Quran 65:4 and accusations of the kuffar.

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#31 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2018 19:38

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History proves that those who criticize our deen do so out of two things.

1. They are ignorant.
2. They are themselves morally corrupt and can't stand their nafs getting restricted to divine laws.

Therefore, if they are morally corrupt then it doesn't mean that we don't have the duty to defend our deen from false allegations and play our part in protecting our iman and helping others also in doing so. And if they are genuinely ignorant then also it's our duty to educate them. We are the ones who were responsible to show them the meaning of civilization. Alas! We have ourselves lost the way.

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#32 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2018 19:51

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Although we admitt, that the accusers are moral relativist, that doesn't mean we shouldn't pay heed to the accusation hurled at us. It is our responsibility as muslims.
We kill their accusations from two angles.
1) We prove the accusation false.
2) We show them that they are not being true to their core beliefs (Moral relativism).This essentially means they can't point at anything that they think is "right" or "wrong", provided they hold onto relativism. E.g You can't claim that you are a moral subjectivist yet point fingers at others with a hint of objective flavor. It is pure hypocrisy at best.

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#33 [Permalink] Posted on 8th May 2020 19:15

Concerned wrote:

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Are you saying that once a female can handle intercourse, the marriage can be consummated even if she hasn't seen menses or reached 15?

I have recently come across a fatwa:

Many people are of the misconception that in order for Nikāĥ and/or consummation to take place, then the female must be bālighah. This Fatwā demonstrates that there is no such condition or requirement in the Sharīáh.

Állāmah Khayr al-Dīn ibn Aĥmad ibn Nūr al-Dīn al-Ĥanafī al-Fārūqī al-Ramlī was asked, as recorded in his Fatāwā al-Khayriyyah:

“If a husband wishes to consummate the marriage with his minor wife, claiming that she can endure intercourse, and her father claims that she cannot endure it, what is the Sharíī ruling regarding that?”

He answered:

“If she is plump and rounded, and able to endure (intercourse with) men, and the stipulated immediate Mahr has been received promptly, the father is compelled to give her to her husband, according to the correct opinion. The Qāđī assesses; if she is of those who exit the house, then he calls her out and looks to her. If she is fit for men he orders her father to hand her over to her husband, and if she is not then he does not do so. If she is of those who do not exit the house, he orders that to be done by those whom are trusted in this from among the women. Therefore, if they say she is able to endure men, and is capable of intercourse, he orders her father to hand her over to her husband, and if they say she is incapable, he is not ordered to do that. And Allāh knows best.”

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#34 [Permalink] Posted on 8th May 2020 23:57

saa10245 wrote:

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discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-mar...

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#35 [Permalink] Posted on 9th May 2020 04:44

saa10245 wrote:

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Yes this is what i have understood as well.

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#36 [Permalink] Posted on 7th March 2023 13:52

abu mohammed wrote:

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Quote:

According to the Salafi school of thought,

Does Salafi school of thought exists? Where are their books on :
1. their usool e fiqh (universally accepted)
2. their universally accepted book of compilation of all the masail, like Ahnaf's quduri, hadayah, fatawa aalamgiri etc

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#37 [Permalink] Posted on 7th March 2023 14:33

akbar703 wrote:

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5th School of thought - Salafism

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#38 [Permalink] Posted on 7th March 2023 14:50

abu mohammed wrote:

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Where are their books of masail (rulings)?

Their books don't exist. So it is not a fifth school of thought.

During my discussion with salafees, I told them:
"you claim, fiqh hanafi is wrong, then please offer me a substitute for fiqh hanafi. Is there any substitute for Hidayah? ............ start with first mas'alah, if it is right then quote a saheeh hadeeth, if it is wrong, write the correct masalah with a saheeh hadeeth"

There reply was "Hamein uljhana aata hai, suljhana naheen"

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#39 [Permalink] Posted on 7th March 2023 14:59

akbar703 wrote:

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Only because you are asking for the sake of asking.
salafibookstore.com/product-category/books-literature/top...
salafibookstore.com/product/fiqh-according-to-the-quran-s...
www.sifatusafwa.com/en/fiqh-rajih-salafi-no-madhhab/
darussalam.com/salafi-bookstore/

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#40 [Permalink] Posted on 7th March 2023 15:20

abu mohammed wrote:

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1. These books are not universally accepted by salafees
2. There are books like fatawa ulema e ahle hadees, fatawa ahle hadees, fatawa sanaiyah, fatawah ibn timiah, fatawa bin baaz, fatawa shaykh uthaimeen, fatawa albani..... but when we quote fatwah from these books, sub-continent salafee says "we follow Rasulullah SAS, we don't follow fulaan shaykh"

So where is substitute of hidayah?

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#41 [Permalink] Posted on 7th March 2023 17:18

Yes, agreed....
Salafees follow a fifth school of thought, they have books on compilation of fiqhi masail.

Jazakallahu khair

Facepalm(:

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#42 [Permalink] Posted on 8th March 2023 20:51

saa10245 wrote:

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jazakallah VERY BEAUTIFUL informatttion

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#43 [Permalink] Posted on 8th March 2023 23:34

I mean it seems prepubescent intercourse is allowed is it not? I read the following here
From AskImam by mufti ebrahim Desai:

The permissibility of consummating a marriage with a girl is based on her physical strength and not on her age. If consummating the marriage will be injurious to her health then it will not be permissible to do so, although she may have reached the age of puberty. However, if consummating the marriage will not be injurious to her health then it will be permissible to do so, although she may have not reached the age of puberty. (Hashiyya Ibn Aabideen, vol 3, pg 204, HM Sa’eed)

وقد صرحوا عندنا بأن الزوجة إذا كانت صغيرة لا تطيق الوطئ لا تسلم إلى الزوج حتى تطيقه.

والصحيح أنه غير مقدر بالسن، بل يفوض إلى القاضي بالنظر إليها من سمن أو هزال.

وقدمنا عن التاتر خانية أن البالغة إذا كانت لا تحتمل لا يؤمر بدفعها إلى الزوج أيضا (حاشية ابن

it says "may not have reached puberty"

and here too:

وأكثر المشايخ على أنه ‌لا ‌عبرة ‌للسن في هذا الباب وإنما العبرة للطاقة إن كانت ضخمة سمينة تطيق الرجال ولا يخاف عليها المرض من ذلك؛ كان للزوج أن يدخل بها، وإن لم تبلغ تسع سنين، وإن كانت نحيفة مهزولة لا تطيق الجماع ويخاف عليها المرض لا يحل للزوج أن يدخل بها، وإن كبر سنها وهو الصحيح

الفتاوى الهندية، المطبعة الكبرى الأميرية، ج1 ص287

The majority of scholars say that age doesn’t matter. What matters is the ability. If she’s big and fat, can endure men and cannot fall ill from it (sex), then the husband can consummate his marriage even if she’s not nine years old yet. But if she’s thin and weak, and can’t endure intercourse, and can fall ill from it, then the husband isn’t allowed to consummate his marriage even if she’s old. This is the correct view.
Mughni Al-Fatawa Al-Hindiyya by a group of Indian scholars in the 17th century, Al-Matba’ah Al-Kubra Al-Amiriyya, vol.1 p.287

and here too:

قَالَ - رَحِمَهُ اللَّهُ - (وَصَغِيرَةٌ لَا تُوطَأُ) يَعْنِي لَا تَجِبُ لَهَا النَّفَقَةُ سَوَاءٌ كَانَتْ فِي مَنْزِلِهِ أَوْ لَمْ تَكُنْ، وَقَالَ الشَّافِعِيُّ لَهَا نَفَقَةٌ لِأَنَّهَا عِوَضٌ عَنْ الْمِلْكِ عِنْدَهُ كَمَا فِي الْمَمْلُوكَةِ مِلْكَ الْيَمِينِ وَقِيلَ إنَّ الصَّغِيرَةَ إذَا كَانَتْ مُشْتَهَاةً وَيُمْكِنُ جِمَاعُهَا فِيمَا دُونَ الْفَرْجِ يَجِبُ لَهَا النَّفَقَةُ، وَلَوْ كَانَتْ الصَّغِيرَةُ تَصْلُحُ لِلْجِمَاعِ تَجِبُ نَفَقَتُهَا عَلَى الزَّوْجِ بِالْإِجْمَاعِ لِحُصُولِ الْمَقْصُودِ، وَاخْتَلَفُوا فِي حَدِّهِ فَقِيلَ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ، وَالصَّحِيحُ أَنَّهُ ‌غَيْرُ ‌مُقَدَّرٍ ‌بِالسِّنِّ، وَإِنَّمَا الْعِبْرَةُ لِلِاحْتِمَالِ وَالْقُدْرَةِ عَلَى الْجِمَاعِ فَإِنَّ السَّمِينَةَ الضَّخْمَةَ تَحْتَمِلُ الْجِمَاعَ، وَإِنْ كَانَتْ صَغِيرَةَ السِّنِّ

تبيين الحقائق شرح كنز الدقائق للزيلعي، المطبعة الكبرى الأميرية، المكتبة الشاملة، ج3 ص52

“A minor who can’t endure sex” meaning the husband isn’t obliged to provide for her whether she’s living in his home or not. Al-Shafi’i said that “the husband is actually obliged to provide for her since that providing for her is the price for owning her. It’s like how a man is obliged to provide for his slave girl”….Some scholars say if the female minor is (old enough) to be sexually desirable and it’s possible to have sexual acts with her except for intercourse, then the husband is obliged to provide for her. But if the female minor can endure sex, scholars have unanimously agreed that the husband is obliged to provide for her. Scholars have disagreed on determining the age when a minor can endure sex, with some saying it’s nine. What’s is correct is that age doesn’t matter. What matters is the capability to endure sexual intercourse; a fat big female can endure intercourse even if she’s of a young age.
Al-Zayla’i, Tabyin Al-Haqa’iq, published by Al-Matba’a Al-Kubra, Al-Maktabah Al-Shamilah, vol.3 p.52

And this:

وقوله وأمكن وطؤها أي بلا حد سن بل يختلف باختلاف الأشخاص ولا يشترط الاحتلام فيها كالرجل؛ لأن من أطاقت الوطء يحصل بها للرجل ‌كمال ‌اللذة

شرح الخرشي على مختصر خليل، المطبعة الكبرى الأميرية، المكتبة الشاملة، ج3 ص258

“It’s possible to have sex with her” meaning there’s no specific age. Every person is different. And it’s not required for her to reach puberty because a man can receive full pleasure if the female can endure sex.
Al-Kharashi, Sharh Al-Kharashi, published by Al-Matba’ah Al-Kubra, Al-Maktabah Al-Shamilah, vol.3 p.258

I'm sorry but how is this not allowing pre-pubescent intercourse? This is really impacting my faith honestly and has made have second thoughts on Islam

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#44 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2023 04:50

And what are the explanations for these as people claim they allow pre-pubescent sex:

Narrated Buraida: The Prophet sent `Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated `Ali, and `Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, “Don’t you see this (i.e. `Ali)?” When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, “O Buraida! Do you hate `Ali?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.”
Bukhari 4350

.

Ibn Hajar, a man given the title “Shaykh Al-Islam”, in his famous commentary called Fath Al-Bari which is considered the most celebrated hadith commentary ever stated after this narration:

.

Abu Dharr al-Harawi said: ‘The Companion hated Ali only because he saw him taking from the spoils of war, so he thought that he had acted treacherously. When the Prophet ﷺ informed him that he took less than what was his right, he loved him.’ This is a good interpretation but for it being distant from the hadith brought out by Ahmad. Perhaps the reason for the hatred had a different basis, and it ceased when the Prophet ﷺ disallowed them to hate him.

Ali was blamed for having intercourse with the slave-girl without observing Istibra and also for the share (of the Khumus) that he took for himself. Now the first allegation is defensible as she was a virgin and not pubescent, and thus she did not need to observe Istibra — in accordance with the practice of many Companions before him. And she might have had her period after becoming his and then became purified after one day and one night. He had intercourse with her with no ill intent.

Zayd Bin Hubab <– Hammad Bin Salamah <– Iyas Bin Muawiyah: regarding a man who brought a pre-pubescent slave girl, do not those like her have sexual intercourse? He said: “there is nothing wrong with performing the sexual act upon her without observing istibra”
Musannaf Ibn Shaybah 16907

Waki <– Ali Bin Al-Mubarak <– Yahya Bin Abi Kathir <– Ikrimah: regarding the man who buys a pre-pubescent slave girl, even one younger than that. He said: “There is nothing wrong with touching her before observing Istibra”
Musannaf Ibn Shaybah 16906

and Ibn Qayyim's fatwa:

في الفصول روى عن أحمد في رجل خاف أن تنشق مثانته من الشبق أو تنشق انثياه لحبس الماء في زمن رمضان يستخرج الماء ولم يذكر بأي شيء يستخرجه قال: “وعندي أنه يستخرجه بما لا يفسد صوم غيره كاستمنائه بيده أو ببدن زوجته أو أمته غير الصائمة فإن كان له أمة طفلة أو صغيرة استمنى بيدها وكذلك الكافرة ويجوز وطؤها فيما دون الفرج فإن أراد الوطء في الفرج مع إمكان إخراج الماء بغيره فعندي أنه لا يجوز لأن الضرورة إذا رفعت حرام ما وراءها

Ahmed said about a man who feared that sperm would flow from his penis or that his testicles were unable to retain semen during Ramadan, he can ejaculate. But he didn’t say with what. In my opinion, he must release it with what would not spoil the fast of others. Like masturbating with his hand, or against the body of his wife or a slave who is not fasting. If he has a child or a small slave, let him masturbate with her hand. The Same for the unbelieving woman, he can penetrate her but not in her vagina. But if he wants to penetrate her vagina while he has other options to ejaculate, this would not be allowed in my opinion. If the need is fulfilled, it is forbidden to go beyond.
Bada’i Al Fuwa’id page 603

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#45 [Permalink] Posted on 9th March 2023 13:10

Yakob wrote:

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They are as written, you won't be missed.

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Quran 65:4 and accusations of the kuffar.

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