards and so on and is now a red belt...hes been entered into competitions...and going to ireland next year for another competition, his instructor is hoping he will have acheived his black belt by then.

Khayr....last year he had 3 of the roughest teens on his back...first it started with name calling, then they started getting physical, well as a mother I've banned him from fighting due to fear of him hurting anyone and getting into trouble with the police...anyway few days of him taking nonsense and these lads thinking him to be a soft spot...a group of them corner him and start punching into his ribs.... my son is now 5ft 7, broad built with a very very soft nature...anyway he snapped and he absolutely battered them...in a school meeting I stood by my sons actions and Alhumdulillah so did the teachers with there knowledge of his character...the boys being known thugs, some got excluded some suspended....and yes my son says after being seen how he defended himself others avoid eye contact with him. Alhumdulillah.

It was the funniest thing, after the incident my son couldn't look up at me, he came over and said mum I'm really sorry I hit them, and to his suprise i said im so happy you did...anyway statements were taken, and his friend said that my son had lost it to a point where he wouldn't stop hitting and his friend kept shouting at him to stop. This uncontrollable part of anyone is the part I fear most.

I don't condone violence, but maybe occasionally for self defence, especially with the streets and kids being so ruthless and rough nowadays. Start them early, that is the only regret I have...if he had learnt to protect himself from a young age he would not have suffered as much.... For a small child the bullying and violence has an aweful impact on their self esteem and confidence.

report post quote code quick quote reply

+3 -0Winner x 3

ربي زدني علما
(My Lord! Increase me in Knowledge)

Unspecified

1,732

Sister

526

#20 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 13:38

Masha'Allah sis, brilliant little member of our ummah masha'Allah!

report post quote code quick quote reply

+2 -0Agree x 2

Acacia

Unspecified

7,126

Sister

834

#21 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 13:51

Alhumdulillah

report post quote code quick quote reply

+1 -0Agree x 1

ربي زدني علما
(My Lord! Increase me in Knowledge)

Unspecified

3,243

Brother

2,561

#22 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 14:14

salaam

i dont intend to hurt anyone's feelings. i am discussing this as i do not want fellow muslims to waste their time, hard work and money. i want the muslim ummah to be strong. i do not want the muslim ummah to be fooled. if you get offended by what i say then please do not engage in this discussion and accept my apologies.

report post quote code quick quote reply

+1 -0Like x 1

xs11ax

London

27,480

Brother

9,579

#23 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 14:57

From what I can see, we do have a secret strong nation in the making.

What you are trying to say is that we need to be the best of the best and according to you, that would come from grappling. Agree, but not everyone is capable of it. Even if we teach our children to be experts in any art, if the love and fear of Allah becomes the mastered art, then even grappling is of no use.

Yes we need to stop wasting time and money and stop being whimps too. At least it's a start in the right direction.

Really appreciate the input from the others too, especially my brave sisters, MashaAllah, making some of our brothers look like beard less men!

Alhumdulillah.

report post quote code quick quote reply

+1 -0Like x 1

Actions are judged by intentions, so each man will have what he intended.
ابو محمد

Unspecified

3,243

Brother

2,561

#24 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 15:06

Quote:

Anyone can be sloppy and they would pay the price. Each individual has his or her own strengths and weaknesses.
[/quote]
if these strengths and weaknesses have never been tested against trained fighters then we are just fooling ourselves. only by testing ourselves against trained fighters will we understand our strengths and weaknesses and be able to improve on them inshallah.

Quote:

If you train and fight by the rules, you will most likely get battered. But if you fight with no rules and train that way, you have a better chance, just as been mentioned by everyone else.
[/quote]
this is one of the problems with traditional martial arts. they almost always only train within their own discipline and only within their own school and only with their own classmates. they hardly ever venture outside their comfort zone. as for real fighting/sparring, this is very rare in traditional martial arts. even when they do fight/spar it is hardly ever full contact. and again they usually only ever fight/spar against their own disciplines/school/classmates. they get used to fighting in a certain style which to them seems to work, but only because their opponent has been mentally conditioned to fight in a similar way. in MMA there are rules in order to avoid serious and fatal injuries. granted you will not find these rules on the streets, but some safeguards has to be in place otherwise each round of MMA fighting would turn into a death match! but saying that MMA is the best controlled way to test you strengths and weaknesses against trained fighters. in MMA you will fight outside your comfort zone. you will fight against people from different disciplines. you will fight against people who use techniques which are not familiar to you. you will soon find out that a certain technique that you have been using all your life in your traditional martial art school against a passive opponent is useless against a non passive opponent.

Quote:

I use wing chun but not in the traditional way. In fact I forgot almost everything.[/quote]

then ask yourself why you even bothered spending time and money on something that you are not going to use. you will have gained some benefit from it, but if you had used that same time and money training in something that you would remember and be able to use then the benefit will have been much more and you would have actually gained what you set out to achieve.

Quote:

But when it comes to the crunch, by the will of Allah, I would be able to defend myself to the end. My advantages are the short range fast power punches. I can punch a brick wall ten times in less than ten seconds with more power than a boxer would be able to throw five punches. So if I had to get upclose, it would be to my benefit unless the other guy was a grappler. boxers have power in their arms, so I would in effect attack the arms more than the body to weaken them and then go for the face and body.[/quote]

have you actually tested this out in a (as close as possible) real fight against a boxer who has trained in his discipline for the same amount of time you trained and who is in a similar body condition as yours?

boxing has its limits which is why i advocate MMA. try to get up close to an MMA fighter on a one on one and he would just take you to the ground. if you have no ground work training then that would be the end of that. even if he doesnt take you to the ground, he will still be able to fight you close range as that is part of MMA training.

Quote:

We had a karate black belt in college....forget that, no point.[/quote]

lol i had a tang soo do black belt when i was a kid. she was around 50 years old and would never win a fight. the belts are awarded to people who can perform certain formations (kata) in the correct and clean way. nothing to do with being able to fight!

Quote:

We had a kickboxing teacher in my class in college, he was very good. He had all the moves and all the fancy kicks etc, but he could not get close enough to me because by the time he finished his spinning around or jumping, I would have already hit him. Not because I was small (in not small, 5' 11") he was smaller than me, but because he was too busy making his move. He could never understand why I was able to him with minimal movement and power.
[/quote]
his techniques will have worked against an opponent from the same discipline fighting in a similar style. all this time he thought his techniques were effective as he only fought within his comfort zone. when he came across you fighting in a different format than he was used to, he realised his techniques failed. this is the usual case with anyone who sticks to a certain discipline and who does not fight outside of his comfort zone. this is one of the points of MMA. go beyond your comfort zone.

Quote:

At the end of the day, it's down to each individual. I could do the splits (back then) but i never really saw the need for it when fighting because it would take too long to make the move, I could get hit trying the moves or hit in a flash with no fancy moves.[/quote]

this is the case with many traditional martial arts. they teach flowery moves that only work in a dojo setting. they hardly ever work in a real life situation.

[quote]These guys you mention who are hooligans etc, what do they have? Nothing, they are fearless, that's what wins them the fight or gives them the courage. And most of the times, they are out of their heads anyway.

this is a BIG part of martial arts/fighting. and part of the point i am trying to make. if a person has never been in a real fight before or in something close to a real fight then how is he expected to perform when needed? if he has never given a beating before and never taken a beating in the ring/cage/dojo then how is he expected to perform against people who fight on the streets as a lifestyle? you cannot go on the streets picking fights with thugs, but you can get close to it by fighting against MMA fighters. this is a huge thing that traditional martial arts are lacking in.

[quote]If we teach the Muslims to be fearless of everything and anything except Allah, than they can step up to fight a giant. If they are mentally prepared, then they are half way there.

being nervous and apprehensive in unknown situations is normal and natural. some of this can be eradicated by training in a way that is as close as possible to a real life situation.

[quote]I would give Bruce Lee as an example being small and powerful, he also did wing chun and later adapted other styles to come up with jkd, but it was his way of thinking that made him who he was.

bruce lee is considered the godfather of MMA. he was one of the first to realise that training within your own comfort zone and avoiding full contact sparring is very limiting. most people confuse bruce lees on screen fighting with his real understanding of combat fighting.

[quote]But I'd rather give examples of the sahaba, some of them didn't know how to fight, but when it came to the action, they had full faith in Allah and their purpose was to defend Islam. Just that alone would give them the courage and power to be the best of the best and come out victorious.

i dont understand your point. there are many examples of sahabah training how to fight and encouraging training even though they had full faith in allah.

[quote]The only time we as Muslims would need to fight in the streets is to defend and never to start a fight. So If we defend in the name of Allah, then we would fight in the name of Allah. If we win, we are successful and if we lose defending our Deen, then we are still successful.

doesnt mean we dont train in the best way possible. and if you train with the right intention then even your training can be a means of getting nearness to allah.

[quote]Actions are according to intentions!

sahih.

[quote]If we intend to show off with our skills, we've failed. If we intend to defend our Deen and our fellow brothers and sisters, we've won!

i dont understand your point. no one is saying to show off. being delusional about your own capabilities is showing off to ones own self. going out to recognise and understand ones own weaknesses is the opposite of showing off.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

xs11ax

Unspecified

3,243

Brother

2,561

#25 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 15:13

Quote:

What you are trying to say is that we need to be the best of the best and according to you, that would come from grappling.
[/quote]
no. in the context of martial arts that would come from MMA (mixed martial arts) and actual fighting as close as possible to the real thing which in this society would be in a MMA fight against trained MMA fighters.

Quote:

Agree, but not everyone is capable of it. Even if we teach our children to be experts in any art, if the love and fear of Allah becomes the mastered art, then even grappling is of no use.

i thought i was replying to a martial arts thread, hence i was discussing martial arts and not discussing love and fear of allah. love and fear of allah should be in everything. even when baking a cake. but when baking a cake the ingredients and methods of baking are discussed.

[quote]Yes we need to stop wasting time and money and stop being whimps too. At least it's a start in the right direction.

agreed.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

xs11ax

Unspecified

1,732

Sister

526

#26 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 15:29

Men and boys - get at least some form of training insha'Allah... and insha'Allah, mujahideen can train in mixed martial arts training as much as possible.

Women and Girls... especially with more and more of us finding ourselves in vulnerable situations and alone... at least get some self-defense training. I don't think MMA is a reasonable pursuit for us, though some might get such intensive training. Insha'Allah most honourable MMA fighters don't go around harassing women and children and we're just left with whimps who are too cowardly to try their 'moves' on men so insha'Allah with a little bit of training, we can easily stop such evil people in their tracks. We need to learn to defend ourselves and our children to some degree.

And... given our highly stationary lifestyles, the exercise value is immense too insha'Allah.

May Allah Ta'aala bless the ummah of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wa sallem) with strength and power, from the slightest member to the biggest, women and children as well as men, scholars as well as fighters - bless us all with strength, agility, and power, and grant us protection and success. Ameen.

report post quote code quick quote reply

+5 -0Winner x 5

Acacia

Unspecified

1,732

Sister

526

#27 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 15:36

:( why the disagreement?

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

Acacia

Unspecified

3,243

Brother

2,561

#28 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 15:39

Acacia wrote:

View original post

i was thinking the same. maybe a mistake? if not then i would like that person to explain why they disagree please.

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

xs11ax

Unspecified

7,126

Sister

834

#29 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 15:56

Sorry sis, that was me, meant to be agree, but now you got a winner instead MashaAllah, yes definitely a mistake...hoping it would be someone else's mistake...but hey nobody's perfect :-)

report post quote code quick quote reply

No post ratings

ربي زدني علما
(My Lord! Increase me in Knowledge)

Unspecified

1,732

Sister

526

#30 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd September 2013 16:04

:) sis, no worries insha'Allah

Alhamdulillah, it was a mistake. Sorry, I wanted to delete my post but can't.

That said, alhamdulillah, eventhough it was a mistake, the 'dislike' got me thinking about what more could be said...

It isn't easy to find trainers for women - that's a challenge that needs some attention in individual communities insha'Allah.

Also, for men and children, perhaps it is easier to find mixed martial artists to train with these days, at least after some initial exposure to some form of martial art... or, listing the forms of martial arts (as you all have been doing here) that would be most effective when used in combination and setting out to master them all - even if only in very controlled settings (like the classroom, with familiar people, etc.).

report post quote code quick quote reply

+1 -0Agree x 1

Acacia

Martial Arts

Font Size

Font Weight