Limits of retaliation

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 10th October 2018 19:48

Assalamu alaikum

If A insults B and B's religion of Islam or B's father , B can insult A back.

Can B hit A? Can B's colleagues hit A instead? If so how much damage can be inflicted? Where is the line drawn or can B be critically and permanently injured or killed in the name of honor and ghira?

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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 10th October 2018 19:53

Concerned wrote:

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Ask a scholar.

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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 10th October 2018 21:32

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no offence but do we need to ask such questions? it makes mockery of islaam. first of all we all know your referring to khabib. answer is if someone insulted you, ur dad, islam in front of your face will u just take it or lash out?

islam aint a pacifist religion that says turn other cheek. didnt imaam shafil رضي الله عنه say a man who doesnt get angry when provoked is a donkey. also look at sahaba. abubakr n umar especially رضي الله عنه got anyry and lashed out when Allah and his rasool were insulted. umar رضي الله عنه has a long list of times he asked to take of someones head who did or said something which was against islam. far as im concerned conor and his lot got off lightly.

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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 10th October 2018 23:42

Lol relax bro everyone was supposed to know who I was referring too. I don't follow sports but no one on Muslim social media could have remained unaware of the fight.

Scholars and influential Muslims from ALL backgrounds were hyped for the fight, and were joining in on the celebrations afterwards. Some hinted that it wasn't the ideal sport, most just made it seem as if the sport and watching it was absolutely fine, and some were sarcastic at those who questioned the permissibility of the sport. A handful made their stance on the sport clear, i.e. it wasn't permissible to take part nor watch.

I am not criticizing Khabib for his actions. In the heat of the moment and when provoked one can understand why people do certain things. Everyone isn't perfect. That doesn't mean what he did was automatically right. I don't have a position on this matter, I am here to learn.

I didn't ask if someone hit you can you hit them back. That would imply I was saying we should turn the other cheek.

You said they got off lightly, so what would have been the limit of retaliation? When would the line be drawn?

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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 07:51

The west is confound.

They do not understand what happened.

Can they not finally accept that we Muslims can not accept insults to Islam? And that is how it will remain. They can not be beaten into submission. They have already submitted to the Will of Allah SWT. After that no submission. This is the part of Muslim psyche, culture and mindset. They, the Muslims, discuss these things on the regular basis.

These arguments will be most offensive for the west but they got to hear these sooner or later, perhaps sooner. Of course no offense intended - this is Islam and that is how it is and that is how we are. No offense intended again.

Plus why should we over analyze everything? Can we not take the things on face value? Can we not take life as normal and routine?

Of course it is not a joke for Khabib. Whether it was spontaneous or planned I have no irritation at him. Let the world care for its TRPs but Islam they have ti leave alone.

With that proviso we too are part of the jumborie.

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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 07:53

like i said umar رضي الله عنه has happy to kill any1 who insulted islam. rasoolullah (saw)

hav kab bin ashfar assassinated for his comments about islam and muslim women. im not advocating going that far but one must show its not acceptable. on the flip side if muslims dont ever react then it will only lead the non muslims to be even more vile. they are just testing the waters. ps even many non muslims hv defended khabib saying talking about his religion, dad,heritiage is a red line

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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 08:22

Brother please avoid this terminology and these references because the west is still powerful enough to make these look like big time offenses. I and I am sure others do understand the feelings.

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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 10:01

OK so then when lone wolves in the west or Muslims in Pakistan for e.g. think similarly and take matters in their own hands when they think their honor has been insulted ( similar to insulting khabib's dad) or Islam has been insulted, then why do we condemn such Muslims. They don't stop at beating, the end result is death.

So why do our imams then come out with all the condemnations and go out of their way to show Islam is a peaceful religion and one should not take matters into one's own hands? Are we not being taught the full picture ?

Supporters of "Extremist" groups use your evidence and take it to the next level.

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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 10:57

concerned wrote:

Assalamu alaikum
Why do you condemn them?

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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 13:03

Concerned wrote:

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[5:45] And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution.But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

Everything is clearly explained in this verse.

P.S: Don't feed the Troll! This guy will now construct a hypothetical story and link to issues and begin discussions of irrelevancy. A few posts later, people will forget how he started and get bogged down in his rhetoric, lies and exaggerations.

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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 17:15

Can we write his name like Habib Noor Muhammad

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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 17:43

This is what I thought was correct, and what I am accustomed hearing. I take it some of you don't agree?

Answered by Ustadh Anik Abdullah Misra

Question: Salamu alaikum,

It is narrated that sometimes Umar used to beat other Sahaba (e.g. Abu Hurairah), because of their wrongdoings. And there are also other similar incidents where other Sahaba used to do this. What is the understanding of these incidents? Is it allowed for the Muslim to beat his fellow brother under the pretext of giving him a nasiha? Is it allowed to beat him if he is attacking your honor, for example if he is insulting you or your family?

The following story is narrated in Hayatu Sahaba Vol.2 p.463 : “Hadhrat Abdullah bin Abbas narrates that when someone spoke about of Hadhrat Abbas and insulted him, Hadhrat Abbas slapped the man. Some people gathered around and swore, “By Allah! We shall slap Abbas just as he slapped this man.” When this news reached Rasulallah (s.), he stood to address the people. “Which person is the most honored by Allah?” Rasulallah asked. “You, O Rasulallah!” the people replied. Rasulallah continued, “Abbas is from me and I am from him. Never insult the dead, thereby hurting the living.”

Actually there are quite a few incidents about beating other Muslims because of their wrong actions. How do I have to understand these narrations? Is beating allowed under certain circumstances?
If the answer is yes, to which extent is it allowed?

Answer: In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate,

Wa alaikum as salam,

As a general rule, it is sinful and strictly prohibited for a Muslim to harm or hurt another human being, Muslim or not, on the pretext of giving “religious admonishment” or defending one’s honor and similar excuses.

The Prophet of Mercy, our master Muhammad [Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him] said in a rigorously authenticated hadith, “The [true] Muslim is one whom the generality of Muslims [including non-Muslim citizens as well] are safe from his tongue and his hand.” [Bukhari and Muslim]

Hence, one cannot be a complete Muslim, true to their religion [though they would still be sinful believers], until others are safe from their harm, whether by the tongue, through insults, lies, backbiting and the such, or by the hand, such as by pushing or striking and the like. The tongue and hand are not the only things meant, but they are mentioned since the harm that people do to others is most often by those two parts of the body, representing all types of word and deed. [Nawawi, Sharh Sahih Muslim]

In fact, in another version, this concept is half the definition of Islam itself: “A man asked, ‘O Messenger of Allah, what is Islam?’ [The Messenger, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him] replied, ‘That you submit your heart to Allah, and that the Muslims are safe from your tongue and hand.’” [Ahmad] It is significant to note that in the Arabic wording, the words for “submission” and “safety” being used here come from the same tri-lateral root word [S-L-M], from which the word “Islam” itself is derived.

Harming Someone in Retaliation

Harming someone in retaliation by any means – let alone using force to hurt them – is also strictly prohibited [unless in self-defense or the like], as attested to by the authentic hadith in which the Prophet [Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him] said, “There is no harming [another], nor reciprocating harm…” [Ahmad]

Defending honor is no reason to strike someone; in fact, Imam al-Suyuti mentions that the “complete” Muslim being referred to from whom others are safe from their harmful words and deeds is complete in the sense of “the perfection of manliness”. It is misplaced manhood [or dignity, etc] to feel that one needs to lose control and strike someone when insulted. [al-Suyuti, al-Dibaj ‘ala Sahih Muslim]

There are many hadiths which attest the inviolability of the person, honor and property of a Muslim and the Divine punishments for harming someone unjustly.

Forbidding the Wrong Through Physical Means

The use of force may be necessary in the case of self-defense or stopping harm done to someone else by way of protecting the weak, but even here, this is always as a last resort, to the minimal extent needed, and not due to an angry reaction.

In matters of public safety and upholding moral and civil law, the use of force is the sole prerogative of the authority of one’s country, and those delegated to the task of upholding the law, such as the police or a security guard, according to the laws and customs of that land in a given time and place.

It is not the right of laymen to act as vigilantes and use force to uphold moral laws and forbid the wrong in the extra-judicial sense, except in certain cases where the sacred law allows them to do so [such as defending against a thief, etc].

The Use of Physical Discipline by the Caliph Omar ibn al-Khattab

We do read that the illustrious Companion and second Caliph of Islam, Omar ibn al Khattab [Allah be pleased with him], used to whack some of the people with a thin stick or whip for doing certain prohibited acts [I say “whack” because the term “to beat” in Arabic can mean anything from a light spank to a sword-strike, and it is clear that it was more as a scolding and that serious harm was not delivered in these cases, as he himself decreed legal punishments to those who did harm others physically].

This was done based on the understanding that he had the legal authority as the caliph to do so to his subjects, and that he had the requisite knowledge of sacred-law to be able to understand when and to what extent this was permissible and when not. For example, he ordered retribution against the son of an aristocratic Companion who was the then-governor of Egypt for unjustly striking a man of lower social standing.

His personality was very strong and strict in matters of correcting wrongs, and thus he leaned towards using physical discipline as a chastisement, however, it is important to note that other caliphs were not known to use physical discipline except in extreme circumstances. Hence, this example is not something that we can use in our daily lives, as it is tied to his particular style of rulership, as well as the customs of physical discipline commonly accepted in that culture and time, which is different than today.

We Cannot Follow Non-Prophetic Incidents in Using Physical Force

In the occasional historical reports where we hear about one of the Companions slapping another or the like, we must keep in mind that in those brief narrations, we don’t always see the full picture and context of what really happened. Nor were they mentioned to extract a ruling of sacred law intended to be followed. We also must remember that while being the best generation of humanity, the Companions and their Followers still lived in a normal functioning society in which everyday disputes took place between people and were settled in courts, even while they knew far more about justice and the dignity of a human being than we do today.

In the incident you quoted regarding al-Abbas [Allah be pleased with him], you must keep in mind that the man who insulted his father Abdul Muttalib [with the horrible statement of wishing he was in Hellfire] was also in fact saying that about the very grandfather of the Messenger of Allah [Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him], the man who named him “Muhammad” and raised him after his parents passed away. When the slap was issued in response by al-Abbas, the Prophet quickly stopped an impending escalation and issued his own response to teach us: “Do not curse our dead, thereby harming the living.”

Thus, the hadith does not condone hitting someone at all, rather it shows us how to stop a fight, and exemplifies the higher road of behavior when responding to insults. It also warns people about harming others with the tongue, which is what leads to harm with the hand in many cases.

We cannot take narrations and incidents about the early Muslims and suddenly use our limited reasoning to apply them as legal maxims in our lives, as this can lead to harm and violating the very spirit of Islam.

Rather, as Muslims, we are called on to follow the perfect example of the Prophet Muhammad, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him, regarding whom his wife Aisha said, “The Messenger of Allah [Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him] never hit anything with his hand – not a woman, nor a servant [ie. to clarify that not just another man is meant, rather no living creature, not even an animal] – except in his fighting in Allah’s way [ie. just war that was fought for protection]. And he never, ever took revenge on a person who had done something personally wrong to him, unless something of what Allah made inviolable was violated [ie. like the abuse of slave], in which case he reacted solely for the sake of Allah, Might and Majestic.” [Muslim]

May Allah Most High guide us to be paragons of righteous and chivalrous behavior, according to the pristine example of our beloved Prophet Muhammad, Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him.

Wassalam,

Abdullah

Checked & Approved by Faraz Rabbani

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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 18:27

www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&O...

Please give me some advice on how to deal with people who write offensive posts in forums about me and the best way to avenge myself without transgressing the limits of Allah.

Answer
Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.

Allah Says (interpretation of meaning):

The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof, but whoever forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allâh. Verily, He likes not the Zâlimûn (oppressors, polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

[42:4].
Al-Qurtubi said: ‘The scholars said: ‘Allah divided the Mu’mins into two categories, one category forgives those who wrong them and Allah started by mentioning this category by Saying:

…and when they are angry, they forgive….

[42:37], and a second category are those who take revenge on whoever wronged them, and Allah described the extent of the revenge Saying:

The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof,….

[42:40], so they take revenge exactly in the same way they are wronged and do not go beyond that.
The scholars differed about the manner how a person would take revenge against someone who swore at him or insulted him whether he should insult and swear at him as someone does with him or the verse is about physical revenge only.
Imam Shafi’e and Abu Hanifa and others are of the view that the revenge is taken only in the body and not by insulting and swearing.
Other scholars are of the view that the punishment here is in a general context, as Shawkani stated ‘What we conclude from this is that the punishment mentioned is in its general context’.
Al-Sadi said, ‘If somebody swears at you, swear at him in the same way without exceeding the limits’.
Ibn Abi Najih stated in relation to the above:
If someone was told, “may Allah disgrace you”, he can respond, “may Allah disgrace you”. [Al-Tabari]
However, even if we say that it is permissible to insult someone who insults us, or swear at somebody who swears at us; there is a condition that one should not tell a lie about them or falsely accuse them of something.
The person who is wronged can pursue the matter with the person who wronged him and complain to somebody who can advise him by relating what the person exactly said in his regard, Allah Says (interpretation of meaning):

Allâh does not like that the evil should be uttered in public except by him who has been wronged.

[4:148].
However, it is better to forgive the person who wronged you, Allah Says (interpretation of meaning):

whoever forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allâh.

[42:40].
Allah knows best.

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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 19:51

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Please give me some advice on how to deal with people who write offensive posts in forums about me and the best way to avenge myself without transgressing the limits of Allah.

The other option is to report the post!

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 11th October 2018 20:42

In accordance with the theme of this thread, I exercise my right to call Muadh Khan a troll.

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