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#121 [Permalink] Posted on 1st March 2013 16:03
rizmalek wrote:
I agree with the guest. You can't prove something to be haraam when it has never been labelled or expressed as haram, anywhere or in time by sharia.   It's very easy to quote verses that can be applied to a magnitude of situations, not just smoking......


My favourite post. This sums it up really. Everyone's a Mufti now trying to do commentary on Qur'an and Hadeeth. If only this much effort was made about clear Haram like shaving, trimming, skin tight clothes with Hijab, drugs. This is more rampant in London especially my area
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#122 [Permalink] Posted on 1st March 2013 16:18
Apologies for bringing this up, but I thought it was only fair to add this info here as it is related and was not taken out of context by the speaker in the youtube video with his views, who many of us would say and agree is extreme.

This is not a personal attack, but something that we may have missed and started to make other judgements without knowing why it was said and where it was said.Readers of the thread may just read and believe, but it is only fair to correct if anyone of us have made a mistake. I admit and accept mistakes, as can be seen within this thread and others, but the speaker clearly recites the verse of the Quran and explains his reasons.

Therefore, this statement needs correcting.

from page 7 wrote:
I've never heard any Hadeeth of the Prophet speaking like that even about the Kuffar let alone Muslims. Show me one Hadeeth where the Prophet referred to ANY act as making a person the brother of the devil. And this extreme youtube person says this with "Wallahi"


(And no, I'm not saying this makes smoking Haram)

Although the quote above says Hadith, below is a Verse from the Quran referring to an act in which ALLAH himself calls certain people the brother of the Devil.

Islam has taught us as to where and how we should spend our money. In Aayah 31 of Surah Al-A'raf, we are told:

"Children of Adam, dress well whenever you are at worship, and eat and drink [as We have permitted] but do not be extravagant: Allah does not like extravagant people."

And at another place in Aayah 26-27 of Bani Isra'eel, Allah (SWT) says:

"Give relatives their due, and the needy, and travelers - do not squander your wealth wastefully: those who squander are the brothers of Shaitan, and Shaitan is the most ungrateful to his Lord."

Both of these Aayahs command neither to be extravagant nor spend thrift, but keep a healthy balance between the two. Haafiz Ibn-e-Kathir says in the sight of the Holy Qur'an an extravagant person equals Shaitan. Abdullah bin Masood (RA), and Abdullah Ibn-e-Abbas say that every expense except the one made for the right and necessary cause is extravagance. Mujahid (RA) opines that if a person has spent all his money, it is not extravagance, but if he spends even a little bit of it for an unfair cause, then it certainly is. Qatadah (RA) said that extravagance means spending money in the unfair and wrong causes, which is disobedience to Allah (SWT).
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#123 [Permalink] Posted on 1st March 2013 18:26
I take it that the thread is still open.

Firstly, I'd like to apologise to anyone if they felt hurt by or offended by what I said.

I'd like to treat this case as misunderstood because not one single point or sentence of mine has been countered or answered. Not one. So how can everyone be so blind to my messages?

If you want me to prove you and everyone wrong, please give me a chance by firstly, listening (reading) in this case and second by answering if you have an answer. Until each one is not answered, I will not move on. If you don't have answers then say you don't have an answer instead of drifting so far away from topic that we all forget what point was being made.

If you want proof of the above. I can provide it. I am free now and over weekend so I promise to reply more.
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#124 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2013 02:16
Bismillah.

May Allah guide me through the following process.

Since you haven't replied, I am taking out time to put everything into one post so anyone who wishes to actually understand instead of behave childish can do so. Otherwise a different page is only one click away.

--------------------------
Post number 2
abu mohammed wrote:
muftisays. com/blog/abu+mohammed/403_13-09-2010/smoking.html

See above link for video.

This is not the opinion of a Mufti. (but it should be)[/quote]

In that link, you say you don't understand why it's not Haram. In the quote you say that it should be the opinion of a Mufti. This has already proved that before you believed it was Haram and before your discoveries about the harms etc, you clearly showed that you have no respect for scholars and feel that they should have "your own" "personal" opinion. Evidence above.

abu mohammed wrote:
I have made my position clear, and the important thing to remember is that I have no authority to pass any ruling. [/quote]
But you just did above and you said that it "should" be the opinion of Muftis. Contradictions contradictions

abu mohammed wrote:
but that's my opinion and I'm not enforcing it upon anyone.[/quote] Didn't you just enforce it upon Muftis above?

--------------------

Muadh Khan wrote:
In simpler words you can eat BACON or SMOKE SHEESHA or DRINK ALCOHOL and they are all the same in terms of a sin i.e. HARAM![/quote]

BACON:
إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيۡڪُمُ ٱلۡمَيۡتَةَ وَٱلدَّمَ وَلَحۡمَ ٱلۡخِنزِيرِ
He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swineflesh
Surah 2, Verse 173

حُرِّمَتۡ عَلَيۡكُمُ ٱلۡمَيۡتَةُ وَٱلدَّمُ وَلَحۡمُ ٱلۡخِنزِيرِ
Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swine-flesh,
Surah 5, Verse 3

قُل لَّآ أَجِدُ فِى مَآ أُوحِىَ إِلَىَّ مُحَرَّمًا عَلَىٰ طَاعِمٍ۬ يَطۡعَمُهُ ۥۤ إِلَّآ أَن يَكُونَ مَيۡتَةً أَوۡ دَمً۬ا مَّسۡفُوحًا أَوۡ لَحۡمَ خِنزِيرٍ۬ فَإِنَّهُ ۥ رِجۡسٌ أَوۡ فِسۡقًا أُهِلَّ لِغَيۡرِ ٱللَّهِ بِهِ
Say: I find not in that which is revealed unto me aught prohibited to an eater that he eat thereof, except it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or swineflesh - for that verily is foul
Surah 6, Verse 145

إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيۡڪُمُ ٱلۡمَيۡتَةَ وَٱلدَّمَ وَلَحۡمَ ٱلۡخِنزِيرِ
He hath forbidden for you only carrion and blood and swineflesh
Surah 16 Verse 115

ALCOHOL
They ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: "That which is beyond your needs." Thus Allh makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought.
al-Baqarah 2:219


Shaitn (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allh and from As-Salt (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?
Al-Ma'idah 5:91

O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.
[Al-Qur'an 5:90]

The Prophet of Islam Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
"Alcohol is the mother of all evils and it is the most shameful of evils."
[Sunan Ibn-I-Majah Volume 3, Book of Intoxicants, Chapter 30 Hadith No. 3371]


SHEESHA & SMOKING
Still searching Qur'aan & Hadeeth about this. How can you possibly say that they are ALL THE SAME?



-------------------
abu mohammed wrote:
When we replied saying no and showing our concerns and labelling it haram, what do we get? A stupid "lol". [/quote]

You yourself say here that you showed concerns and "labelled" it haram. I have every right to ask proof if you are accusing me of committing Haram. If I don't have a right, you have no right to accuse anyone of committing Haram.

--------------------

Then abu mohammed posted a poster about Shisha being worse than 200 cigarettes followed by a verdict of Mufti Ismail Menk in which he says clearly that it's "Haram Haram Haram" and anyone who says otherwise don't know what they're talking about. A bold claim indeed and this is what triggered me off in addition to the poster which made me post my first post.

--------------------
Here is everything that you have clearly ignored that I posted. Not only ignored it but you also changed it and posted lies about me which I'll paste here:

Guest-81866 wrote:
I am not saying it cannot be Haram because all scholars are unanimous that in individual cases it can become absolutely Haram[/quote]

Guest-81866 wrote:
one cigarette is MUCH WORSE than shisha. Anyone who says Shisha is worse than smoking clearly don't know what the hell they're on about. Cigarettes are WORSE. It's the worst thing a person can be hooked on to. Shisha is NOTHING. I wish every day I never started smoking[/quote]

After that, there were non-stop posts about its harms. HELLO??? Did you not read my posts at all? When did I deny the harm?

Still I had to post:
Guest-81866 wrote:
The video has still not proved how it's HARAM in SHARIAH. No smoker denies the harms[/quote]

With your own logic, I proved that biting nails is Haram. You did not deny it. If you deny it then you have denied yourself the right to call smoking even one cigarette Haram.

----------------
Then I asked:
If you can find me one smoker who says shisha is worse then I will remain silent about this point.
But instead of answering, you ridicule and assume (accuse):
"Smokers will say no won't they because they can taste strawberries, apple, peach or what ever flavors they are"

-----------------

I asked, "According to you, if a person does not inhale then is it still Haram?" you didn't answer

----------------
You say:
abu mohammed wrote:
My opinion is not what matters. Its between us and Allah.[/quote]


----------
Then you make up your own translations too:
abu mohammed wrote:
(chewing tobacco is a form of intoxication)[/quote]

What is intoxication
Quote:
Intoxication is the acute state of physical and cognitive impairment caused by drinking alcohol or being exposed to a psychoactive drug. Intoxication typically has both physical and mental effects, which can include difficulties with controlling movement, mood changes, impairment of cognitive skills, impaired judgment, impaired impulse control, and changes in interpreting your surroundings or the behavior of others.[/quote]

The mere nerves of suggesting that chewing tobacco is a form of intoxication without specifying 'which' tobacco is the very reason you are misleading everyone into your opinion.

You will never find a doctor, scientist or anyone who knows the meaning of intoxication to claim that a cigarette intoxicates.

Quote:
Although the term "intoxication" is most commonly used to refer to the acute (immediate or short-term) effects of alcohol, intoxication may also be used to refer to the effects of other drugs, including amphetamines, caffeine, cannabis, cocaine, hallucinogens, inhalants, opioids, phencyclidine, sedatives, hypnotics and anxiolytics.[/quote]

--------------

You then claim that scholars have been wrong referring to those who say it's Makrooh
abu mohammed wrote:
There have been many times when certain ulama have been wrong in their fatwa/judgement. And they stick to it profusely even when the whole world is against it[/quote]

I can't believe you actually think you have a better understanding than scholars who have studied with teachers, gone through the entire Quran Tafsir, read thousands of Hadeeth and meanings, gone through numerous books of jurisprudence and its principles.

abu mohammed wrote:
The problem, in my opinion, is that today we still take from the classical books for the contemporary issues. Many ulama use these classical books and give their rulings according to that[/quote]When you assume this low of scholars then what chance do normal people like us have who have extreme personal views breathing down everyone's necks?

---------------------

You even ended then:
abu mohammed wrote:
May Allah سبحانه وتعالى give me a better understanding, Aameen.[/quote]
But straight after it, you posted a picture of a Marlboro box with a health warning on it. So you don't listen to many scholars, you call them wrong and believe a label on a box. I gave a real valid reason for those labels yet you did NOT answer it.

A guest with the name "Smoking Kills" posted a reply but in all honesty, it made no sense. His first sentence was fully flawed. The rest was about the harms etc which no one is arguing about and then ends with how abu mohammed will be laughing at my approach.

----------------------

abu mohammed then replied with a joke about the old woman who died.

----------------------

Abu mohammed then found ONE sentence in a huge reply of mine with so many points and pin pointed to one sentence. Not even a sentence:

Guest-81866 wrote:
SMOKING DAMAGES HEALTH - maybe

abu mohammed wrote:
You cant be serious. You really are convinced that smoking is safe. SubhanAllah.


First, the word "maybe" indicated positive. Only "no" means no. "Maybe" means possibly, as it may be, can be, conceivable, conceivably, could be, credible, feasible, imaginably, it could be, might be, obtainable, perchance, perhaps, weather permitting These are all the synonyms available for the word "maybe" - not one place did I find it to mean "no"

But you once again, as usual, accuse me of claiming I said no by changing my words and the meaning of well known English words into your own translation. This is why I said later that I call this conniving and manipulative.

[quote=abu mohammed]I dont think its a good idea for people to come and say that smoking may not be bad for your health, that is absurd.

------------------------
YOU THEN APOLOGISED I KNOW - BUT THE ABOVE INFORMATION IS IMPORTANT
-------------------------

[quote=abu mohammed]There is a difference of opinion on this matter and I believe we've made that clear. Just on a personal level, I have taken the harsher one of haram

But then you still post more showing harms which once again WE ALL AGREE WITH but still post a hadeeth about numbness of senses. What does that even mean? You gave your own personal meaning of that but not any concrete proof of 1) what it means 2) why it applies to smokers

---------------------------
[quote=rizmalek]It's very easy to quote verses that can be applied to a magnitude of situations, not just smoking......

This was a key point of many of my questions and answers such as nail biting. You ignore me, you ignore rizmalek.

-------------
And then I'm so sorry to post this but out of frustration, I clearly said:
[quote]So since you are allowed to give Fatwas here, here is mine:

Yasin replied to that and I agree I was being stupid. Jazkallah for putting it well.

I know everything we do is related to Islam but my angle was in terms of ruling. There is more to Islam than just Haram. I treat Haram so seriously yet people can throw it around like it's nothing. I mean make everything Haram for yourself no problem.

------------------

[quote=rizmalek]i actually forgot to add that I don't agree with smoking and I think we shouldn't smoke, but we shouldn't label it as haram.


Because then we are taking those brothers who are smoking potentially out of the fold of Islam by accusing them of continuing to do haram.

Ignored by everyone who claim Haram


[quote=rizmalek]no one should be told that their love for a habit is greater than their love for Allah. That's wrong

No reply to this either from anyone


[quote=rizmalek]no body smokes to disrespect Allah, they smoke cos they have picked up a bad habit. That's what humans do.


Again, no reply becaue he speaks the truth. The truth does not have a reply and instead of admiting some wrong was said, there's complete silence.

------------------
Guest posted a query about someone's last Cigarette. You answered by turning a cigarette into Beer. Why is a cigarette and beer the same thing to you?

---------
The same guest then caught you out so amazingly. I am not sure of his intentions but he asked:
[quote]I'm just trying my best to understand here, so you're saying that the reason for smoking being Haram is because it's Haram to sell it?


This was deduced from:
[quote=abu mohammed]The point is we are not allowed to buy Haram pet food and feed it. So if we have Fatwa saying that trading in Tabacco is Haram since it is a substance that causes proven damage to the body, then its use would also be Haram.


So once again you gave NO REASON or PROOF that it's Haram except to run away from the question

[quote=abu mohammed]The underlined statement is not the reason. I dont want to continue posting the reasons why many Ulama have said it is Haram/Makruh. If you may, please read them.


----------------------------------

So after all the above and how convinced you were that SCHOLARS were wrong to say it's Makrooh, you then say:
[quote=abu mohammed]For me, it's still Haram and Allah knows best. I used the term Makruh, because those who don't accept it as Haram (which is fair), they in the least, accept that it is Makruh. Therefore, I used that as an example.


-----------------
You give stories such as
[quote=abu mohammed]And the only reason i make susch a statement is that I have asked a very well known Mufti a valid question and Alhumdulillah, he had answered it very well to the best of his knowledge at the time. However, a year later, I had found strong evidence which suggested something else. And since it was not about ego, rather taqwa, I went back to the Mufti and presented my evidnece and asked him again. Alhumdulillah, he changed his verdict there and then.


But the problem here is that every evidence you've given proves it's Makrooh and NOT Haram. The evidence you claim it proves it Haram does not prove that a few people here have answered that already. The problem is that it was either ignored or made fun of.

----------------
[quote=abu mohammed]Although the quote above says Hadith, below is a Verse from the Quran

I did ask for Hadeeth. We are taught to behave like the Prophet so I asked for Hadeeth (if anyone knew one). You posted verses. So unless this youtube speaker is God, giving a verse about it is of no benefit. I hope all the haters and attackers know the meaning of the "unless" statement

[quote=abu mohammed]Both of these Aayahs command neither to be extravagant nor spend thrift, but keep a healthy balance between the two.
So isn't the Quran teaching that a healthy balance in between... But
[quote=abu mohammed]Just on a personal level, I have taken the harsher one of haram.

So technically, you've gone against the Quran because the same way you can apply the verse about suicide to smoking, I can apply a portion of this verse to your choice of following the harsh one as going against the Quran - crazy no?

So as a conclusion, I will end with one last post as this was about all the haters of smoking getting personal and just fighting instead of answering claims which one is entitled to ask for on a "forum"
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#125 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2013 02:31
So here it is and since earlier posts always get ignored, the above post came first.

I will end with:

"You" in all the points below refer to the haters including the guests

1) You have not directly proved that "smoking is Haram and that's that"

2) You later changed from it's Haram to it's Makrooh too

3) You then continued to try to prove it's Haram

4) I answered everything

5) I explained everything

6) I asked many questions and counter arguments which were ignored or changed

And most importantly the following:
I say it's Makrooh because scholars say it's Makrooh. Those same scholars also say it can be Haram too. But the ruling will differ from person to person as my Mufti has said. He made it abundantly clear that we cannot make Haram something which Allah and His Rasool did not directly forbid. We cannot apply random related verses so harshly without giving a Muslim a chance to give up a Makrooh "Habit" by choice.

Continuously indulging in Makrooh results in Makrooh Tahrimi which is as close to Haram as a ruling can get. And at certain points it can most definitely be Haram too.

So the question is, who out of Taqwa will give up a Makrooh habit before it gets worse. Who on the first sign of problems will throw away the filthy habit? Who but Allah can judge and accept the intentions of a person striving to quit for His sake?

This is why I said do not say I'm committing Haram ESPECIALLY since you failed to prove it. I spent two hours on the two posts. If it saves even one person from labelling then I'm happy.

And I am a strong believer in the Prophet's way of mildly and gently bringing people towards good. The correct ruling of Makrooh is the way for that.

If a person reads "Makrooh" and then starts smoking is an idiot who doesn't know what Makrooh means. Read up on it and see how bad "Makrooh" itself is but that's no excuse to label it Haram just because someone MIGHT start it thinking it's only Makrooh. In that case, EVERY Makrooh should be Haram.

Allah truly does know best
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#126 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd March 2013 12:24
MashaAllah and Jazakallahu khair.

I have mentioned to others from the forum but away from the forum, that I respect your findings, approach and opinion.

I won't go through all the points as its not necessary. You have made your self very clear and I personally appreciate that.

A couple of my posts may have been taken out of context, but nevermind.

WasSalaam.
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#127 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2013 11:44
rizmalek wrote:
i actually forgot to add that I don't agree with smoking and I think we shouldn't smoke, but we shouldn't label it as haram.

Because then we are taking those brothers who are smoking potentially out of the fold of Islam by accusing them of continuing to do haram.

no one should be told that their love for a habit is greater than their love for Allah. That's wrong
no body smokes to disrespect Allah, they smoke cos they have picked up a bad habit. That's what humans do.


May Allah protect us all.


This ones got me thinking bro. For all those men who dont have beards (i.e. they shave) they ARE doing haraam, but that dont take them out of the fold Islam, but we can say to them that they are in a state of constant haraam. In this case, their love for their feminist look is most likely more than the love of Allah and his Rasul.

Coz, as far as im concerned the evidence for not smoking is far greater than for not shaving.

If they love themselves more than the Rasul, then Imaan hasnt fully entered their hearts. Am I wrong to say that?
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#128 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2013 12:09
Quote:
Coz, as far as im concerned the evidence for not smoking is far greater than for not shaving.

There's clear Ahadeeth about shaving. The ruling of shaving is unanimous (with various definitions but one ruling) amongst all the scholars. This is not the case with smoking.

Wassalam

Thread locked: I thought it was over but it probably will keep starting again. I haven't added the move/split/merge feature to new forum so I've locked this thread. For those who want to continue, please login, request access to "Debates" usergroup and in there, anything goes.
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#129 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 14:10
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#130 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 15:21
NHS news article

E-cigarettes to be regulated as medicines

Wednesday June 12 2013

More and more people are using e-cigarettes
Electronic cigarettes are to be licensed and regulated as an aid to quit smoking from 2016, it has been announced.
E-cigarettes - battery-operated devices that mimic cigarettes - are to be classed as 'medicines', which means they will face stringent checks by medicine regulator the MHRA and doctors will be able to prescribe them to smokers to help them cut down or quit.
This move has been widely welcomed by medical experts and officials, as tighter regulation will ensure the products are safe and effective.
Until this happens, e-cigarettes are only covered by general product safety legislation, meaning they can legally be promoted and sold to children, and we cannot be sure of their ingredients or how much nicotine they contain. The MHRA will not ban the products entirely during this interim period, but will encourage e-cigarette manufacturers to apply for a medicine licence.
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#131 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 15:22
Are e-cigarettes safe?

We don't really know until they have been thoroughly assessed and monitored in a large population over time. However, compared with regular cigarettes, they are certainly the lesser of two evils.
First, e-cigarettes don't contain any tobacco - only nicotine, which is highly addictive but much less dangerous. For this reason, smoking e-cigarettes (known as 'vaping') is generally regarded a safer alternative to smoking for those unable or unwilling to stop using nicotine.
Also, while the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) found the liquid and vapour to contain traces of toxins (PDF, 237kb), including cancer-causing chemicals nitrosamines and formaldehyde, the level of these toxins is about one thousandth of that in cigarette smoke.
We cannot be certain that these traces of toxins are harmless, but tests on animals and a small study of 40 smokers are reassuring, providing some evidence that e-cigarettes are well tolerated and only associated with mild adverse effects (slight mouth or throat irritation, a dry cough).
Public health charity Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) is cautiously optimistic, concluding in its January 2013 briefing (PDF, 447kb) that 'there is little evidence of harmful effects from repeated exposure to propylene glycol, the chemical in which nicotine is suspended.'
Others are more wary. Some health professionals do not recommend them because they believe the potential for harm is significant. It is worth bearing in mind that nicotine is not altogether harmless - for example, it has been linked to anxiety - and research suggests nicotine plays a direct role in the development of blood vessel disease.
E-cigarettes are banned by other countries and by some UK schools concerned about their influence on adolescents.

www.nhs.uk/news/2013/06June/Pages/e-cigarettes-and-vaping...
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#132 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 15:42
Many smokers have been encouraged to convert to e-cigs, (mainly by health professionals) but long term side effects are still unknown...many countries have deemed them dangerous to the extent of even banning them completely.
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#133 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 15:46

How can someone have a relationship with a husband/wife who smokes? They smell...

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#134 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 16:03

 

There are two aspects to smoking. Nicotine and all other chemicals which go into ensuring that the cigarette burns uniformly. An e-cigarette uses Nicotine + chemicals (less maybe) and you can tell by just looking on ebay with a plethora of chemicals available in UK and imported from abroad.

Even if the chemical was made in UK and all chemicals duely approved and subject to stringent health and safety regulation that still leaves the issue of Nicotine which is a drug. Far from it this is the sort of coloured non-nense which people smoke!

e-cigarette is safe because of the vapour not because of the content.

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#135 [Permalink] Posted on 21st October 2013 16:41
Children use e-cigarettes and from what I recall, they are available for children to purchase.

It used to be that the closest children could come to cigarettes (in countries where tobacco sale to minorities is strictly prohibited) was to 'pretend' to smoke with candy cigarettes... of course, there were children who smoked real cigarettes taken from their parents too. Now, they are able to purchase and smoke e-cigarettes with their candy/spending/allowance money; and, who knows... maybe they'll become willing consumers of the tobacco industry in the near future.

May Allah Ta'aala protect us. Ameen.
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