What to do when someone reads fabricated hadith?

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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 30th December 2018 17:01

xs11ax wrote:

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That is quite unfortunate. Maybe things have changed since you were involved but I have honestly never experienced this as yet in my time with the saathis. Infact, I have found them to be some of the most diverse ones with respect to deen. Attempting to give time to all aspects of deen. Be it dawah, or tazkiyah or academic. And many of the saathis I know, who would otherwise have been quite docile, are now pumped up for a Jihadi effort after spending time in jamaat.

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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 30th December 2018 17:03

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Agreed.

I spent my first 40 days 25 years ago and we genuinely believed that we are making so many sacrifices for the Deen and these Ulama are doing nothing and also people. Our hearts and minds were filled with such superiority that we felt pity on those whom we were giving Dawah to because we were so much superior to them (due to making effort).

That was the reality.

The Sufees and Hazrat Worshippers of today (are us of yesterday), all of them have guarantee of paradise because of their Hazrats and Tareeqas and because they are engaged in ISLAH while other (unfortunate, unlucky, wretched Muslims) are unconcerned of their Islah.

P.S: You know (such and such) left the Tareeqa and he was telling me that (current) Mureeds don't even reply to his Salam!

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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 30th December 2018 17:28

Muadh_Khan wrote:

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P.S: You know (such and such) left the Tareeqa and he was telling me that (current) Mureeds don't even reply to his Salam!

Yes I know about that.

When I left tj one tablighi would swear at me when driving past in his car. Another wanted to fight me on the masjid steps lol. But he backed down when I called his bluff. Both have left tabligh now though. One of them came to ask forgiveness.

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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 30th December 2018 17:51

Regarding the point of being muqalids and therefore being allowed to follow an opinion that the hadith isn't too weak to be quoted, then this would only be in those cases where some qualified Ulama presented a case for such narrations to be suitable to be quoted. We can't just assume that because an Alum wrote the hadith in a book he analyzed the hadith as opposed to just quoting it from somewhere else. Therefore I think it would be better to pass on the information from the alims who say such a hadith isn't suitable to quote, and then the person who quoted the hadith is free to research the other side and see if there is really a difference of opinion. I think People also need to be aware of the weakness of the hadith, so they don't make the contents of the hadith into a major principle of Islam or a very emphasized action.

As for the claim that there are no fabricated hadith in fazail e amal, I would have to double check, but I am sure I read from deobandi Ulama of a few hadith from fazail e amal which have no chain and some that are very very weak and shouldn't be quoted as hadith.

I find when people are defending fazail e amal, they aren't fair. They should also mention the few hadith therein that have no chains of narrations, and acknowledge that some would consider some of the hadith to be very weak, even if there is a difference of opinion.

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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 30th December 2018 17:54

fod1083 wrote:

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You are fortunate to have such a circle. May Allah keep you and us all in the company of knowledgeable. Sometimes it feels that the deeni works are somehow being hijacked.

I have myself read the malfuzaat of Maulana Ilyas Rh where it is clearly stated that when he used to return from dawah work , he would sit in khanqah for three days and do dhikr so that the dirt which had gotten in his heart by meeting other people, would be removed by the medicine of dhikr.

He also used to worry that are tablighis benefiting the company of the pious and ulema or just engaging in tabligh and forgetting everything else.

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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 30th December 2018 18:24

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There is a saying in urdu. "Jaisa munh waisa thaparh". You can't make a set rule for everyone. You have to first see the situation and the person whom you are talking to. Sometimes correcting others can create greater problems. Also if the need of correcting is greater then some tactics must be used.

I remember an incident which I read a very long time ago. Once Syeddina Hussain RA or Hassan RA was making ablution. An old man was also making ablution nearby him but he was making some mistake. Syeddina Hussain RA asked him to see him making wudu and tell that is he (Syeddina Hussain RA) making the wudu correctly. When the old man saw him making wudu, he realized that it was he who was wrong. So he accepted his mistake and corrected it.

As I said before, there are many ways of saying the same thing. It is better to correct someone separately with politeness or in an indirect speech. Also it depends what relationship you have with that person. You can't correct your co worker or a stranger like a teacher corrects his student or a father corrects his son. There are many things to consider. Yes Amr bil maruf and nahi anil munkar are fardh but there are certain rules of it too.

And speak to him with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear [ Allah ]." (20:44 Quran)

Once a secular minded friend of mine was accusing Orya Maqbool Jan Sahab of doing something wrong during his service and now he speaks about Islam. I instead of defending Orya Sahab, said to him that the door of taubah is always open. He smiled and agreed to me. If would have instead started defending Orya Sahab, he wouldn't have listened to me and would do false accusations and do more gheebah. So the way I handled him reduced the damage and made him change his opinion.

At the end, it's the opinion which you want to change no matter what way you choose.

We need to learn human psychology in order to become better da'aees.

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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 30th December 2018 18:28

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"Jaisa munh waisa thaparh"

Lol! Good job no one told me this saying 20 years ago. I would have had so much fun slapping and irritating my friends lol!!

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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 31st December 2018 00:13

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You have assumed a monumental matter which is not claimed. This is what I am saying:

There is nothing fabricated according to Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Zakariyya Kandhalwi (RA) in his book. A Muqallid can make Taqleed of him and rely on HIS opinion as being a Muhadith. Thus a Muqallid reading his book in his (original) Urdu words without taking anything away or adding will not be sinful. A person paraphrasing his book or not stating his (exact) words is obviously not quoting him! Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Zakariyya Kandhalwi (RA) clarified these issues in his lifetime.
In original Urdu Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Zakariyya Kandhalwi (RA) makes subtle and explicit hints at weakness of narrations and even fabrications as per the tradition of Scholars of Hadeeth. The most blatant example is the narration about fifteen punishments in Fazail-e-Namaaz, I suggest all to read the original Urdu and then read the English translation. You will clearly notice that the English translation lacks the blatant hints which are written into Urdu! Since he (RA) wrote the book in Urdu, it is clear in Urdu; it is blatantly hinted in Arabic!

Once you have understood what is being (factually) stated, feel free to disagree but as always disagree based on stated facts and not assumptions.

P.S: It is the practise of scholars of Hadeeth that they subtly hint at the weakness in chains of transmissions by using certain words and scholars of Fiqh often also do the same. These subtleties are lost in translations but some good translations add footnotes to point them out. Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Zakariyya Kandhalwi (RA) was a human and Fazail-e-Amaal is NOT the Qur'aan so mistakes and errors can happen

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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 31st December 2018 00:49

Quote:

There is nothing fabricated according to Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Zakariyya Kandhalwi (RA) in his book. A Muqallid can make Taqleed of him and rely on HIS opinion as being a Muhadith. Thus a Muqallid reading his book in his (original) Urdu words without taking anything away or adding will not be sinful. A person paraphrasing his book or not stating his (exact) words is obviously not quoting him! Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Zakariyya Kandhalwi (RA) clarified these issues in his lifetime.

Yes the person may not be sinful, but if Shaykh did make a mistake, wouldn't it be better for readers to be aware of this mistake?

If there is nothing fabricated according to Shaykh, but yet there is a hadith that has no known chain of narration, then what do we do, still insist that the hadith is suitable to quote because Shaykh included it In the book and according to him there is nothing fabricated in the book? ( I am not accusing you of saying this I am asking a question)

Now if an author claims he hasn't included any fabricated hadith in his book, he could have still made a mistake. If others find a hadith they deem fabricated and the author merely quoted the hadith but made no arguments for its authencity, then cant it be said that the author erred? The author is no longer alive to argue his position , or retract his position, so unless someone else is able to prove that it isn't a fabrication, why shouldn't we go with those who say the hadith is fabricated? Yes if there is difference of opinion and arguments on both sides, then we can say perhaps the Shaykh was of the same opinion of those who accept the hadith.

For example we would assume a scholar like Mufti Taqi Uthamani wouldn't use an extremely weak hadith to establish something or attribute something to the Rasul salalahu alayhi wasalam. Now there are a couple cases where he did something similar and later retracted when corrected. Perhaps Shaikh Zakariya r.a. would have also retracted, so we shouldn't assume that because he was a muhadith and said there are no fabricated hadith in his book the matter is closed. I take your point of the reader no being sinful.

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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 31st December 2018 01:52

Concerned wrote:

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OMD!

Can't you read?

ORIGINAL URDU version isn't what we have today. Today's books have stuff added and removed.

Dude, watch or listen to that video linked, pretty decent evidence in there

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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 31st December 2018 02:54

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Yes sorry I didn’t initiallly get what Muadh said here:

Quote:

A person paraphrasing his book or not stating his (exact) words is obviously not quoting him! Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Zakariyya Kandhalwi (RA) clarified these issues in his lifetime.

But the question is, if In the Urdu version it is clearly hinted that these narrations maybe fabricated or very weak, then many Urdu readers certainly don’t get it. Because many of those who mention such narrations in their talks also take part in Urdu Taleem and read the book in Urdu, hence they should be aware of the authors comments regarding such narrations.
I have also read some defenses of Fadail e Amal in English by those fluent in Urdu, and they have not clarified that some narrations may be extremely weak or fabricated.

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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 31st December 2018 09:23

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

There are so many hadith which are not ambiguous in their meaning and strength which are accepted by all of the able sunnah. Why not just use them? Why use ambiguous hadith that then need to be further explained in a book that is meant for laymen? Even in my tablighi days while doing taleem I couldn't understand the need to have to go through technical explanation of the hadith. The explanation of the ambiguity usually goes over the head of the reader and listeners as it didn't hold much importance or relevance to them.

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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 31st December 2018 12:04

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They are not meant to, they are laymen and NOT scholars of Hadeeth. If they have knowledge and/or sound knowledge OR are trained then they can easily. The way a physician writes a prescription, laymen are not meant to pick up hints but a pharmacist can while dispensing medication.

You are not grasping the fundamental issue that the laymen are neither sinful nor responsible as they are merely Muqallids (or novices in the fields).

Forget Fazail-e-Aamal, Al-Adab Al-Mufrad of Imam Bukahri (RA) has weak Ahadeeth and fabricated (according to others)…Imam Bukhari (RA) did not insert fabrications in his book deliberately but one would hope that Imam Bukhari (RA) knew about weak narrations…

https://www.central-mosque.com/index.php/Hadeeth/al-adab-al-mufrad-by-imam-bukhari-ra.html

Shaykhul-Hadeeth (Maulana) Zakariyya Kandhalwi (RA) was a gigantic scholar of Hadeeth and he knew what he was doing and for whom. He didn't write on a forum!

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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 31st December 2018 12:37

Sister, can you kindly post the narration in question.

Please.

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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 31st December 2018 13:03

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Assalamu alaikum

Random version:
The one who disdains the prayers will receive fifteen punishments from Allah. Six punishments in this lifetime Three while dying , Three in the grave & Three on the Day of Judgement.

THE SIX PUNISHMENTS OF LIFE:

1. Allah takes away blessings from his age(makes his life misfortunate)
2.Allah does not accept his plea(Du’aa)
3.Allah erases the features of good people from his face.
4.He will be detested by all creatures on earth.
5.Allah does not award him for his good deeds.(No thawab)
6.He will not be included in the Du’aa of good people.

THE THREE PUNISHMENTS WHILE DYING:

1. He dies humiliated.
2. He dies hungry.
3. He dies thirsty. Even if he drinks the water of all seas he will still be thirsty.

THE THREE PUNISHMENTS IN THE GRAVE:

1. Allah tightens his grave until his chest ribs come over each other.
2. Allah pours on him fire with embers.
3. Allah sets on him a snake called “the brave”,”the bold” which hits Him from morning until afternoon for leaving Fajr prayer,from the afternoon until Asr for leaving Dhuhr prayer and so on. With each strike he sinks 70 yards under the ground.

THE THREE PUNISHMENTS ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT:

1. Allah sends who would accompany him to hell pulling him on the face.
2. Allah gives him an angry look that makes the flesh of his face fall down.
3. Allah judges him strictly and orders him to be thrown in hell.

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What to do when someone reads fabricated hadith?

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