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Pakistan vs India: Background, Conflict, Analysis

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Abdur Rahman ibn Awf, sipraomer
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#421 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 07:41
Arfatzafar wrote:
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That is enemity with India,just like India supported Mukti bahini in the then East Pakistan :)

You are free to support India on the issue of Khalistan and we will all appreciate your patriotism...

Not so on Kashmir.
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#422 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 09:15

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:
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Nice attempts to obfuscate but we are discussing the actions of Indian Muslims here so my discussion is about understanding their perspective.

They do have a perspective and they have reasons for their actions, you (I and others) disagree with them and that’s fine.

It is their country and a part of it is trying to break away with Pakistan’s help.

Your judgement is clouded with emotion otherwise it is a fairly straight forward issue to grasp

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#423 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 09:17
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#424 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 09:26
NEW DELHI — It was an inauspicious moment for a military the United States is banking on to help keep an expanding China in check.

An Indian Air Force pilot found himself in a dogfight last week with a warplane from the Pakistani Air Force, and ended up a prisoner behind enemy lines for a brief time.

The aerial clash, the first by the South Asian rivals in nearly five decades, was a rare test for the Indian military — and it left observers a bit dumbfounded. While the challenges faced by the India’s armed forces are no secret, its loss of a plane last week to a country whose military is about half the size and receives a quarter of the funding was still telling.

India’s armed forces are in alarming shape.

If intense warfare broke out tomorrow, India could supply its troops with only 10 days of ammunition, according to government estimates. And 68 percent of the army’s equipment is so old, it is officially considered “vintage.”

“Our troops lack modern equipment, but they have to conduct 21st-century military operations,” said Gaurav Gogoi, a lawmaker and member of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defense.



American officials tasked with strengthening the alliance talk about their mission with frustration: a swollen bureaucracy makes arms sales and joint training exercises cumbersome; Indian forces are vastly underfunded; and the country’s navy, army and air force tend to compete rather than work together.

In just a decade, United States arms sales to India have gone from nearly zero to $15 billion. But Pakistan can still draw on a powerful American-supplied arsenal.

However troubled its military, India holds an obvious strategic appeal to the United States by virtue of both its location and its size.

For India’s military, funding remains the biggest challenge. In 2018, India announced a military budget of some $45 billion. Last month, Delhi announced another $45 billion budget. The majority of the money goes to salaries for its 1.2 million active duty troops, as well as pensions. Only $14 billion will be used to buy new hardware. –New York Times
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#425 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 09:28

ALIF wrote:
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This was going to be the next analysis but the thread got hijacked due to events and fervour from both sides :lol

Alhumdolillah

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#426 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 10:05
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Please continue...

We will try to remain silent and wait for your next post :)

Indeed the thread started on a serious analytical note,but got hijacked by high nationalistic fervour.
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#427 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 10:13

Part 5: Military Confrontation and End Result

We are Muslims so we begin all analysis by looking into the Qur’aan and Sunnah for guidance. We reject all outwardly, logical and coherent conclusions and submit to the clear text of Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In the case of India, the die was cast by Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) 1400 years ago.

  1. There will be a war with India.
  2. India will disintegrate.

Wars are fickle and prolonged, there could be short term gains by India and surprises but the end result is inevitable.

Ahadeeth about India:

عَنْ ثَوْبَانَ مَوْلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ :  عِصَابَتَانِ مِنْ أُمَّتِي أَحْرَزَهُمَا اللَّهُ مِنْ النَّارِ : عِصَابَةٌ تَغْزُو الْهِنْدَ ، وَعِصَابَةٌ تَكُونُ مَعَ عِيسَى بْنِ مَرْيَمَ عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلَام

Sayyiduna Thawbaan(RA) , the freed slave of the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “There are two groups of my ummah whom Allah will protect from the Fire: a group who will conquer India, and a group who will be with ‘Eesaa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him) [an-Nasaa’i]

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رضي الله عنه قَالَ :  وَعَدَنَا رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ غَزْوَةَ الْهِنْدِ ، فَإِنِ اسْتُشْهِدْتُ كُنْتُ مِنْ خَيْرِ الشُّهَدَاءِ ، وَإِنْ رَجَعْتُ فَأَنَا أَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ الْمُحَرَّرُ

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) promised us that we would conquer India, so if I am martyred I will be among the best of the martyrs, and if I return then I am Abu Hurayrah the freed (protected from Hellfire). [Imam Ahmad in al-Musnad]

Interpretatation of Ahadeeth about India:

وقد غزا المسلمون الهند في أيام معاوية سنة أربع وأربعين ، وكانت هنالك أمور سيأتي بسطها في موضعها ، وقد غزا الملك الكبير الجليل محمود بن سبكتكين صاحب غزنة في حدود أربعمائة بلاد الهند ، فدخل فيها ، وقتل ، وأسر ، وسبى ، وغنم ، ودخل السومنات ، وكسر الند الأعظم الذي يعبدونه ، واستلب سيوفه ، وقلائده ، ثم رجع سالما مؤيدا منصورا

وما ذكر في حديث أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه الذي رواه نعيم بن حماد من غزو الهند ؛ فهو لم يقع إلى الآن ، وسيقع عند نزول عيسى بن مريم عليهما الصلاة والسلام ، إن صح الحديث بذلك . والله أعلم

The Muslims invaded India at the time of Mu‘aawiyah, in 44 AH, and there occurred things which will be explained below. It was also invaded by the great ruler Mahmoud ibn Sabuktagin, the ruler of Ghaznah who conquered India around 400 AH. He invaded the land, where he killed, took prisoners, and captured booty. He entered Somnath where he broke the greatest idol that they used to worship, and he captured its swords and necklaces. Then he returned, safe and victorious. [Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah be pleased with him) in Al-Bidaayah wa’n-Nihaayah]

What is mentioned in the hadith of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah have mercy on him), which was narrated by Na‘eem ibn Hammaad, about the conquest of India has not happened up till now, but it will happen when ‘Eesaa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him) descends, if the hadith that says that is saheeh. And Allah knows best. [al-‘Allaamah Hammood at-Tuwaijri (may Allah have mercy on him) in Ithaaf al-Jamaa‘ah]

P.S: Next, we will turn to possible military confrontations and scenarios. 


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#428 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 13:48
@Muadh Khan:

Muadh_Khan wrote:
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2 battles have been mentioned in these ahadith:

* At the time of eesa :as:

* Battle in India: already fought in 44 and 400 hijri

you mean 3rd and final battle is yet to be fought in India....?

And according to narration of ibn Hammad battle of India will be fought by Hz eesa :as: it means both are same.

Is it not a contradiction...?

Whereas 2/3 users said that ghazwatul hind will be fought by Pakistan and Afghanistan against India...?

Ghazwa: the battle which would be fought under the command of RasulAllah :saw:

saraya: In it sahabi would be commander in chief

and both are not possible now.
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#429 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 15:21
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#430 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 15:29
Arfatzafar wrote:
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Looks like vikram sood(the former head of RAW)knows about Ghazwa e hind more than you do :p

“If US troops exit Kabul, and the Taliban holds sway, Pakistan could unleash ‘Ghazwa-e-Hind’ against India”
VIKRAM SOOD
Ref:ORF
www.google.com.pk/url?sa=i&source=undefined&a...
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#431 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 15:56
Pakistan may take "decisive action" against all proscribed organisations, including Jaish-e-Muhammed (JeM), and even withdraw its opposition to the move to list terror outfit's chief Masood Azhar in the UN Security Council terror list, according to a media report on Sunday.

The US, the UK and France on Wednesday moved a fresh proposal in the UN Security Council to designate Pakistan-based chief Azhar as a global terrorist, a listing that will subject him to global travel ban, asset freeze and arms embargo.

In a major policy decision, Pakistan is set to take decisive action against all proscribed organisations as well as against the head of banned JeM, a senior security official familiar with the development quoted as saying by the Express Tribune.
www.theweek.in/news/world/2019/03/03/pak-may-withdraw-its...
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#432 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 15:59
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My post is about hadith and its interpretation.
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#433 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 16:18
Arfatzafar wrote:
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Can Prophet Eesa عليه السلام not be considered a Sahabi?

He met Prophet Muhammad (saw) in mi'raj in a state of Imaan and will die in a state of Iman!

I'm not sure of the authenticity of this narration, but it's implying what I'm asking.

Quote:
Imam Al-Dhahabi said: "Jesus, the son of Mary is a Prophet and a Companion, for he saw Prophet Muhammad ﷺ during the night journey and greeted him. Therefore, he will be the last companion to die."
Asqalani, al-Isabah; Suyuti, al-Hawi
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#434 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 16:33
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I read an article on Ghazwa e Hind by Hussain Haqqani, the Pakistani diplomat who was exposed as a CIA agent.

He cites the position of some Ulemah of India on ghazwa e hind
I remember the name of molvi Waris Mazhari a graduate of Deoband. I cant remember the names of the others.

These Indian Ulemah have taken 2 main positions. One group clamis the ghazwa e hind has already taken place centuries ago.The second group dismiss the hadith altoghether and claim it is fabrication.

Furthermore you have also the Ulemah denying that the Kashmir conflict is a Jihad..claiming it has nothing to do with Islam. And the conflict is mereley a dirty political game. Thus denying the verese of the Quran and Hadith about helping the oppressed and the numerous instances ln history where muslims waged Jihad in order rescue muslims fron tyranny and oppression.

The Indian media and political commentators along with Hindu Extremists...bring up the issue of Jihad in Kashmir, and cite the narration of ghazwa e hind along with it. In order too question the loyalty of Indian muslims to India.

The Indian Ulemah in response have come up with strange opinions in the face of this hostility.

That why you have these Indian Muslim nationalists parroting tgese opinions. " Kashmir has nothing do with Islam , Its a game of dirty politics." "Ghazwah of Hind has already happened and its just Pakistani propoganda".

Just as some scholars in America have come up with an American Islam in order to fit in as a minority.

The Indian Ulemah are coming up with opinions to fit in with the sentiments of the Indian majority.

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#435 [Permalink] Posted on 4th March 2019 16:51
Like I said before, it's absolutely hilarious what people will do to try and avoid taking the responsibility of Jihad upon themselves. Some people are in for a rude awakening.

This is the kind of thing I had feared in my mind with all the "peace" talk, even amongst the Pakistanis. I mean, I obviously wasn't there when the Bani Israel uttered their infamous line of blasphemy to Prophet Moses (AS), but in my mind there was a picture of the Bani Israel talking in the same way that we are doing right now before they said those words to the Prophet (AS). Like they might have been like "let's not go to war with the enemy yet, we can sort this out through peaceful means, etc." Then from there they must have finally gone to "you and your Allah go and do Jihad". I hope I am terribly wrong but I just fear that a section of our ummah will be going from wanting peace to "you and Allah go and do Jihad" or something similar. Especially since if I am not mistaken, there is a hadith, the gist of which is that the Muslim ummah will be put in similar situations as the Bani Israel. Or something like that. I may be wrong.

I wish to be dead before I have to see that day.
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