Karguzari from UK heard in India.

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 18:42

akbar703 wrote:

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Bismillah.

I think something getting lost in translation here, I am not fully understanding this.

So just for clarification are you saying a Jamaat in recent years visited England and they met an elder who narrated to them what the plight of Muslims was when they first arrived in this country.

And the TJ brothers listening assumed. That the situation of Muslims in U.K. is exactly the same as it was in the 1950’s and despatched Jamaats here. Some of them selling their properties in the process. ???

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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 18:55

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Bismillah.

I am not sure where you have gotten the idea, that it was solely due to TJ that the Imaan of Muslims remained in tact the U.K. But I would humbly disagree. I don’t think that’s the case.

And if you read the Karguzari of Mufti Taqi Usmani some of the first Jamaats to visit Brazil. Did so in the 1970’s and Jamaats from America, Canada, and U.K. and elsewhere have been visiting the countries you mentioned for the last 40 years.

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 19:10

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1. Plight of UK Muslims reached Indian sub continent elders and they compiled jamaaths who visited UK.
2. The members of these visiting jamaaths had sold their properties to bear expenses for their visit to UK.
3. The plight of Panama, Venezuela and other central Americans countries didn't reach these elders, Lakhs of muslims are lost in these countries.

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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 19:15

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:

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Quote:

I am not sure where you have gotten the idea, that it was solely due to TJ that the Imaan of Muslims remained in tact the U.K. But I would humbly disagree. I don’t think that’s the case.

My claims must be research based. So, I am researching on UK vs central America. So can you shed light on who brought the change in UK. Tableeghees claim that UK changed after their visits. So what is their contribution, 100%, 50% or just a catalyst of 1%

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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 19:40

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Your starting point is flawed. First you need to look at where and from which countries the first generation of muslims, immigrated from.

Secondly you need to look at the religious practice of these muslims when they immigrated. Did they already have an attachment to the deen before they immigrated. Or where they secular people from secular countries. Where they people who mainly immigrated from villages or where they middleclass people with University educations. There is a distinction between these two as well the people immigrating from villages are strong in practice and jazba but weak in knowledge and are usually determined hold on to their religious heritage. Many of those from Middleclass backgrounds with professional degrees, are very secular and westernised before they move abroad. And they are quick to adopt the culture of the locals.

If you are going to do a comparative study with say the United Kingdom
Considering majority of the first muslims immigrated from Indo/Pak the nearest and most fair and closest comparison you can do is with Indo/Pak muslims who immigrated to other parts of the world.

If you want me to quantify percentage wise I would say that would be difficult. For example vast majority of the first immigrants were Barelwi. My family elders are all Barelwi and only one elder from my family from that generation was attached to TJ rest all remained staunchly anti-Tabligh.

Amongst the Deobandis we had two of the earliest Dar Ul Ulooms established in the U.K. in the 1970's.
One was attached to the Tabligh Jamaat in Dewsbury. And the other was run by Hazrat Yusuf Motala sahib in Bury. The graduates from Bury had a far greater impact in the U.K. then the ones from the TJ Dar Ul Uloom. From my observation.

And ALLAH knows best.

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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 19:48

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Brother, you agreed that there was a period when there was zero attendance in masjid, no eid prayers, no ramadhan. This is the karguzari of UK.

And regarding how pious they were before migrating..... Afghan warriors jailed in europe were brought to Australia. And we have steve Waugh and Mark waugh, their fore fathers were Afghans.

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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 20:05

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Wallah... I am discussing with an open mind.
I am ready to accept that:
1. Before the arrival of tableeghi jamaat UK was reformed, TJ gave final touches and claimed everything.
2. Reformation process in UK was on, TJ gave a few grams of catalyst and claimed everything.

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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 20:31

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Bismillah.

I would not say I fully agreed. But definitely if such a scenario did happen it would have most likely been amongst the very first generation of arrivals circa 1950. Secondly you did not mention what Town the Karguzari you stated in the first post was from. That Karguzari stated that it was the first Islamic centre and there was only a few families in that town. Firstly in the United Kingdom you had hardly any families immigrating mostly men arrived here on their own for work and families then followed years later.

Secondly in the main industrial hubs and manufaturing centres and factories. Immigrants arrived in their thousands. In my homecity of Birmingham.

And the Karguzari from my elders here in Birmingham in those days they either purchased houses and rented them and used them as Musallas in order to perform Salah. They did not know planning permission was required and sometimes non-muslims would complain to the authorities. And the authorities would put restrictions.

Halal food was not available so mainly survived on vegetables and would have to travel miles to find a shop that sold spices. They would sometimes go to a farm and purchase a sheep or chicken and do Zabiya themselves. I assume in those days some farms had such facilities and ALLAH knows best.

So in conclusion when it was mentioned in your first post that muslims would only go to Islamic center on Sundays. The first thing that entered my mind was a story written by another TJ brother in one of the forums. Who claimed Arab muslims in France would only go to Masjid on Sundays and perform Jumah on Sundays. Then someone called Professor Sanaullah. Went there and initiated the work of TJ and revived Islam.

I have never heard of muslims only going to Masjid on sundays here in UK before your first post. And I have never heard of muslims not knowing about Ramadhan. Maybe it did happen amongst the first arrivals and ALLAH knows best.

What I can say by the time the 1960's came along the muslim men started calling their families over. They had started moving from makeshift houses to full time Masajids. In that decade they had their own halal facilities and muslim butcher shops and basic Islamic teaching for children.

How much credit goes to TJ for this I would not say significant. The people who spoke English at that time were educated and understood rules regulations planning permissions etc. Came from Jamaat E Islami affiliated groups.

And as far as TJ work from my understanding it took root with the efforts of elders like Hafiz Patel who settled in the U.K.

And ALLAH knows best.

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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 13th January 2023 21:20

akbar703 wrote:

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Bismillah.

I dont know what you mean by reformed.
Muslim men arrived here without their families as migrant workers not expecting to settle permanently. With the idea of earning enough money before they were told to return home.

They did not expect the British to grant citizenship or allow them the right to call their families over. So in the 1950's we had 10 to 15 men living in each house. sometime working double shifts upto 16 hours per day in Factories and Foundries and Mills.

They did not start establishing Islamic institutions until the government changed rules and allowed them to call over their families. Initially everything was temporary and makeshift.

In anycase if you are looking for TJ perspective you can listen to the Taziyati bayaan upon the demise of Hafiz Patel by Mufti Ebrahim Limbada, on youtube.

youtu.be/BrTGoM4bCZQ

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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 14th January 2023 02:22

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:

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And another crime by tableeghi jamaat was that when sub continent was and is in pathetic condition... they would reformed their own people first and then would have done fikr of UK. That too visiting UK without proper funds, I mean could not stay in hotels due to lack of funds, spending nights in tents and Telephone booths in cold weather, . Absolutely there was no demand for that. First they would have had their own house in order and then with sound financial backing they would have send their delegation to UK. And sponsored well trained ulema would have done a better job. It was a waste that jamaaths from sub-continent visited UK, both time and money was wasted by those ignorant muslims.

And there is no need of Tableeghi jamaat in UK. Now social media has taken over, better dawah is done through social media. Wind up tableeghi jamaat, their resources can be better utilised by creating dawah youtube channels etc.

Concluded....

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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 14th January 2023 03:07

akbar703 wrote:

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At this point in time. There is no need for certain countries to get Jamats from foreign countries. It is a waste of money. Before the scenario was different.

Brother you are failing to realize that no one on this forum is against TJ style Dawah. What is being addressed is this ghuloo type behaviour. You are taking every form of constructive criticism as an attack and blowing it out of proportion.

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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 14th January 2023 05:05

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What exactly is your point, wallah it sounds confusing. In the previous posts you were hard core trying to prove how TJ is the reason why England is Islamically active, etc, now your straight up criticizing TJ, lol what's going on?

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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 14th January 2023 05:50

Ibn Ghafoor wrote:

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mSiddiqui wrote:

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Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:

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The west has better Dawah techniques. Tableeghi jamaat is obsolete here.

Indian subcontinent faces irtidaad in villages/towns, City slums (10ft by 10ft houses), Muslims living in isolation in isolated areas (concrete jungle) etc. Sub continent jamaats can concentrate here.

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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 14th January 2023 05:51

Ibn Ghafoor wrote:

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I have heard from locals in UK. So naturally I have to change my view.

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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 14th January 2023 08:41

I don't wish to take away any credit from anyone. But the way this thread is going, it's seems like we are supposed to accept that Muslims from the subcontinent left their homes to preach Islam in the UK (albeit to Muslims only) and because of this sacrifice, the Muslims of the UK are where they are today! If accurate, Alhumdulillah. If not accurate, we still praise Allah!

Those who migrated to the UK, did so for money. Once they had their own children, they realised they needed to teach their children about the deen, they focused their attention to that and that's how the migrants kept the deen alive.

My dad's uncle migrated to America about 3 decades ago. A staunch Barelwi. They had no mosques, no deen, no salah, no nothing. So this grand father of ours started teaching Qaida to children because that's what he could teach them. He couldn't teach them Quran and hadith. But as the years went by, the community grew and more and more people were attending the class.

Soon enough, people started to become religious. So much so, that today, they have created Alims, hafiz of the Quran and teachers (all Barelwi)

The grandfather passed away a few months ago and leaves behind him a legacy that even us non Barelwi are very proud of.

However Islam reached the corners of the world, it was the will of Allah and should not be claimed as the work of one group of people or one individual. Allah makes use of what He wills!

At the rate this thread is going, it is leading towards pride! And now sarcasm has kicked in.

Yes, Muslims had sacrificed their time and money to preach to their own people, yet the same old story of, "Us, Me, I, TJ"

Just imagine if the Tabligh jamaat were to preach to non Muslims! What an effect that would've had.

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Karguzari from UK heard in India.

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