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Quran 65:4 and accusations of the kuffar.

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#16 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 23:50
Hmm! Interesting. So sexual maturity is different than puberty. This is new info for me. Doctors can confirm it.
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#17 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 00:44
I am a medical doctor by profession. When puberty is reached (i.e. when menstruation starts, please not that menses is one of the signs and NOT the only sign) it is at that time sexual development occurs. Sexual maturity coincides with the start of menses and it might be possible to imagine it occuring before the start of menses or in cases when menses are delayed. (delayed menstruation.)

As seen from the fatwa, there is another maturity which is known as maturity by age. See below.

Quote:
There are two ways of determining buloogh (maturity/puberty).
A) Physical maturity

B) Maturity by age

According to Shariah, if a boy experiences Ihtilaam (wet dream) or has the ability to impregnate he will be regarded to be Baligh (mature). This is referred to as physical maturity. However, if a boy does not become physically mature by the age of 15, Shariah will consider him to Baligh from the age of 15.

A girl will be regarded to be Baligh (reach the age of puberty) if she experiences Haidh (menses) or she becomes pregnant. If she does not experience menses by the age of 15, she will be regarded to be Baligh and all the Laws of Shariah will apply to her. (Shaami Vol.6 Page 580 H M Saeed)


I am glad to find another fatwa from Islamqa.org. Please have a look at it.
islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/5667


Quote:

According to various classical scholars, a prepubescent can be involved in a marriage contract, but the marriage is to be consummated when she reaches puberty. If the ‘iddah for a prepubescent divorcee is three months (sūrah 65:4), then how come sūrah 33:49 says that there is no ‘iddah if the marriage isnot consummated?

In short, is there an ‘iddah for a divorced prepubescent or not? If there is, what do you say about sūrah 33:49? If there is not, what do you say about sūrah 65:4?

Answer

As-salāmu ‘alaykum wa-rahmatullāh wa-barakātuh.

There are two āyahs under discussion. The first one is from sūrah al-Ahzāb.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا نَكَحْتُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُمُوهُنَّ مِنْ قَبْلِ أَنْ تَمَسُّوهُنَّ فَمَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ عِدَّةٍ تَعْتَدُّونَهَا فَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ وَسَرِّحُوهُنَّ سَرَاحًا جَمِيلًا (الأحزاب: 49)

O you who believe, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have marital relations, then you have no ‘iddah upon them… (Qur’an 33:49)



The second āyah under discussion is from sūrah al-Talāq.



وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُولَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَنْ يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَنْ يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَلْ لَهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا (الطلاق: 4)

And those of your women who have passed the age of monthly courses and those who have no courses, if you have doubts, their ‘iddah is three months… (Qur’an 65:4)



The āyah in al-Ahzāb is stating that if a couple has not engaged in marital relations, then the woman does not have to observe an ‘iddah in case of a divorce. This is regardless of the age of the wife. On the other hand, the āyah in al-Talāq is discussing the ‘iddah of a woman in the case where the couple had engaged in marital relations. A prepubescent girl, with whom a marriage is not normally consummated, falls within the ruling mentioned in al-Ahzab.



At times, even though a girl reaches the age of maturity, she still does not menstruate due to certain medical conditions. However, because of her having reached maturity, she and her husband may have consummated the marriage. In the case of a divorce and the absence of menstruation in this scenario, she will observe an ‘iddah equivalent to three lunar months. This is the ruling mentioned in al-Talaq. Hence, there is no contradiction in rulings, as they discuss different scenarios.



And Allah knows best.



Mufti Abrar Mirza
Chicago, IL (USA)

Under the Supervision of Mufti Ebrahim Desai (South Africa)



This is quite similar to something i stated

Quote:
If you look at the verse "and [also for] those who have not menstruated."
Two categories come to mind.
1) A child who has not started menstruating. The physical make up is a clear give away that she is a child or she is a minor by age.
2) A young girl who has not started menstruating. The physical make up is a clear give away that she is a woman around 15-17 years of age or in other words she has reached age of maturity. There is a phenomena called delayed periods in medical journals and it is completely normal.


So according to the fatwa, this verse pertains to the 2nd category.

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#18 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 09:17
sipraomer wrote:
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I know a case, uterus was removed at small age due to complication. Later the lady didn't had children after marriage.
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#19 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 15:27
What if a female is 14 and able to take part in intercourse, but hasn't seen menses as yet, can the marriage be consummated? What if in the past the female was 10, but is able to take part in inter course, but hasn't seen menses as yet, could the marriage be consummated?

This needs to he clarified.
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#20 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 18:33
Concerned wrote:
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The conditions and situations have already been presented. Not much need to delve into it further.

Things were what they were according to the times and culture too. So if in a country, their culture permits it or is normal, then there is no issue.

Anyways an FYI:
Lina Marcela Medina de Jurado (Spanish pronunciation; born 23 September 1933) is a Peruvian woman who became the youngest confirmed mother in medical history, giving birth at the age of five years, seven months, and 21 days!
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#21 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 19:27
Anonymous wrote:
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It depends on the age of maturity. For some it is 15 and to others it is 17.
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#22 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 19:38
@Concerned.
Sorry for the double post.
You asked.
Quote:
What if a female is 14 and able to take part in intercourse, but hasn't seen menses as yet, can the marriage be consummated? What if in the past the female was 10, but is able to take part in inter course, but hasn't seen menses as yet, could the marriage be consummated?

This needs to he clarified.


If you look at the fatwa by mufti ibrahim desai closlely he says "At times, even though a girl reaches the age of maturity, she still does not menstruate due to certain medical conditions. However, because of her having reached maturity, she and her husband may have consummated the marriage."

So one has to look at the age of maturity IF there are no menses. For some jurists it is 15 and others 17.

Secondly: It is a medical fact that Preganancy CANNOT happen if the woman is NOT menstruating. It is the effect of LH and FSH that causes the woman to menstruate preparing the uterine wall and causing the release of egg from the ovaries. So just in case intercourse takes place, it might lead to fertilization and therefore implantation in the uterus. But Exceptions are always there.

Primary Amenhorrea is a condition in which a woman doesnot menstruate and it is a cause of infertility.

So any female who becomes pregnant at an age lower than 10, HAS to be menstruating i.e. BALIGH.



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#23 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 19:39
Sorry but just to clarify, I get the impression that saa10245 is saying that marriage cannot be consummated with a female who is younger than 15, if she has not seen menses. Saa10245 is this what you are saying?

Edit: saa10245 is saying that a female younger than 15 must have experienced menses before the marriage can be consummated.

Abu Muhammad do you agree with that, or Are you saying that once a female can handle intercourse, the marriage can be consummated even if she hasn't seen menses or reached 15?
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#24 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 19:41
OK saa10245 you have answered my question before I asked it.
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#25 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 19:48
To be a bit more clear on this issue. Read closely fatwa of Mufti ibrahim desai in the previous posts.

To understand better Take a look from an article from yaqeen institute(See below)


___________________________________________________________________________________
If you are in doubt, the period of waiting will be three months for those women who have ceased menstruation and for those who have not [yet] menstruated; the waiting period of those who are pregnant will be until they deliver their burden: God makes things easy for those who are mindful of Him. (Al-Qur’an, 65:4)


Critics infer from the above that there being a waiting period for girls who “have not yet menstruated” indicates that it is permissible to engage in sexual relations with such girls.[43] However, this is an invalid conclusion because it neglects the different types of marriages and maturities in Islamic law. Case in point, the fact that a girl had not yet reached menarche was only evidence that she had yet to manifest the usual signs pertaining to legal majority—not that she was physically immature. A girl could technically still be considered mature based on other physical features, such as her biological age. With regard to this particular possibility, the leading Central Asian 12th century jurist, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al- Marghinani (d. 1197), provided this legal context behind the above verse:

And similarly those who have attained puberty (balaghat) by age, but have not menstruated, based on the end of the verse [“And those who have not menstruated” (65:4)], meaning those who have reached puberty by age, but not by menstruation; [those who have attained puberty] by reaching the age of 15 years according to the opinion of both (Abu Yusuf and Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Shaybani) or 17 years according to the opinion of Abu Hanifah and Malik, but have not yet menstruated; when they divorce they observe a waiting period based on months as well.[44]

It should be clear at this point that had Islam allowed for the sexual exploitation of children, many of these nuances would not exist. Case in point, the Qur’an would have never provided clarifications on the types of women who have waiting periods or even mention a ‘marriageable age’ to begin with if it allowed for any woman, regardless of maturity, to engage in sexual relations. And had jurists permitted such acts they too would never have bothered to distinguish between girls who were physically mature and those who were not. More importantly however, had the Prophet ﷺ himself been perceived as promoting the exploitation of children, then said scholars would have simply considered the age of nine to be the only condition necessary for a young girl to be considered mature. However, the age of nine has never been mentioned as one of the conditions by which to judge maturity in the Islamic tradition. Rather, jurists derived a completely different understanding from the relationship between the Prophet ﷺ and Aisha رضي الله عنه: that he had entered a contracted marriage with Aisha رضي الله عنه when she was six years of age, and then consummated the marriage after she had reached maturity three years later. Simple logical deduction led scholars to conclude that if Islam allowed for the abuse of children, then the Prophet ﷺ would not have needed to wait three full years before finalizing his marriage—but he did wait. He waited because he knew that to do otherwise would have caused harm to his wife, and one of the principle objectives (maqasid) of Islamic law is “the prohibition of subjecting oneself to harm (darar) or causing harm to others (dirar).”[45]

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#26 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 23:22
Quote:
Abu Muhammad do you agree with that, or Are you saying that once a female can handle intercourse, the marriage can be consummated even if she hasn't seen menses or reached 15?

There are things we don't know and there are things we do know. It is better to deal with every case individually according to circumstances and geographical locations with the aid of Ulama, which I'm not.

I don't have an opinion except that I accept whatever is correct even if I can't comprehend it.
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#27 [Permalink] Posted on 6th October 2018 23:49
For those who are curious to know.




Iddah for a pre pubescent after divorce

Salam wa alaykum. According to various classical scholars, a pre pubescent can be involved in a marriage contract, but the marriage is to be consummated when she reaches puberty. If the iddah for a divorced pre pubescent is 3 months (Surah 65:4), then how come Surah 33:49 says that there is no iddah if the marriage isn't consummated? In short, is there iddah for a divorced pre pubescent or not? If there is, what do scholars say about Surah 33:49? If there is not, then what do they say about Surah 65:4?

Answer
It is not necessary that Iddah is only obligatory if the husband has consummated the marriage. If the husband and wife had “Khalwah Sahihah” i.e. if they were together at a private place without any apprehension of interference by someone and there is nothing to prevent them from having sexual intercourse, this type of privacy (Khalwah Sahihah) carries the same legal consequences as actual intercourse. (Maariful Qur’an p.187 v.7 & Fatawa Hindiyyah p.526 v.1)

The verse in Surah Ahzaab refers to touching in terms of actual sexual intercourse or presumed intercourse in the context of Khalwah Sahihah. The verse in Surah Talaq will refer to divorce to a pre pubescent after Khalwah.

Only Allah Knows Best

Mohammed Tosir Miah

Darul Ifta Birmingham.


1)
This fatwa understands the verse 65:4 from another perspective i.e. the iddah being mandatory on a pre pubescent after Khalwah Sahihah Not actual intercourse.

2)The fatwa given under supervision of mufti Ibrahim saheb understands the verse 65:4 from a different perspective i.e. the girl has reached the age of maturity and has no menses, and consummation has taken place between the couple and hence iddah being mandatory.

3 The article from the yaqeen institute concludes under the guidance of shaykh omar suleiman and Jonathan brown that

Critics infer from the above that there being a waiting period for girls who “have not yet menstruated” indicates that it is permissible to engage in sexual relations with such girls.[43] However, this is an invalid conclusion because it neglects the different types of marriages and maturities in Islamic law. Case in point, the fact that a girl had not yet reached menarche was only evidence that she had yet to manifest the usual signs pertaining to legal majority—not that she was physically immature. A girl could technically still be considered mature based on other physical features, such as her biological age.


4)
Another fatwa from Askimam regarding Prophet's(P.B.U.H) Marriage to Hazrat Ayesha (R.A)

Question

I want to know why prophet Muhammad (peace n blessing of allah be upon him) married to Aisha may peace be upon her when she was just 9 years old
Some Non Muslim asked me this question ... i was helpless cuz i wasnt i aware about the answer .... he also said aisha may peace be upon her never remarried after
the death of Prophet Muhammad (peace n blessing of allah be upon him) because widow of prophet was not allowed to remarry.... i read in many hadiths how they got married but i dont know why Prophet Muhammad (peace n blessing of allah be upon him) married to aisha may peace be upon her at such early age ... Thankyou for listening to my concern ... Khoda Hafiz

Answer

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatoh

Please find attached article on the young marriage of Hazrat Ayesha r.a

And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Wassalam

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa



The Young Marriage of Ayesha R.A

Sadly we currently see the efforts of the Christian missionary activity focused primarily on derailing Islam now more than any other period in history. Thus, we witness numerous travesties and parodies coming from them in their attempts to twist, manipulate and totally abuse historical and etymological facts. These polemics range from a variety of the utterly hilarious to the outright abusive and cruel. One such dishonest Christian missionary polemic has been the allegation of the young marriage of Aishah (radiAllahu Anha) to the Prophet Muhammad(sallallahu Alayhi wasallam). The missionaries try to accuse the Prophet of being a child molester, albeit in politically correct terms, due to the fact that Aishah (radiAllahu Anha) was betrothed (zawaj) at the age of 6 years old and the marriage was consummated (nikâh) a few years after the marriage at 9 years old when she was in full puberty. The lapse of time between the zawaj and nikâh of Aishah (radiAllahu Anha) clearly shows that her parents were waiting for her to reach puberty before her marriage was consummated. If it were not for the fact that some gullible Christians have been parroting the claims without understanding the reasons behind it, we would have not even bothered with a refutation. Such a claim is based only on conjecture and moral relativism, and not on fact. This article seeks to refute the allegation, insha'allah.

Puberty And Young Marriage In Semitic Culture

The hilarity of the whole saga of Christian missionaries accusing the Prophet(sallallahu Alayhi wasallam) of committing "child molestation" is that this contradicts the basic fact that a girl becomes a woman when she begins her menstruation cycle. The significance of menstruation that anyone with the slightest familiarity with physiology will tell you is that it is a sign that the girl is being prepared to become a mother.

Women reach puberty at different ages ranging from 8-12 years old depending on genetics, race and environment. We read that

There is little difference in the size of boys and girls until the age of ten, the growth spurt at puberty starts earlier in girls but lasts longer in boys.[1]

The article continues thereafter

My observations.
Had islam allowed consummation of marriages to prepubertal (before reaching physical maturity) or minor (before reaching age of maturity) girls
1) Our Prophet Mohammad (P.B.U.H) wouldn't have waited.
2)Our scholars and jurists wouldnt have defended the position of such consummation based on the standards of puberty or age of maturity. In other words, they could have simply stated Islam allows consummation of marriage to a woman regardless of age or puberty. But alhamdollilah that is not the case.
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#28 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2018 00:50
Yes it is clear from the links you posted that the marriage cannot be consummated until

1) a female sees her menses or reaches the age of 15.

2) she is also able to safely take part intercourse

The other links and responses weren't totally clear on if the first condition is necessary, hence my questions.
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#29 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2018 10:07
abu mohammed wrote:
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Do we have to take seriously the objections from a society which believes in the following and practices it.
Quote:
Teacher in US school writes; I’m glad to see two classes devoted to safer choices and using protection. But wedged between all of the classes on abstinence vs. safer sex is the thing that makes me want to scream. It’s the class titled, “Impact of Pregnancy,” which is followed by “Adoption and Safe Delivery.” Period.

Apparently, “abortion” is like talking about Jesus or the Buddha — forbidden, as though it’s a form of proselytizing, instead of a fundamental health care option. American teachers are required to teach about abortion like they’re asked to teach about the fact that the United States was founded on genocide and slavery — you know, as though all of it didn’t even exist.

No person should be coerced or forced into carrying a pregnancy, especially a teen. No person should feel pressured to become a parent before they are ready, especially a teen. And no child should consider dangerous alternatives to safe abortion because abortion is unnecessarily stigmatized and increasingly hard to access.
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#30 [Permalink] Posted on 7th October 2018 10:51
Bankrupt society which legalizes; Live in relationship; ; same sex marriages; decriminalizes adultery etc. frames a law which jails a person who divorces in Islamic way.

And this society is silent on 365 marriages a year, of course without divorce.
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