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#181 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 14:02
I guess I just find this all disheartening. (Having to use Arabic)
Not to say that I won't (someday) be able to learn and memorize Arabic, Inshallah.

The idea that it is the only acceptable form allowed for prayer (salah) bothers me much more than whether or not I can learn Arabic.

Allah ta'ala knows all, understands all and knows best what someone's intent is. Yet, the Mufti's seem to be saying that the intent is not sufficient for Allah ta'ala. You must learn a foreign language (or worse, just imitate it without knowing it) in order to pray to Alla ta'ala.

That is so disturbing to me on so many levels.
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#182 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 15:23
In Need of Teaching wrote:
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Remember you started to crawl first, then walk and then run.


You are already using Arabic!

Get the actions right, use that little Arabic and watch your vocabulary grow and feel the scales tip on your good deeds.

You do not have to learn Arabic. It will come to you in memory so easily inshaAllah. You will eventually know the context of what you are reciting. You don't have to become fluent in Arabic at all.

Most Muslims aren't. The only ones who are, are the Arabs (many of whom don't understand the Quran as it should) and scholars or students of the language.


Don't jump to conclusions.

Can you imagine if we jumped to conclusions when the angel came to us in the womb and explained to us that we will come out of this place, out of this protective bag, out of the darkness and into a world of many people - good and bad, we will have to breath unaided, we will have to eat from the mouth, we will have to drink from the mouth, we will feel pain, love, laughter and we will forget everything we experience here, we will have to remember our purpose in life, we will be on our own and we'll need to find God! Did it not bother us then, didn't we think how we would cope, didn't we feel lost, alone, needing to start over? But what happened, God helped us through the course, one step at a time until we finally understood!

We might of found that disturbing on many levels too, but our maker knows us better. He knows what He put us into and He will help you through it.

Well, that's happening now. He is helping you and I and the others through to the next stage (first when we were just souls, then an embryo in the womb, then as people of the world, then in the grave, then on judgement day, then in Heaven or Hell, our final destination.

Also, don't think that if you don't understand what you are praying, you are not getting anything. Actually, you are getting what your mind cannot comprehend
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#183 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 15:55
In Need of Teaching wrote:
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Quote:
I think I'm living proof that the words, in any language, are a miracle in itself. I instantly recognized it as truth. No other research needed, etc. It was clear.

Above words were quoted in another thread and I am touched deeply.
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#184 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 21:52
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I guess I'm not sure if I'm making my point properly. At the same time I don't want to derail this thread into a Fiqh type question either.

Loading Qur'aan Verse Is a general instruction about reciting the Quran. It's not specific about using any type of language. Of course, the Quran was only in Arabic at that time though. (It was directly written down in the Prohets (pbuh) words and he spoke Arabic)

Quote:
Abu Dawood, who said: A man came to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) and said: I cannot memorise anything of the Qur’an; teach me of it what will be sufficient for me. He said: “Say: ‘Subhaan Allah, wa’l-hamdu Lillah, wa laa ilaaha ill-Allah, wa Allahu akbar, wa laa hawla wa quwwata illa Billah (Glory be to Allah, praise be to Allah, there is no god but Allah, Allah is most great, and there is no power and no strength except with Allah).’” The man said: This is for Allah; what is there for me? He said: “Say: ‘Allahumm aghfir li, wa’rhamni, wa’rzuqni, wa’hdini, wa ‘aafini (O Allah, forgive me, have mercy on me, grant me provision, guide me and pardon me).’”

This is specifically talking about memorizing the Quran.
However this part:
“Say: ‘Subhaan Allah, wa’l-hamdu Lillah, wa laa ilaaha ill-Allah, wa Allahu akbar, wa laa hawla wa quwwata illa Billah (Glory be to Allah, praise be to Allah, there is no god but Allah, Allah is most great, and there is no power and no strength except with Allah).’” The man said: This is for Allah; what is there for me? He said: “Say: ‘Allahumm aghfir li, wa’rhamni, wa’rzuqni, wa’hdini, wa ‘aafini (O Allah, forgive me, have mercy on me, grant me provision, guide me and pardon me).’"

Is an instruction to an Arabic speaker, so it's in Arabic (or he would not have understood it).

So, I do find it disturbing that we are being told we must pray salah in Arabic, not that I won't eventually be able to, but rather that we're being commanded to do so. *Edit* Also that it doesn't appear to be Allah ta'ala who is doing the commanding.
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#185 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 22:24
Again what about the Quran in its original Arabic being the word of Allah revealed to the Prophet salalahu alayhi wasalam via the angel Gabriel? Translations would not be the actual Quran or word of Allah. So if one is reciting translations that is what he would he reciting but then would he be reciting the actual Quran?
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#186 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 22:37
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Unless you're saying that a man educated in both languages couldn't translate the Quran, at the very least the translation would convey the meanings of the words.
Putting religion to the side for a moment.

Meanings of a word should be (imo) considered as more important than a word.
If you tried to speak to someone who only knew Spanish, and you had only memorized some words. Do you think you would be able to convey a message to that person if you didn't know the meanings of the words?
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#187 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 22:45
I am in full agreement that one should understand the Quran and its message. We are speaking about Quran in the salah and what is actually Quran. Notice I asked a question as I am not an expert on this topic. All i know is that 99.99 % of Muslims pray salah in Arabic and yes the Quran is also for understanding.
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#188 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 22:49
In Need of Teaching wrote:
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Here's another example. (I'm definitely NOT connecting this with Islam in any way shape or form, so please do not be offended.)

There is a certain Christian group here in the US and actually in the town I live in.
Their congregants fall to the floor during services and begin speaking absolute gibberish.
They say they are speaking the language of God and presenting God's message.
Everyone says "Amen" yet not a single one of them understands what has been said.
(Some denominations of this group actually have a "shill" in the congregation that is able to translate this.)

Why would a message from our Lord appear in such an unusual manner so that no one understands it.
To me, this is most definitely a sign of Shayteen and not of God.
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#189 [Permalink] Posted on 3rd February 2020 22:52
Concerned wrote:
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I don't mean to single you out. I'm just connecting my posts to it in a general sense.

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#190 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2020 00:47
In Need of Teaching wrote:
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I disagree.

The meaning of a word cannot match the actual word. One can't sit with a thesaurus to translate one word into a whole paragraph. Such is the depth off the Arabic language.

You haven't seen the I linked earlier, jewels of the Quran.
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#191 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2020 00:53
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No, I haven't listened to the Jewels yet, but inshallah I will get time enough to do so.

If you go back several posts to the sunnah I posted earlier.
Does the English translation accurately relate the Arabic text and meaning?
If it doesn't please post a correction so that I can better understand it.

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#192 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2020 01:06
From Shaikh Suhaib Saeed @tafsirdoctor twitter

Quote:

THREAD
The Tafsir literature is a treasure trove of evidence-based interpretations, often multiple for a single verse or phrase.

Qur’an translations are generally an assertion of one reading, and translators rarely explain their choices.
Multiple possibilities arise at the level of individual words, then grammatical structures, sentence syntax and so on. For an insight, see this article which also shows how and why translations differ:

quranica.com/divergence-in-translations/

When you depend upon a translation, you are deprived of the richness of Quranic meanings and the variety of views expressed by scholars in Arabic tafsirs. You might use a site like Islamawakened.com to compare multiple translations—good idea, but there’s still a problem...
To explain: suppose one ayah has been understood linguistically in three ways which we’ll call A, B and C.

A is the most obvious but the others are plausible and accepted by scholars—some argued that B is best, or C.
When you scan through the translations, you might find all 3 represented. The wording might differ slightly, but most are based on reading it as A: even if many translators didn’t consult tafsirs. Others gathered round B, and still others, C.
Or we may find A and B represented, but C is absent. Why? It wasn’t any one translator’s job to go with C, but isn’t it unfair that it’s overlooked in aaallllllll those translations?! And maybe some people really need to find C explained and translated.
We may even find that they all went with A. But why? Because it’s the apparent meaning, or because they lacked interest in the others and might not read tafsir anyway. And maybe, just maybe, they sometimes copy each other (😮).
And even though it’s unlikely that Apparent A will be missed, it’s definitely possible that a Dubious D will pop up in some translations: something that doesn’t find support in the exegetical literature. It might still be right.. but don’t you deserve to know that it’s novel?
These are knotty problems that I’m raising and seeking to address through a postdoctoral proposal currently under consideration.

In the meantime, shop around and take care out there! 😇
Translating tafsir is one kind of solution:

t.co/gIdGmQ1Ufx



Quote:
Question: So does this in anyway give credence to those who say (non arab) laymen should not try to understand Quran through translations or learning basic Arabic as that is "dangerous". They say one should only recite the arabic and any understanding is only via 'tafsir' classes.

Shaikh's reply:

Not at all. Partial understanding is better than no understanding. Any good translation is giving you one correct reading of the text. Many tafsir classes will also stick to just one!
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#193 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2020 02:40
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This was a great find. Jzk.
I read both your quotes and the original article.

I think it does stress the importance of knowing what you're saying. There may be tiny differences in translation, but the essential meaning is unchanged.

The article doesn't specifically mention the rote memorization aspect of reciting the Quran in Arabic, but it does show the importance of knowing what you're reading.

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#194 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2020 03:16
The following is only my opinion. I have been thinking about this for days, I have prayed on it many times and, hopefully, received some guidance from him.
I want to try to sum up the point I'm making.

I'm sure there are probably millions of Muslims that have learned the meaning of the Quran and the recitation of it.
However, I'm also sure that there are millions more that have simply memorized the surrahs and have either forgotten the meaning of them or never learned the meaning of it in the first place.

To say that rote memorization of words is more important than the deeper meaning and understanding of what you're saying, does not sound worthy of praising Allah ta'ala.

There may be a thousand scholars that disagree with me, I don't know.

In my opinion it is much more important that when I praise Allah ta'ala that he knows it is from my heart and that I know what I'm saying.

There is very little that Allah ta'ala asks us to do blindly, without any further knowledge.
The major ones being knowing that Allah ta'ala is the only God, do NOT commit shirk and equal others to his greatness and also accepting that the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is a messenger of Allah ta'ala.
Almost anything else, he will (if he chooses) forgive.
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#195 [Permalink] Posted on 4th February 2020 08:39
In Need of Teaching wrote:
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Quote:
However, I'm also sure that there are millions more that have simply memorized the surrahs and have either forgotten the meaning of them or never learned the meaning of it in the first place.

The latter is more accurate :(

Quote:
To say that rote memorization of words is more important than the deeper meaning and understanding of what you're saying, does not sound worthy of praising Allah ta'ala.

Might not necessarily be more important, but that is what it is. It is a miracle, solution, ointment, treatment, mercy and so on. So by reading it, those benefits will come with it.
Even the companions would ask the Prophet what is actually meant by some verses. And Allah mentions certain words and then He even says, "And you ask what is that" then He goes on to give an explanation.


I'll give you an example.

You know what Laailaha illallah means right? There is no God But Allah. But that's just tongue service. That's just what it says. One can do a thesis on its interpretation.

I'll try and go to into detail later or find an article on what I mean.

Another example.

When we marry, we are asked, "Do you take..... to be your wife"? And we say yes to those words, but what about its in depth meaning. i.e. What does that one word YES or two words I DO actually mean.? It means, You will take care of her, provide her with food, clothes, a place to live, respect, love, a happy life, have children by the will of God, be fair, be just, be caring, be affectionate, fulfil her rights in every form, be it in health, wealth or faith. To be with her in times of difficulty, at times of distress, at times of pain, at times of prayer. To keep her on the right path, not let her disobey commandments of Allah and His prophet. Not to look at other women, not neglect her and stay with mates watching the Lakers, not to talk ill of her, not to put her down in front of others, nor to herself, not to upset her, not to take from her whats hers, not to disobey Allah when providing for her, not give preference to her over the compulsory acts of worship and the list can go on and on to what that YES or I DO actually means.

When you say, "I DO" you've accepted all the T's and C's of the contract without reading them and without knowing what's to come.

So basically, reading just a few words does not give you an in depth understanding of what is really being said.

The Quran has meanings to it that we still don't understand or have not found and this will be the case till the end of times because as tech and knowledge moves on, we understand things much better. Hence why scientists are converting to Islam at a much faster pace. They are shocked to learn that what science discovers in current times, we've had it all along in the Quran but just didn't know what it meant or couldn't figure out it's deeper meaning, just the apparent meaning.

So please don't worry yourself on these matters. Take it as it comes and InshaAllah you will have better understanding as times goes on. And being a revert, I'm sure that you will surpass many born Muslim people in knowledge, action, intentions, understanding and so on.

Quote:
In my opinion it is much more important that when I praise Allah ta'ala that he knows it is from my heart and that I know what I'm saying.

Allah is much more Merciful and Knowing than you can imagine!

Even if you think of a praise for Allah, He knows it. And rewards you for it. In fact, if you intend to do something, He has it written down for you in your book of deeds and you start getting reward for that intention until you do and even if you don't don't end up doing it. On the flip side of it, if you intend to sin, could be anything small like raising your gaze at the wrong person, even then Allah will have it written down in your book of deeds because it's an intention and not a sin that has been committed. And if you do raise your gaze, Allah will order the Angels not to right it down for some time and give you the chance to repent. Such is the Mercy of Allah. A good intention goes on for so long and a bad intention is not noted until much later, SubhanAllah.
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