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#46 [Permalink] Posted on 24th December 2018 19:14
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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It's a religious discussion group and my intention to visit the group is to give them dawah. It has Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Atheists, Deists, Agnostics, Satanists and others. I only rarely take part in discussions and it is mostly with Christians because there's a lot of stuff we can discuss with Abrahamics. It helps me to relate to the Qur'an much better and to understand the feelings of Prophets علیهم الصلاة والسلام.

But I have intention to leave inshaAllah.
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#47 [Permalink] Posted on 24th December 2018 19:22
I am traveling and can't comment on this thread. I've got a lot to add and also answer Peer Muadh Sb. :)

Hopefully this thread doesn't disappear in a couple of days, just like every other thread keeps on disappearing on which I try to add something.

The Digital Ummah video is the tip of the iceberg, not even 5% of the stuff.
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#48 [Permalink] Posted on 24th December 2018 19:40
Muadh_Khan wrote:
Satanists are basically hedonists and they follow hedonistic pursuits, that’s the truth. Muslims (and Christians) believe them to be in actual communication with and working with the devil…some may be but 99.99999% are not!

Yes I know Muslims think like that but the person I asked the question to is a LaVey Satanist. They are Atheists and also deny the existence of Satan. They call it a fictional being and see it as a symbol of enlightment.
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#49 [Permalink] Posted on 24th December 2018 22:10
bint e aisha wrote:
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السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

You should leave that group immediately! Don't even think about it. Don't go back! I swear this is the best advice anyone can give you on this.
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#50 [Permalink] Posted on 24th December 2018 23:46
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#51 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 02:02
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وعلیکم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

I left.
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#52 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 04:07
Question for those who are proficient in science and very knowledgeable

What is academic achievement of Muslims living in the West. Especially those who are fond of bashing the third world very often.

Please name a single Noble Prize Winner among the Western Muslims.

Please name a single Invention of significance and importance which has greatly impacted the world invented by a Muslim scientist living in the West.

Please name a single institution created by Western Muslims which has greatly helped this ummah education wise.

What is the contribution of those who have access to high quality educational institutions and facilities run by kuffar for the betterment of this ummah?
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#53 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 07:24
Before anyone cites examples of high achieving Muslims I want to make it clear that the point that brother sipraomer and I are making is not about achievements like who has been able to copy the Western intellectuals best, but rather achievements in the sense of original achievements. Like a Muslim becoming a nuclear scientist overseas and then coming back to his country to help build the nuclear bomb. While that is an achievement but it is still a case of working off of the scraps of the kuffar. They did all the hard work and we copied their style. Name something original by a modern Muslim that the kuffar are working off of.

As far as Ummah being in a state of mess because of its skepticism of modern technology and science, I'd have to say that is so far off the mark that I don't even want to get into it. I just have to quote Hazrat Umar (RA):
“We were the most humiliated people on earth and God gave us honour through Islam. If we ever seek honour through anything else, God will humiliate us again.”

That is all we need to know why the Ummah is a mess. No other reason. In the ways of Prophet SAW lies the success of this world and the hereafter. Even when the time of Jihad comes, we will never be winning on the basis of numbers or weaponry but on the basis of the strength of our emaan.


There is a parallel that I want to draw attention towards regarding this issue of science and technology. Just like there exists parallels in the universe regarding certain things like the macro universe (space) and the micro universe (atoms, molecules, etc.) working in pretty much a similar fashion, I believe the realms of knowledge work in a similar way. On the one hand we had Asif, a companion of Prophet Sulaiman (AS) who had explored the depths of purity to such extent that he was given knowledge and ability by Allah which were hitherto unknown to humans. He teleported himself as we know using the knowledge given by Allah. Similar karamaat have been attributed to the akabireen of our deen. These feats would have marveled the people of those times and they would have demanded to know the secrets behind them. And these men of Allah could have easily turned these karamaat into some sort of "scientific advancement" and sold it as such. For those times that would have been an exciting and unknown possibility but they knew that the only science they should concern themselves with was that it was happening by the will of Allah and Allah alone and that the purpose of their existence was to worship Allah, not to explore the exciting possibilities that the universe holds within itself. Sure, discovering the wonders of the universe would bring us closer to Allah but only if it is done through the ways of Prophet SAW, which we would know as spiritual Islam. Any other way that we adopt will bring us closer to the worldly life and not to Allah. That is my firm belief and personal experience as well.

On the other hand, I believe that the kuffar have explored the depths of impurity to such an extent that Shaytan has nudged them towards these very same exciting possibilities knowing full well that the kuffar would be all too willing to waste their time on such trivialities which would keep them away from the real purpose of life. Because for the kuffar this life is everything and they give so much importance to it that these exciting possibilities have now been named science and all their resources, time and energy is being directed towards exploring it to the fullest extent.
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#54 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 10:00

fod1083 wrote:
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The problem with your argument is that you have made Islam and modern technology mutually exclusive!

There was a time when Muslims did BOTH and inherently and fundamentally Islam does not have a problem with science or scientific knowledge or scientific paradigm.

Sayyiduna Umar (RA) NEVER advocated that Muslims should stay ignorant of these matters and NOBODY in Islam has ever expressed this including Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassalam). What him (RA) and others have correctly stated that success is in following the Deen of Allah Ta’ala and Sunnah of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam).

If you had read even a half of page of Islamic history then you would know that the Sahaba (RA) “innovated” in terms of military technology and medicine and other emerging technologies. Umar (RA) himself brought in many reforms such as Postal delivery, water systems to (travellers) and travelling inns etc.

Your opinions about science are affected by medieval Christianity and its understanding and attitude towards science.
Muslims have no precedence and opposition to science.

P.S: I am deliberately choosing not to engage with other opinions in this thread which are just ignorant. If you are also ignorant of Islamic Shariah, history and science simply state so and move on so you can save us all time. You are entitled to your opinion.

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#55 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 12:58
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With all due respect, sir, as knowledgeable and well-versed in all aspects of deen and dunya you are, I have found a shocking lack of acuity on your part as far as this matter is concerned. If Allah wills, the relevancy of my thoughts will be evident to you one day. Until then, I do not wish to debate this any longer since it is pointless and would only lead to circular statements, and I believe while the Muslim brothers need to take seriously much of what you say here, in this particular matter, you can be safely ignored. Not a big deal. We can't all be always right.

I am a man of the sciences myself and I have my own experiences, observations and conclusions to draw upon. I am not against scientific advancement at all nor do I think Islam discourages it. Many of the inventions and discoveries are what I believe to be truly beneficial like the ones you mentioned Hazrat Umar (RA) indulging in, but MOST of modern science I believe to have been largely influenced by Satanic forces whose one and only goal is to take the humans far away from the Creator and to lead towards their own ultimate destruction, for example, through nuclear weapons.
That said, this is to caution my own self. I never discourage Muslim youth from any scientific field, especially not on the basis of this. I want them to try it all out on their own.
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#56 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 13:13

fod1083 wrote:
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The incident relating to Asif (RA) [*if the attribution to his name can be taken authentically according to principles of Hadeeth] was a case of special powers granted by Allah Ta’ala. It CANNOT be gained by anyone except whom Allah Ta’ala specifically grants and Eemaan in Allah Ta'ala is a condition for it.

A doctorial research into stem cell is also knowledge granted by Allah Ta’ala but it can be learned by anyone with access, perseverance and hard work (*also granted by Allah Ta’ala but more in general sense], apply the same to any other field of science and Eemaan in Allah Ta'ala is a NOT condition for it.

The Deen of Islam and Sunnah of Nabi (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) clearly distinguishes the two areas and has commands pertaining to each.

You may have worldly knowledge in some field but unfortunately your reach of irrationality has exceeded your grasp of common sense

Your point is as futile as your callous way of expression.

The simplest argument is that there are PLENTY of practising Muslim scientists who are neither influenced nor affected by Shaytaan doing research into plenty of fields. There could be some who may be inspired by Shaytaan and there could be some who may be “devil worshippers” but it DOES NOT mean that they are in active communication with Shaytaan (some maybe)

* Before starting another futile argument and further proving your ignorance, read carefully and try to understand what I am saying.

P.S (to everyone else): You ask why people oppose me and here is an example! Here is another one with a hurt Nafs who will now go from thread to thread spewing venom and poison simply because he cannot articulate his position and refusing to accept his error in line of argumentation. Person has NO argument from Islam or Dunya perspective but his Nafs will not let him back down BECAUSE he may be a position of Dunya (or Deen) and not used to being challenged and pushed into a corner.

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#57 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 14:34
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

[Disclaimer: Following are just my thoughts and musings and may/will change based on opinions of others.]

Everything can be used and everything can be misused.

A society based on altruism will use science and technology for the betterment of that society.

A society based on selfishness will use science and technology for the betterment of the few even to the detriment of the masses.

A society based on haq will use science and technology for the betterment of that society in accordance with haq.

A society based on batil will use science and technology for the 'betterment' of that society in accordance with batil.

First we need to understand what kind of society we live in in order to understand what direction science and technology is and will be taking.

We definitely do not live in an altruistic society and we definitely do not live in a society that is based on haq, so we can leave them out.

We definitely live in a capitalist society that is based on selfishness which aims to favour the few in detriment of the many.

We very likely live in a society that is based on batil which aims to influence the people away from the haq and away from the recognition of Allah.

So in my current understanding so far, science and technology will be influenced by one or more of the above and maybe even other situations which I have not explored.

Regardless of what society we live In, not everyone will be influenced by that society the same. Some will be influenced more, some will be influenced less, and some won't be influenced at all. But the last group will be few. But one thing I believe is true is that almost everything and everyone will follow the plan laid down in the foundations of that society.

Allah knows best.


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#58 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 14:54

xs11ax wrote:
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www.muftisays.com/forums/14-peoples-say/12164-inflammator...

The researchers mentioned in your post are not Muslims. It is incorrect to judge their intentions based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah because they don’t believe in it. It is entirely possible that they have done this research for materialistic gain OR it is entirely possible that they have done it with a strong inclination to benefit mankind.

It is ABSURD to believe that only direction from Shaytaan OR Dajjal could have led to this research. Literature review is the basis of any research and only an IGNORAMOUS who knows nothing about post-graduate research can come up with any other conclusions.

Each advancement is built upon previous body of research and knowledge, this is the bedrock of scientific advancement. In 10-15 years we will be talking about some other advancement based on what you have quoted to be “new research” in your posts.

The reason western based universities produce research is not because people in the West are intelligent and people in the East are stupid! It is because these universities provide tools for easier access and remove barriers to research. There is no Magic to it.

China wishes to be the leader and in many fields (AI, Stemcell etc) they have poured billions into research to catch up. The problem Chinese researchers had was low standards of ethical scrutiny so their papers were not taken seriously, over the past 5 years China has really tightened up their ethical boards and their (new) papers now follow really stringent ethical guidelines, NOT BECAUSE they want to but because they wish to be taken seriously!

The western (materialistic areas of research such as pharmacology etc) do have their own ethical standards and YES the research in certain fields is to MAKE MONEY and they tell you that clearly. When you seek admission for MSc or PhD in any western university you submit a number of topics OR certain topics (pre-sponsored) are available with funding. These topics are from industry leaders who want to solve some problem and that is why they are paying a Graduate student to do the research.

As I said, an IGNORAMOUS who has never done anything of that nature OR has never gone through the process will NOT know any of this.

In my MSc, we had 5 or 6 Pakistani (KPK) students funded by some NGOs from Pakistan. They were high ranking Pakistani civil servants and they were NOT stupid but they clearly lacked the tools to do literature review and critique existing papers and the Professor had to spend a lot of time with them, same was the case for other foreign students.

It is not the intelligence but ACCESS and TRAINING which they lacked.

I regularly meet and interact with foreign research students and NOT come across anyone who is STUPID, in fact the foreign students are more able due to life experiences but they do lack research access and training. Come to our Masjid and you can meet many foreign MSc and PhD students.

P.S: I am not calling you an IGNORAMOUS, just wanted to make it clear.

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#59 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 15:39
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Don't worry, I don't believe for one second that shaytaan and dajjal DIRECTLY influence ALL of society and advancements in society. It is possible that they do have direct influence on SOME parts of society which in turn has an effect on SOME other parts of society.

I do believe that society directly influences advancements in science, technology, medicine, warfare, etc. This stands to reason and I don't think anyone can argue with this.

I believe that society has influenced the direction taken by the medical sciences. Using Crohn's Disease as an example. Crohn's Disease is considered a relatively new disease and considered a western disease in that it is more prevalent in the West. Some non western countries are now seeing a surge in crohns disease due to an influence of western diets and lifestyles. Instead of addressing the cause of Crohns Disease medical science is geared towards managing the disease and not prevention. Prevention is to revert back to a non western lifestyle and a non western diet. But in doing so there is a loss of profit so this is not going to happen. So instead they have been trying to manage the disease. Now over 15 years ago it has been hypothesized that Crohn's disease is a bacterial disease and can be cured. But as the pharmaceutical industry was already profiting from this disease there was no motivation to explore this cure. So for many years people have been suffering. Recently a handful of scientists have got together with funding from the general public and have created a vaccine that could potentially cure this disease. The vaccine has been designed to be preventative as well as curative and could potentially be administered to all as a general vaccine. The pharmaceutical companies have seen the potential to profit from this and have bought the licence and have now started investing in the vaccine. So medical science and the potential to cure millions is limited by profit and greed. Prevention of the disease through lifestyle changes and dietary changes is prevented by profit and greed. Profit and greed directly affects medical sciences and the health of society.

Now if our society is a society based on profit and greed as it's foundation, then this foundation is going to affect almost everything within our society.

And if the basis of this profit and greed society is influenced by the very people at the top who are steering society in this direction, and if these people are being influenced by shaytaaan and Dajjal, then the whole of society including education, science, technology, agriculture, warfare, economy, politics, everything will have some influence of the devil and will always have some sort of corruption.
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I don't mind even if you do call me an ignoramus. I deserve it for saying you have become old when we met that day lol. But mashallah I was impressed by your biceps though.
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#60 [Permalink] Posted on 25th December 2018 15:57
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To a greater extent you have correctly understood what I am asking. However, to some extent you taken my questions out of context.

1. I was not good in science as a student. I am an arts person and a Graphic Designer and Video editor by profession. I didn't claim that I am an expert in science. I only quoted the things I read written by Mufti Abu Lubaba HA but after being corrected I retracted my words. Many times in this forum I have retracted from my opinions when given evidence. So this accusation that I fail to fill gaps in my knowledge hurts me. I think this is false accusation.

2. I am not against science. If I was against it I wouldn't have used internet and youtube, cell phone and camera etc. However, in order to prepare for the upcoming events, I strongly believe that without state funds and vast resources, there is no use in producing theoretical research papers and just producing "Kaghazi scientists". We don't have much time and these things take decades if not centuries. Without khilafah and state support study of science is useless as far as benefiting the ummah is concerned. Our first priority is to learn the zahir and batin of deen and prepare for the upcoming war in any way possible (mentally, physically and spiritually). Now my analysis runs around the arrival of Imam Mahdi and World war 3 so my arguments can be thought as pragmatic, childish and dogmatic because most of the mankind believes when the thing happens. If nothing happens within the next 12 years, I may change my thinking.

3. I have no evidence that satan is behind scientific progress of the kuffar apart from some documentaries so I have not entertained this idea much. However, the reason I have asked this question twice is that "Ok sir! You people are advanced than us because your parents decided to migrate for such and such reason. However, will cursing us and calling us names do any good. Will calling us stupid and ignoramus make you wise or feed your ego in any way? If we are backward, then come here and create an institution of high standards so that we can benefit with your expertise. If you can't or don't want to do this then be silent. What is the use of criticism when you can't provide or at least suggest a solution". Demoralization and unnecessary criticism is the worst thing one can do in these times.

4. I have clearly seen the failure of western research in Afghanistan during Soviet era and now the current war. So there are loop holes in their research and planning too. Science and technology is not everything. There are other realms which we also have to consider before jumping to conclusions.

Sitaron sey jahan aagey aur bhi hain
Abhi ishq ke imtihan aur bhi hain
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