Quran 65:4 and accusations of the kuffar.

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#61 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 10:46

https://www.muftisays.com/forums/40-speech--english/14699-dealing-with-doubts.html?p=157937#157937

quote from Hakeemul ummat RA

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#62 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 10:50

So just blindly follow then?
Sorry not comfy with that
I mean why would an adult man want to marry someone 9-13? I can't see any good reason why he would wish to do so

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Yakob

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#63 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 11:03

Yakob wrote:

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OK he shall have a live in relationship with her. No one complaints.
Or he shall keep that girl as maid servant, no objections.

If someone intents he shall go to any extreme.

Fatwa is...... marriage with a young girl is permitted but not recommended.
This is similar to..... polygamy is permitted but not recommended.

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#64 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 11:10

akbar703 wrote:

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What evidence is that polygamy is not recommended? A student of knowledge told me this:

He is truthful! And I have seen one of my sheikhs reporting his sheikh being asked by a man in the audience, in a paper, whether polygamy is better or not, and the sheikh said: "Allaah the most exalted has given you something so ask Him for aid, be sure to keep what you have, keeping a house is a big responsibility.." while he was waving 🤚 with four fingers like this to tell the crowd without the women attending in the other room knowing, that he is recommending polygamy to him
So yes, polygamy is preferred and sometimes even needed, so long as the man is financially capable, and it's always better to have more than one wife most of the time

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#65 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 12:49

Yakob wrote:

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Maybe because it's part of fitrah?

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#66 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 14:42

Yakob wrote:

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And what age of consent is appropriate.? The one in Japan? 13 The one in France?15 The one in Germany? 14.

And if so why.?

It does not seem to be registering in your head. That a the role of a Mufti is to give a legal ruling if something is legally permissible under the sharia.

If it was permissible 1400 years ago then it is still permissible today.

So in a nutshell if you asked a mufti whether you can marry a 13 year old. Then he would tell you it’s permissible. That does not mean every Muslim in every culture around the world is getting married at 13.

And just because people are less inclined to get married at 13 and it is less common. It also does not mean that the person choosing to do so is doing anything wrong under Islamic Law.

The Sharia does not change just because the western countries arbitrarily consider something appropriate or inappropriate. At any given time. The Sharia remains consistent throughout the ages. And is derived from Quran and Sunnah.

It does not change because western countries review and revise their laws. Every few years.

Just In the last 50 years following changes took place. First Homosexuality was illegal and a crime and a mental illness.

Then they decided it was illegal but no longer to be treated as a mental illness.

Then they decided that it was legal for people of a certain age. But gay marriage was illegal.

And it was still illegal to promote it or teach it In Schools.

Then they decided gay marriage was legal.

Then they also decided that it was legal to teach and promote it in Schools.
And in the last 10 years they decided that is legal for 3 years old to decide to change sex.

So the legal age of consent for marriage might be 12 to 16 in these countries.

But legal age to change genders is fine at 3. To go transitional therapy and then to go through medical hormonal therapy and genital reconstruction. By the time your 13.

And you want us to follow these nincompoops.

What’s more in many of these countries the social Scientists are discussing lowering the age of consent with puberty. And some girls can go through puberty as young as 8 or 9. So if this is what they do in 20 years time. Would you still consider it gross???

Now I have given you a very comprehensive answer, so suggest you carefully read and digest what I have written before responding.

In Conclusion we Muslims submit to ALLAH alone. We do not take the westerners as our gods or as our moral arbiters and role models.

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Abdur Rahman ibn Awf

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#67 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 18:15

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:

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1. So do you say scholars in your country discourage or act neither towards it today

2. It should be the age of adulthood

3. Those are too low and being generous its to allow young people consent with each other. Not for older people to do so

There is something very wrong with a man who is 45 or even 26 who wants to sleep with someone 13. It is immoral as they are too young to consent to someone older who can easily manipulate them

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#68 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 18:36

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1) I am saying they do not need to say anything. Because people dont get married at a young age in my country. The issue never comes up.

2) What is the age of Adulthood in your opinion.?. And under what criteria?

3)

(A) What is your criterion for making something moral or Immoral?

Islamically we get married. We dont hook up with people just to sleep with them. That would be sinful.

(B) would it be moral or Immoral for a millionaire business man, popstar, actor, etc. To hook up with someone 20 years or 30 years his junior in age?

4) Take a look at this video is this immoral. twitter.com/EndWokeness/status/1632863836603662337?s=20

5) is it immoral to sexually objectify young girls and get to them to dress in provacative clothes and poses to use them to sell products in adverts???

6) you seem to have no clue as to what the age of consent is or what it means. Age of consent allows a young person of a consensual age to have consensual relationship with someone older or of any age.
So if a 60 year old had sex with a 14 year old and she consented in portugal it would be perfectly legal. If however he had sex with a 13 year old he would be commiting a crime. Because she would be below the age of consent.

Age of consent is not about people of the same age.

Age of consent means the individual is old enough to choose for themselves who to have sex with regardless of age.

So educate yourself on a subject before arguing about it.

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#69 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 19:41

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:

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First I am also against the trans nonsense too
second but for child marriage, I am troubled cuz its still allowed/permissible and people don't do cuz of the laws of the lad. I worry if say Islam was the majority rule, it'd be allowed

Legality is not morality. I mean what reason would a 50 year old want to be sleep with someone 13 for marriage even. Its wrong and gross

for those examples those are adults at least and sketchy at worst. Doing it with a child who is not developed enough is immoral

3. and this too:

If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that once a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger

I am troubled by the without her consent part.

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#70 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 19:55

Yakob wrote:

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You have not explained your criteria for morality.? If a 50 year old married married a 16 year old. Would that be
moral.? How about 18?

If so why?

As for people no longer getting married at a young age. Because it maybe illegal.

Your subjective morality seems to be based on how the west perceives things.

That is neither here nor there.
For muslims our morality is based on Quran and Sunnah.

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#71 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 20:11

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:

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No longer married young due to the laws of the land outlaw it. If its allowed in Islamic law then it would occur. And there are fatwas which I posted allow this

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#72 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 20:29

Yakob wrote:

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Bismilah.

Thats not quite true. Back in the 1980's Many of the students in my School got married abroad in their ancestral countries India, Pakistan, Bangladesh. etc.
Despite the law in the U.K. being 16.
So if people wanted to get married they could still do so.

Besides for a Nikkah an Islamic marriage to take place all it would need is someone to preside over the ceremony and a couple of witnesses. It would not need to be legally registered but it would still be religiously valid.

So the question to you is what is immoral? And who is sinful?

The 13 year old who is sexually active and has sex outside marriage going from one boyfriend or girlfriend to another. Which is common here in the west.

Or the 13 year old Muslim who wants to satisfy their desire by getting married and being in a responsible relationship.?

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Abdur Rahman ibn Awf

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#73 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 20:37

Yakob wrote:

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I think this topic has been covered from every angle.
So unless you have something new to add, I dont see any point in going around in circles.

Secondly. If your mind was already made up then why bother discussing this issue in the first place.

If you are sincere in actively learning further on this topic. I have given you
the details of Sapience Institute.
You can also contact local scholars and discuss your issues with them.

Finally Ramadan is 10 days away, I like the other members on here need to prepare for that. Instead of going on a wild goose chase of a debate.

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#74 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 20:39

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:

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How old were they when they got married as many people would say getting married today before 16 is too young

and here:

In the period 2005 to 2013, according to UNICEF, 29 percent of girls in Bangladesh married before the age of 15

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#75 [Permalink] Posted on 12th March 2023 20:41

Abdur Rahman ibn Awf wrote:

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Are you saying Islam today discourages marrying as young as 9?

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Yakob

Quran 65:4 and accusations of the kuffar.

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