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The Grand Debate: Muadh Khan v xs11ax

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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 14th February 2019 14:33
bint e aisha wrote:
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Reminded me of this thread Anti Ageing Cream

Personally, I find that those who stress on how well they look, they get all the spots :)

I keep telling my family members to recall when they had seen a spot or pimples on my face. I don't say I don't get any due to Salah etc, I tell them I don't put all those chemicals on my face in the first place. Just plain water and dry with a towel :)
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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 14th February 2019 14:39
abu mohammed wrote:
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You don't get them because you're a man who has passed teenage. Girls do get them be it Muslim or non-Muslim. One can say that Salah reduces stress and it helps to restore hormone imbalance which in turn can help with acne problem but Maulana has exaggerated aloooooot.
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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 14th February 2019 14:45
bint e aisha wrote:
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I didn't get teenage spots like many of the teeenagers in school when I was young. Had I said, "I keep telling my wife and children" then you could've assumed that I was talking about it in adulthood.

The occasional spot - Yes, everyone gets them.

The worst spots on my face ever were mosquito bites :(
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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 14th February 2019 16:29
Brother x11ax's preference for a practising brother was probably said without much thought. It's just a natural inclination. It need not stem from barakah or him wanting to give business to his brother. It could simply be down to the fact that a true practising brother is a trustworthy one, or other valid reasons. Any believer with healthy Iman would say the same as x11ax.

Expertise is a separate thing altogether. A non-muslim could have more expertise in hijama. No doubt x11ax would concede to this fact so there's nothing to discuss on this point. But I doubt x11ax would go for a non-muslim one unless he's the last hijamist alive. Similarly, a non-practising brother could have more expertise in hijama. But because of his dishonesty and carelessness with Allah, he's also more likely to be dishonest, take shortcuts, and fleece you. Nowadays, every field is full of conmen. A practising and trustworthy brother is definitely worth seeking out especially in this day and age, even if it turns out that a lying drunkard has ten times more expertise.

So it's natural the brother would express an inclination for a practising brother. There's nothing unusual about it that should send alarm bells ringing.

On the other hand, if x11ax came out saying that he prefers a non-muslim or sinning brother to do his hijama, it would probably be worth raising a fuss then and create a thread like this to discuss his very serious issues.
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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 14th February 2019 17:08
As Muslims we believe that Hijama is merely the means of cure. The cure itself comes from Allah. If He wills it, we'll be cured, if He doesn't, then no amount of treatment can help us. We get the Hijama done and wait for Allah's help. The question that arises here is that does Allah's help come if we get the Hijama done by ANYONE, with our intention being that it is a Sunnah cure? Meaning is the mere act of adopting a Sunnah method sufficient to invoke Allah's help? Or do we believe here that a righteous(practicing Muslim) person doing the Hijama will be a better means of invoking Allah's help? Does it even make a difference?
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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 14th February 2019 17:12
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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We are still on Phase 1 of the discussion.

You are looking for a “practising Brother for Cupping”.

For me phase one and two is the same. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I was looking for hijamah to confirm if there is outside influence and from there decide if ruqya is required or not. As for why hijamah, it is because I have been lead to believe that certain qualities of the blood extracted through hijamah can determine if there is outside influence. I thought this was from the Quran and the sunnah. I am not so sure now.

I accept that you “may think” that practising equates to excellence in delivery of Service
I accept that you “may wish” to spend your money on practising Muslims
I accept that there may be “Barakah” at the hands of practising Muslims
I am still looking for a technical reason for your choice, either from medical or Islamic point of view as to why you need a “practising Brother” for cupping.

Because that is the only way I know how to determine if the practitioner is going to use methods that are not haram, bidah, against the Quran and the sunnah and as you mentioned, not going to take Allah out of the equation and invite jinns and shayateen into the equation. If you know of any other method to determine this then please let me know.


I am claiming that Nabi (Sallalaho Alaihe Wassallam) referred a Sahabi (RA) to the best known physician of a particular disease and he was “Non-Muslim”, nowhere in the compendium of Qur’aan and Sunnah it commands you to look for a “practising Brother” for medical advice.

Did Prophet (saw) refer anyone to non Muslims or kafirs for ruqya?

I am saying that you have the “personal choice” but not an “Islamic obligation or necessity” of any kind.

You can give your technical or Islamic reason OR say that it is my personal choice (and in that case we don’t have a debate).

Its my personal choice because I do not understand this issue and I feel no one has adequately explained it to me, so I would rather be cautious lest I fall into the wrong hands.

The reason I am asking is technical expertise does not equate to Islamic practise they are two separate issues when it come to cupping. Simply put, a brother trusted by you may take a weekend cupping course and be ready for cupping in 1 week BUT NO WAY will he be as good as someone who has been doing it for 15 years regularly and frequently.

If it was merely about taking bad blood out then I would not have any problem going to other people. But for me its not merely about taking out blood, its about the sunnah and seeking Allah's help through the sunnah. So I would rather go to someone practicing who will put his faith in Allah and have the correct intention while doing it.


By placing this condition (instead of looking for the best practitioner) you are restricting your choice. I other words, you are willing to drive 200 miles to get to someone who has weekend training in cupping instead of someone who is an expert with 15 years of experience in delivering quality of care.

I already know a brother who is on the sunnah and lives in Bradford who I go to for general hijamah. But I don't think he has a very good understanding of hijamah. Hence why I am not going to him for this.


It is your personal choice but I am going out of my way to point out that you have turned your religious into Judaism. Islam does not place any such restrictions on treatment IF it is indeed treatment which you need.

Again my issue is finding the right person. Someone who has faith in the power of Allah. Someone who is on the deen. Someone who follows the sunnah. Someone who's intention is right. Someone who is trustworthy. Someone who knows what he is doing. Someone who has not been lead astray by the jinns and shayateen.

You have made an assumption that you are affected by a certain issue

Correct. This assumption is not baseless.


You have then made an assumption that a certain form of treatment works

Correct. I assumed it was based on the Quran and sunnah. Not so sure now.

You have then made an assumption that this treatment can only come from a certain practitioner with certain aspects (other than his primary expertise).

I am open to the idea that there is the possibility that other practitioners who do not meet my criteria can help, but the problem is that the only way that I can judge them is through the Quran and the sunnah. If you have a different method then let me know.


To top it all, you are also admitting that you are not an expert in this area so you will not be able to judge whether the treatment is needed, viable or even effective.

Correct. That is why the only thing I can be sure of is to judge using the Quran and the sunnah. I have no other way to judge.


I also gave you a practical example that even in acupressure, they talk about detection of Black Magic/Nazar because the biology of human body is universal, unless you think that bodies of Muslims are different in some way.

How do I know if they have taken out the equation of Allah and replaced it with jinn and shayateen?


We are not discussing Ruqya yet, we are still on cupping.

I was discussing cupping as a means towards ruqya based on my assumption that outside influence can be detected through cupping based on my assumption that this understanding was through the Quran and the sunnah. I am not so sure now.

P.S: I am still baffled.

About what?

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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 14th February 2019 17:21
xs11ax wrote:
For me phase one and two is the same.


Nevertheless, Muadh is giving us all food for thought. Very important too. Alhumdulillah
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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 14th February 2019 17:31
Muadh wrote:
P.S: I am still baffled.

xs11ax wrote:
About what?

Muadh tends to take things from the top and break it down to get to the next level.

His methods prove he is an IT expert and works on algorithms :)

Many of us are not experts and we mix everything up and can't express ourselves properly. We start from the bottom and work our way up (or the other way round)

Since Muadh has not passed this answer in the algorithm, he is unable to grasp your concept or thinking, hence he is still baffled. (light heartedly) He wants you to understand the algorithm and get all the fact right and in order before jumping to your conclusion.

You might think I'm pulling your leg, but honestly, I think this is the reality. Until the box does not confirm the next possiblity, he will not move on.

Some people are able to process everything and can read in-between the lines, or predict what will happen next, so they jump to conclusions. Many times they are correct whilst many times they fail.

Muadh's method is logical and educational, whilst others are conjecture, conclusive, spiritual or fairy tales.
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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 15th February 2019 04:51
abu mohammed wrote:
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Muad khan,in my opinion,has studied,digested and absorbed Ml Ashraf Ali Thanvi RA to the extent that their ways of thinking have become similar...

This is my analysis,which can be wrong,and it will be hard even for Muad khan to admit,or he may not be aware of it himself...

Books are like living things and reflect the personality of the writer,specially when studied at some particular stage of life when mind is somehow more receptive.I apologise for making such a direct comment,but it often leaves me pleasantly surprised when I read his posts,and find the striking similarities in approach :)

Those who doubt my analysis can read 'Tarbiyyat us salik' of Hazrat Thanvi RA and find the similarities for themselves,the same insistence on the 'essence' of the subject,the same irritation about ambiguity in statements,the same impatience with confusing arguements,the same feeling of helplessness when the other party fail to understand or does not even try to understand.....

I have apologised in advance,so hopefully I will be saved from the wrath of Muad khan :p
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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 15th February 2019 06:24
MashaAllah.
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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 15th February 2019 06:34
Assalamu alaikum warahmatullah

Q. Is hijamah similar to other medical treatments in which we seek medical experts regardless of their religion OR is it preferable to only look out for practicing Muslims since it is a Sunnah way of treatment?


Mufti Ismail Moosa: Wassalam,

The preferred view according to us is that cupping can be done monthly with the intention of Sunnah. The Sunniyyat is in the cupping itself, and a Kaafir may do the cupping. However, for a female, she needs to conceal herself from non Muslim females, and hence she should try to get a Muslimah to do the cupping.

However, if cupping is done for medical reasons, then the laws of a female going to a Doctor will apply...i.e permissible if no other doctor is available etc.

And Allah knows best.
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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 15th February 2019 06:57
bint e aisha wrote:
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So basically a pious Muslim person doing the Hijama is not a prerequisite.
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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 15th February 2019 07:06
fod1083 wrote:
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Yes that's what Mufti Sahab said.
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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 15th February 2019 10:24
abu mohammed wrote:
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Algorithms and Fiqh

Correct intention assertion

• Washing the face

• Washing the arms up to the ankles

• Wiping parts of the head

• Washing the feet including the heels

• Doing all this in the above givensequence


Step3:washing arms up to ankles ?
Should be elbows instead.
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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 15th February 2019 10:28
ALIF wrote:
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This equates to Wudhu INVALID.

What an amazing algorithm.

(jzk, will edit and add you to that section too)
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