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#46 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 07:35
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Muslims being patriotic about a country whose foundation is on kufr is a completely different thing.


A Muslim is always patriotic to the country he is a citizen of.

Muslims are bound by Shariah to honor pacts, and our constitution is a pact with non Muslims, and it must be honored.
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#47 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 08:49
abuzayd2k wrote:
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At least its a muslim army.

Next thing you know, Muslims of one nation will blame Pakistan for their situation
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#48 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 09:20
I was looking for a solution.

In democratic country, there is a constitution. We cite the constitution and demand rights like, freedom to practice our religion etc. Good!!!

At the same time can we reject other part of constitution which says "don't stop any one from joining its Army"

So instead of half reject, half acceptable policy, let us do hijrah from the present place.
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#49 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 09:57

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Ignore Pakistan while discussing this issue because your brain will rebel on you for seeing the words.

IF the Ulama of India are advising:

  1. Indian Muslims to join the Indian Army and then obey orders which includes oppressing Kashmirees (and once you are in the Army you don't have a choice!)
  2. Indian Muslims to obey the Indian Constitution (no matter what)

Then it is WAAJIB (obligatory) on Indian Muslims to DISOBEY these "Ulama"

Why?

Replace the word "Indian" with "Israeli" in the above post and tell me what is your opinion? Should Palestinians join the Israeli Army and then oppress Palestinians?

I fully understand that some "Deobandees" will lash out and not get this but don't worry Modi has made sure that majority of Indian Muslims have understood it.

You can debate the issue all you want here, practically the issue is signed and sealed.

Thank You, Modi Sarkar

abuzayd2k wrote:
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Are the Palestinian citizens of Israel supposed to be patriotic towards Israel?
 
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#50 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 10:42
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Sir, I'm confused. Shouldn't we be listening to our ulama?
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#51 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 10:45

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No. Not when they tell you something which is against Islam.

Your obey Ulama as long as they tell you what is in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. Your obedience is to Allah Ta'ala and his Rasool (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam). 

Are you telling me that Palestinian citizens of Israel are duty-bound to be patriotic to Israel?

Just close your eyes and think! Based on your example of India.



 
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#52 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 10:53
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Sir, please help me out here. If not the ulama, who will be our ulul amr (people of authority)?

If we cannot trust our ulama to explain Sharia to us then who will explain it to us?
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#53 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 11:02

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Ulama and Ulu-Amr are two separate positions, they can be occupied by same set of people OR not. And by the way, the Ulama are not united upon the "loyalty to Gandhi-Jee" issue.

Hazrat (Maulana) Ashraf Ali Thanwi (RA) HATED Gandhi and BACKED Pakistan (i.e. a separate state for Muslims independent from Hindus)

So the simple answer for you is to follow the Ulama who are on the right track and not the ones who are mistaken. Ulama are humans.

You have not considered the question.

India: It is an obligation upon Indian Muslims to be patriotic and obey the constitution because it is an Islamic duty.

Israel: Does the same apply to Palestinian citizens of Israel?

Yes or No?

India is finished and it is a matter of time before it disintegrates. Keep your head down and go about your lives but India (as it is today) is over. Hundreds of thousands or may be millions will die before it fractures but its done.




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#54 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 11:20
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Quote:
Israel: Does the same apply to Palestinian citizens of Israel?

Yes or No?


If Palestinians and Israelis are at war, then why would Palestinians be patriotic to Israel?

We Indian Muslims are not at war with our Hindu brethren. However this is what some extremists in our country would have us believe.
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#55 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 11:30
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And since the silent majority follows Gandhian policy, Indian muslims could live peacefully practicing Islam for 70 years.

People who voted the present government won't fully support sarvarkar policy. Present govt came to power with different agendas; Many voted for anti-corruption campaign. some voted for stability because there was no alternative in opposition. Some voted due to patriotism and nationalism following Pulwama attack. Few states level political parties aligned with present govt are against Congress.

That sums up to; less than 20% support sarvarkar policy. And it is muslims duty to have good relation with the rest 80% who follow Gandhian policy.
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#56 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 11:39

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The entire essence of Israel is Anti-Islam and Anti-Muslim and there is no disagreement on the matter.

You are at war with them (ideologically) because this is what Allah Ta'ala has declared in the Qur'aan. Islam is diametrically opposed to Shirk.

Gandhi was a Mushrik so he could not lead you (a proclaimer of Tawheed) towards anything. It is a simple issue in Islam.

Once you remove Islam from the picture then you can take the stance which you are describing.

The "Ulama" have drilled this idea into your head DESPITE your own eyes witnessing what has been happening in India before and since 1947.

You are watching "Hindus" stand idly by from Hyderabad to Kashmir and Police actively inflict oppression on Muslims and "Ulama" telling you "No, this is a tiny minority so don't worry about it"

Islam has a FUNDAMENTAL OPPOSITION to Shirk.

Modi Sarkar has explained this to vast majority of Indian Muslims, those who blindly follow whatever the "elders" tell you will look at reality and offer themselves some explaination.

 
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#57 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 11:58
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Thank you, sir. This is the fundamental difference of opinion between the Thanvi and Madani groups leading up to the partition.

We will likely never see eye to eye on the matter because we both stand on different sides of the border.

Let me again iterate that it is an ijtehadi difference of opinion.

Each has its place in the world. It has enabled Pakistani Muslims to do what Indian Muslims could not, and it has enabled Indian Muslims to do what Pakistani Muslims could not, in the service of the Deen of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.
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#58 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 12:04
abuzayd2k wrote:
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Quote:
Each has its place in the world. It has enabled Pakistani Muslims to do what Indian Muslims could not, and it has enabled Indian Muslims to do what Pakistani Muslims could not, in the service of the Deen of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.


Like pak could not produce a Dr ZN.....
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#59 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 12:08

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Wallahi! It breaks my heart to say this but Allah Ta'ala DOES NOT like the preference of Shirk over Tawheed and there have been and will be consequences.

Do not look at the issue from the perspective of personalities but the issue itself and it is diametrically opposed to the foundations of Islam.

Allah Ta'ala DISLIKES Shirk and a Mushrik can NEVER be your friend.


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#60 [Permalink] Posted on 11th March 2020 12:24
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Sir, there is no argument here. Tawheed and shirk are diametric opposites. But the situation here in India is nuanced.

What is the responsibility of a Muslim to a fellow ummati who engages in shirk?

The vast majority of us Indian Muslims are those who some saintly muwahhid had pity on and invited us to Islam. How do we abandon our brothers and sisters who have not yet received the call to Islam?
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