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Goodbye Message to My Brothers and Sister

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd August 2020 14:13
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Türk Kızı wrote:
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W-Salam,

May Allah Ta'ala reward you for your time and effort in informing us & my best wishes on your endeavours (Ameen).

Your situation is the same as the rest of the Ummah. Lets take the example of "Deendaar (religious)" people of Pakistan. Imran Khan isn't religious enough, not the right answer but they cannot provide an alternative (the perfect candidate) except in theory. They can books on the imperfection and errors of Imran Khan but cannot provide two paragraphs on the comparative merits of the alternative candidate.

Nobody thinks Erdogan is perfect and nobody thinks that he is flawless. For nearly 600 years we lived under the Ottoman Empire and it had:

  1. Corruption
  2. Sin
  3. Excesses (Wordly and Islamic)
  4. Errors and Mistakes


But it was ours and taken away and replaced with hundreds of clueless, corrupt and coward nation states and it was snatched away from us. My house may be poor, broken and small but it is my house!

Until then, the imperfect, sinful and weak Erdogan it is who has our Duas.
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd August 2020 14:41
So much of what the sister has said with regards to Turkey resonates with me as a Pakistani and I have a feeling many other Muslim nationalities would feel the same.

The most frustrating part about being a Muslim today is reading about the glory of Islam in the past and not getting to experience any of it in a global sense, and with no real progress visible as yet of it returning in our lifetime. Still alhamdulillah, better than being born in complete ignorance.
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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd August 2020 14:52
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So much of what the sister has said with regards to Turkey resonates with me as a Pakistani

Exactly! Her opinion on Erdogan appears to be precisely the same as my opinion on Imran Khan. At some points I felt she was unnecessarily criticizing Erdogan and I realized why other members on this forum were annoyed with me when I was doing exactly the same with IK and his policies.
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd August 2020 19:45
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Brother Muadh Khan

I checked previous conversations and i can safely say you are much elder than me. If its okay with you, i call you uncle. Uncle Muadh you have made a very important point. Your sentiment is no different than some Turks feels. They say "Yeah Erdogan does this true but what to do we are helpless we cant vote for seculars, there is no strong candidate so we vote for him." Infact sister Bint Aisha had mentioned very similar point in the Hagia Sofia thread, im going eleborrate on this.

Dear uncle Muadh you probably have seen the Turkish politicans i have listed in your life. You had also seen the dark days which i wasnt even born yet. When you or anyone who knows Turkey say Erdogan is in my Duas, i understand it. Because you have actually witnessed those dark days and when a man comes and now allows Hijab in public and you can pray Salah on work, you feel "this man is good Mashaallah." I have listed all the problematic things, i even mentioned Erdogan's open statement about alawites. Alawites are Shias. Shias in Islam you know better than me are not Muslim. So, uncle Muadh, does this mean we should be okay with such man if he gave us few rights (not even all) we didnt had before? Should we accept such man's saying and ignore it? You can ignore sayings of non Muslim leaders under choosing the best canditate out of worst but you cannot do the same and ignore the saying of those leaders who are ruling a Muslim country. Turkey is not Britian neither US neither Canada. Turkey is Muslim a country which its 85% population is a Muslim. Now you may tell me "but Türk Kızı you forget your country's past where it came from?" I would say after the 2016 failed coup attempt, Turkey is not the same country anymore fully. This process has started from 2007 the end point was 2016. When Erdogan was selected as Turkey's president in 2018 under new presidential system which we voted for a year ago, he had become the most powerful man in Turkey. There was nothing to stop him now. All those who use to accept all the things he was doing under 'he is pressured' will not able to use this excuse anymore. Erdogan is ruling us with the new system for 2 years. Despite being in a very strong position of authority, he cant open Hagia Sofia without mosaics, he calls alawites as Muslim (this statement is from 2019) and still moon sighting is calculated and Waqf property opens as Islamic faculty. Uncle Muadh how can you explain this basically? Im tried of false hopes, im tired of optimism. Im tried of giving excuses to such person. Whoever it is he can be someone who has eased practing Deen for us, if anyone says alawites are Muslim then that person for me is over! I will not support such a person! If i support such a person im basically being okay to alawites taken as Muslim and that is my red line!

Just so that you know, i have voted for Erdogan too. Under the same reasons - there wasnt better canditate, so no choice what to do. But this is not a solution. erdogan isnt pressured by us and uses non alternative candidate to his advantage.

Uncle Muadh you know Pakistan politics much better than me, you remember a woman politican in Pakistan who had on live TV spoke ill of one Sahaba radiallahu anhu. Majority of Pakistanis went uproar and i saw some tweets for her removal. I saw their social media uproar from Turkey. Their social media uproar reached to Turkey. I dont know what happened to this woman politican later on but when Erdogan on live TV said we (Muslims and alawites) are the two views of same religion, nobody said anything. Is what Erdogan is saying any different than what that particular woman politican said? The only difference is that erdogan said this indirectly while this woman politician said openly. Now uncle Muadh would you or i be okay with such a man who takes speaking ill swearing slandering Sahaba radiallahu anhum as different view of Islam? What is our red line respected uncle? If we Muslims dont show any reaction to such people, these people will continue to say such things.

Erdogan was unknown. He became known with Erbakan's party. Erbakan wasnt known previously, he became known later on. I have listed 3 more candidates. I said i wouldnt support these 3 candiates but if these 3 canditates enterred to election, i would vote for Fatih Erbakan. Why? Because i would not accept the option im given which is erdogan. If my vote is the only way to pressure erdogan i would use it and give to Fatih Erbakan although i have listed his flaws as well.

We need to cut out from this vicious cycle of he is the best out there. These people should know that we arent sheeps that take everything we are given.
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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd August 2020 22:23
Türk Kızı wrote:
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There is nothing which you are saying that we don't understand or have not heard before and it isn't unique to you either.

fod1083 wrote:
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bint e aisha wrote:
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The conversation on this topic begins with trying to understand others:

  1. Nobody believes that Imran Khan or Erdogan are Prophets.
  2. Nobody believes that Imran Khan or Erdogan are perfect.
  3. Nobody believes that Imran Khan or Erdogan don't make mistakes.
  4. Nobody believes that Imran Khan or Erdogan are the best choice or best people or best suited.


Once the first stage is crossed, the rest of the conversation becomes easy which is, "It is what it is..."

Perfection belongs to Allah Ta'ala.
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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 2nd August 2020 23:08
Off Topic:

These discussions remind me of 1980s. Young people who were on the Sunnah were never satisfied with President Ziaul-Haq (RA) and they thought that he was using Islam (to extend his Martial Law) and fooling people, in fact those youngsters (old fools today) still believe this and will fight you for the legacy of President Ziaul-Haq (RA), what legacy?

Older people Shaykh Abdul-Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) and Mufti Wali Hasan Tonki (RA) were huge supporters and exactly saying "This is the best we have at the moment" and youngsters were not satisfied

Allah Ta'ala will judge President Ziaul-Haq (RA) and only Allah Ta'ala knows if he was sincere or not but look at what happened afterwards:

  1. Benazir Bhutto
  2. Nawaz Shareef
  3. Benazir Bhutto
  4. Nawaz Shareef


It is what it is...




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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd August 2020 02:48
The zeal of our respected sister is admirable۔ It was this zeal in the women of yore which produced the likes of Sultan Nooruddin Zangi RA and Sultan Salahuddin Ayubi RA۔ Channel that zeal towards the same end۔ The awliya and ghazis of the past were a result of the grit and sacrifice of their mothers۔
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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd August 2020 09:02
abuzayd2k wrote:
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Totally agree. Our Turkish abla is blessed with strong conviction and a dedication to the truth masha-allah. Allah ta'ala accept from you dear sister

We all understand and agree with the information you have provided and appreciate it. You dont have to leave completely. Please do consider staying around and pop in now and then and contribute where applicable. I do believe we should propagate the truth online as we live in an age full of false proapaganda. Your valuable contribution will be much appreciated.

And I agree with "Uncle" Muadh...It is how it is

Even where the Mashikh are concerned, Shaykh Zakariyyah (Rahimahullah) said in his time something like appreciating what we had rather than complaining that those in our time were not of the calibre of the mashikh of the past (Cant remember exact quote)


PS she is saying goodbye to a "Sister" hmmm i wonder which one?
: )

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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd August 2020 10:11
Türk Kızı wrote:
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Uncle Muadh you know Pakistan politics much better than me, you remember a woman politican in Pakistan who had on live TV spoke ill of one Sahaba radiallahu anhu. Majority of Pakistanis went uproar and i saw some tweets for her removal. I saw their social media uproar from Turkey. Their social media uproar reached to Turkey. I dont know what happened to this woman politican later on but when Erdogan on live TV said we (Muslims and alawites) are the two views of same religion, nobody said anything. Is what Erdogan is saying any different than what that particular woman politican said?

There is a difference between the two, my dear sister.
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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd August 2020 10:56
ummi taalib wrote:
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Quote:
Shaykh Zakariyyah (Rahimahullah) said in his time something like appreciating what we had rather than complaining that those in our time were not of the calibre of the mashikh of the past

This is such an important reminder. We need to appreciate those amongst us now (ulama٫ mashaikh٫ leaders٫ elders) because those who follow will be of an even lower calibre.
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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 4th August 2020 18:58
اَلسَّلاَ مُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكَا تُهُ

Dear brother and sister

It was very touching for respected members to write for me to stay. Im happy that what i had written has benefited you all. However respected members, there is honestly not much i can say. Because i explained everything literally. I have talked about everything, i have shed light to Ottoman mirage propagated under Neo-Ottomanism. If there is anything i have left out, i will answer it but honestly there is nothing i can say further. We Turks are living in Ottoman mirage, we are still compromising under we should be patient. Its unexplainable neither justifiable for us to still compromise no matter who says it. Turkey between 2010 - 2020 is not the same Turkey anymore. One can say but Türk Kızı there was a alliance in those days how can you forget this? I would say okay i agree with you, then why 2016 and onwards, we are still compromising?

We have disagreements due to age differences and experiences, however all i can say is:

One cannot understand Turkey or any country without living there. We can speculate all we want but in the end if one does not live in Turkey or in any country, one cant understand it no matter how much one reads or visits. Just as i wouldn't understand Pakistan or UK politics from Turkey, similarly one cannot understand Turkey following from abroad.

I honestly dont think i can commit time to following on and off as well. I cant promise about being active on and off.

Jazakallahu Khayran for everything.

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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 5th August 2020 10:29
Türk Kızı wrote:
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W-Salam,

Everyone who has read your posts understands your perspective, some of us merely disagree with the "lack of practicalities" of your views based on Islamic guidelines and ground realities particularly when no practical options or alternatives are presented.

People are allowed to "disagree" with implementation, right?

May Allah Ta'ala reward you for taking the time to make your views clear and transparent.

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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 6th August 2020 20:30
اَلسَّلاَ مُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكَا تُهُ

Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Uncle Muadh of course we can disagree on the implementation, as long as our implementation ideas does not contradict Shariat why not? We can have difference. As for Fiqh wise, supporting an alternative leader (i gave Fatih Erbakan) to pressure Erdogan is okay then i would personally do this.

I have actually came to clarify and apoglise for my certain statements which i feel i didnt write properly. A Turkish sister has contacted me and gave me advice and pointed out two of my comments which could potentially misused. I searched little more on these two words and i realized i have done a big mistake in one quote while on the other one its minor. I humbly ask respected members to forgive me. You have trusted and valued my words, i do not want to cast a shadow over my sincerity. May Allah Ta'ala reward Turkish sister for kindly advicing me and pointing out to me. Inshaallah i like to discuss my two previous statements in detail.

  • In 2013 he said for carsaf (its an abaya similar to jilbab) 'one shouldnt go extreme (AŞIRIYA KAÇILMAMALI)'


I should have gave the background and then leave the decision to you. This is truly a big mistake. I request everyone of you to forgive me.

Charsaf isnt a abaya but it is like jilbab. This statement's background goes to 2013 when AKP government had allowed civil servants (teachers, those who work in the public sector) to wear their hijab at work. AKP goverment had allowed clothing which the face would be open (the hair could be closed) This brought the question whether charsaf would be also allowed on work space. In theory it would be allowed as, those who wear charsaf's face are open. Erdogan attended to a live program where one journalist had asked whether charsaf was included and he said the following: "This arrangement was done for teachers and civil servants. Ministry of Education will arrange the scope(dress code). Other institutions will arrange(dress code) separately. There will not be specified dress code. Those who exceed (limits) are provoking positive developments. This would be abusing (positive development). We are saying will not interfere in people's lives. Someone should not interfere in their living space."

Turkish:Bizim bu yaptığımız düzenleme öğretmenlere yönelik ve ya memurlara yönelik bir düzenleme. Bütün içeriğini MEB yapacak. Diğer kurumlarında kendilerine ait bir düzenlemesi olacak. Bir resmi üniforma çizilmeyecek. Aşırıya kaçanlar bu olumlu gelişmeleri tahrik etmek olur. Süistimal etmek olur. Biz insanların bir taraftan yaşam alanında müdahale etmeyeceğiz diyoruz. Birilerinin de yaşam alanına müdahele etmemek lazım.

  • Erdogan himself openly said in 2016 'Islam needs reform.' This statement was said against an Alim who said woman cannot travel without a mahram after certain kilometers."


I want to correct myself because i have come to realize, Erdogan says this statement in 2018 and the Alim he answers back was wrongly accused of one video which he was alledged speaking ill of women. The background is like this, On Women's day Erdogan not citing the Alim but openly said "In Islam there is ugradement of rulings. We cannot use rulings of 14 - 15 century and apply to today's times. Thats why today's Islamic ruling application change according place and time. Now many Islamic scholars will explain this in negative light that is different topic. May my Rabb dont dislike us ."

Turkish: İslam’ın güncellenmesinin gerektiğini bileyecek kadar da aciz bunlar. İslam’ın hükümlerinin güncellenmesi vardır. Siz İslam’ı 14 -15 asır önceki hükümleriyle kalkıp da bugün uygulayamazsınız. Onun için de bugün İslam’ın uygulanması yer, zaman ölçüsüyle değişiyor. Şimdi bir çok hocaefendi beni tefe koyup çalacak o ayrı mesele. Rabbim bizi tefe koymasın.”

This statement was said against an Alim whose words had become viral on the internet. He was wrongly accused of saying 'women should appreciate being beating up'. His words was taken out of context. İmmediately Deendar segment rose up some spoke against Erdogan while some questioned Erdogan's statements. In defense, his adviser tweeted in summary "upgraded meant to re-intepret those rulings that where taken according to the time (İjtihad).
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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 7th August 2020 03:40
Thank you۔ This brings much clarity to what President Erdogan may have actually meant when he made those statements. You are right in presenting facts and letting readers draw their own conclusions.
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