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Quran 65:4 and accusations of the kuffar.

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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 10:17
Aoa Brothers and sisters
I hope every one is doing fine in sha Allah.
I recently came across lots of materials prepared by the Kufar to malign Islam. One of these tactics was that Islam promotes consummation of marriage with a child/minor.

Their line of argument is basically this:

That in Islam, If divorce occurs before consummation of marriage and before the husband and wife were able to be together in privacy (khalwa), then, upon divorce, the woman does not have to observe the waiting period (idda).

Quote:
“O you who believe, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, then they have no obligation of any waiting period (idda) for you that you may count…” (Qur’an 33:49)


They then quote the following verse. (See below. They highlight the bold part of the verse)

Quote:
And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.(Quran 65:4)


They infer from the above that there being a waiting period for girls who “have not yet menstruated” indicates that it is permissible to engage in sexual relations with such girls.

I read the tafsir Mariful Quran regarding this verse and came across this

"Women who do not menstruate, because they have not yet attained puberty, or because they have attained menopausal age,rule about them is forthcoming" (Page 494 English translation, Volume 8, 65,1-7)

As far as i can recall, i'd read that consummation of marriage cannot take place until the girl hits maturity, which can either be in the form of 1)menses/puberty or 2) Age of fifteen.

A fatwa regarding maturity/Baligh from Islamqa states

Quote:

There are two ways of determining buloogh (maturity/puberty).
A) Physical maturity

B) Maturity by age

According to Shariah, if a boy experiences Ihtilaam (wet dream) or has the ability to impregnate he will be regarded to be Baligh (mature). This is referred to as physical maturity. However, if a boy does not become physically mature by the age of 15, Shariah will consider him to Baligh from the age of 15.

A girl will be regarded to be Baligh (reach the age of puberty) if she experiences Haidh (menses) or she becomes pregnant. If she does not experience menses by the age of 15, she will be regarded to be Baligh and all the Laws of Shariah will apply to her. (Shaami Vol.6 Page 580 H M Saeed)


Can any of the knowledgable brothers shed some light on this verse 65:4 especially the part "and [also for] those who have not menstruated." and refute the claims of the kuffar.

May Allah reward you immensely. (Ameen)






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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 10:24
According to the Hanafi school of thought it is better to get a full response and have it clarified with evidence.

According to the Salafi school of thought, marriage to a minor is permitted and the evidence used is the same verse and the age of of Aisha (raa)
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 10:28
abu mohammed wrote:
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I want to clarify something here. I am talking specifically about the consumation of marriage i.e. the first act of sexual intercourse between the couple.

If you don't mind me asking, does Salafi school of thought allows consumation with a minor?

Prophet (P.B.U.H) married to ayesha at the age of 6 but consummated the marriage at the age of 9.
He (P.B.U.H) waited for a period of 3 years.
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 10:34
saa10245 wrote:
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One of the views is noted here: (part of a lengthy response)
Quote:
With regard to consummation of the marriage with a minor, it does not become permissible by merely drawing up the marriage contract; rather the husband should not consummate the marriage with her until she is able to have intercourse, which is not necessarily at puberty. This is something that varies from one environment and time to another. With regard to that, sharee‘ah pays attention to physical makeup


Additional Salafi responses
islamqa.info/en/146882
islamqa.info/en/177280

islamqa.info/en/22442
Quote:
The fact that it is permissible to marry a young girl does not mean that it is permissible to have intercourse with her; rather that should not be done until she is able for it. For that reason the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed the consummation of his marriage to ‘Aa’ishah. Al-Nawawi said: With regard to the wedding-party of a young married girl at the time of consummating the marriage, if the husband and the guardian of the girl agree upon something that will not cause harm to the young girl, then that may be done. If they disagree, then Ahmad and Abu ‘Ubayd say that one a girl reaches the age of nine then the marriage may be consummated even without her consent, but that does not apply in the case of who is younger. Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Abu Haneefah said: the marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse, which varies from one girl to another, so no age limit can be set. This is the correct view. There is nothing in the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah to set an age limit, or to forbid that in the case of a girl who is able for it before the age of nine, or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine. Al-Dawoodi said: ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was reached physical maturity (at the time when her marriage was consummated).


islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/11399
Quote:
Respected Mufti Desai, My uncle was only a child when my grandfather performed his Nikah. He was probably 7 or 8 years old. My uncle’s actual married life started after he was around 25 years or so however, he had a very difficult time accepting this fact. At that time, I believe it was sort of a custom in Indian muslims to perform such Nikah in early childhood. This custom is still practiced among certain Muslims in India. Are such Nikahs considered valid? Jazakallah.

Answer
When a minor’s Nikah is performed by his or her father or grandfather
(father’s father), the contract will be binding upon the minor even after
the age of puberty. This does not exclude the right of divorce (Talaaq) or
Khulaa (request for divorce on monetary exchange) by male and female
respectively.

However, if the marriage was performed by anyone else, the minor possesses
the right to cancel the Nikah (faskh) upon maturity. (Hidaaya vol.1 pg.316,
Babul Awliya Wal Akfa)

and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.

Source
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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 10:54
Thanks for the reply. This is exactly what i had read on the salafi's website. They do have a criteria although somewhat ambiguous.
Do you know of a hanafi position on this ?

And how are we supposed to refute this accusations especially when they claim that Islam promotes having sex with a minor who hasn't reached puberty or isn't mature.
This accusation is NOT the similar to the one they used, as in the case of Hazrat Aisha (R.a). We have the narrations that Prophet (P.B.U.H) waited for 3 years before consumating the marriage which without a doubt means that she was mature/ or had reached puberty owing to the conditions of Arabia at the time and social circumstances.

If you look at the verse "and [also for] those who have not menstruated."
Two categories come to mind.
1) A child who has not started menstruating. The physical make up is a clear give away that she is a child or she is a minor by age.
2) A young girl who has not started menstruating. The physical make up is a clear give away that she is a woman around 15-17 years of age or in other words she has reached age of maturity. There is a phenomena called delayed periods in medical journals and it is completely normal.

Do you think this verse includes both categories or only the second?

Looking at Tafsir Mariful Quran
Quote:
"Women who do not menstruate, because they have not yet attained puberty, or because they have attained menopausal age,rule about them is forthcoming" (Page 494 English translation, Volume 8, 65,1-7)


The author talked about "Women" who do not menstruate and Not a child who does not menstruate.

What do you think?









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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 12:11
"saa10245 wrote:
What do you think?

I'm not in a position to comment - This should be left for the scholars to discuss and provide answers. As far as my responses are concerned, they are based on what other scholars have already said. And they are clear in what they are saying according to their schools and understandings.
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 12:30
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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 15:07
I think this question shouldn't be left here un-answered. The ulema on this forum should reply it here on this thread. Otherwise this thread should be shifted to the debate section because leaving it unanswered may create doubts in the hearts of those who don't have strong eman and knowledge. Also many people visit this forum Muslims as well as Non Muslims. If it is not attended properly then doubts can create in their hearts and propagandists will have another excuse of maligning Islam and especially Orthodox Islam.
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 15:14
This is answered by Mufti Mohammed saeed khan sahib DB from deoband

h t tps:// islamicbookslibrary dot wordpress dot com/2015/08/03/kumsin-bachon-ki-shadiyan-by-shaykh-mufti-muhammad-saeed-khan/
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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 16:36
Guest-53343 wrote:
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I read this booklet but there is no mention of this verse and it doesn't touch the issue of "and [also for] those who have not menstruated.".
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 19:23
There are many topics on this forum discussing the age etc and other topics denouncing such allegations/claims.

Here is another detailed piece of work shared by one of our brothers.

yaqeeninstitute.org/en/arnold-yasin-mol/aisha-ra-the-case...

This scholar is a student of a scholar from Wifaqul Ulama.
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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 20:28
abu mohammed wrote:
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Had i come across an article from scholars (apart from the one on Yaqeen institute), i wouldn't have asked this question here.

There are two accusations. Refutation of these accusations is extremely essential because it may cause muslims to entertain doubts about islam in general. It is a time of fitna.

The first issue was the age of Ayesha (R.A). This is not an issue that i am concerned about.
This issue was addressed succinctly by saying 1) Prophet (P.B.U.H) waited for 3 years before consummation of marriage. 2) The conditions of Arabia made women menstruate at an early age. 3) it was a cultural norm at the time and it is unjust/unfair to judge their standards by current standards.

The second issue pertains to Verse 65:4. I have yet to come across refutation from other prominent scholars regarding this verse (I have seen the article on the yaqeen institute).

The question is does the ayah and [also for] those who have not menstruated. includes

1) A child who has not started menstruation.
2) A women who is baligah by age and has delayed menstruation.
3) Or both.

This needs to be addressed by scholars of our age.

This is a time for fitna and this can't go unaddressed. A simple google search with the same verse yields all kinds of materials which would make a believer bang his head against the wall.


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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 21:32
Are you asking if it is permissible to consummate the marriage with a female who is able to take part in intercourse i.e. not be harmed by taking part in intercourse, but she has not reached puberty?
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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 22:22
Concerned wrote:
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This question is extremely important and both ulema and muslim medical doctors should give the answer. Maybe Dr.Tassawuf Sahab(Sorry forgot the original username) and london786 and any mufti can give a satisfactory answer. I don't know that why this question is being ignored. That's not good.
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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 5th October 2018 23:05
As far as i am aware, there is no requirement which states a female must have reached puberty for marriage to be consummated, but she must have reached sexual maturity. That seems to be mentioned in the links above.
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