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Iblis, Dajjal and Technology

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#76 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 12:16
With regards to taking a life and bringing back to life, this apparently happens anyway in Urs of Barelwi's where they perform such acts. Witnessed this horror as a kid :( (not the full extent, but parts of it)
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#77 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 12:28
saa10245 wrote:
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Cloning is not CREATION,it is more like MODIFICATION in creation :

I am not giving Tafsir of the ayat below,nor am giving Taweel,it just spontaneously came to my mind,so I will share it with you :

Sura Nisa ayat 119 : Shaytan says :

“And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah.” And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss.”

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#78 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 12:33
ALIF wrote:
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Brother did i say something different? I never said cloning is creation. Read my post again.
I would like to edit this post and add something.
A cloned animal IS a creation because it exists and it is created by Allahسبحانه وتعالى.
Anything that begins to exist NEEDS A creator.
There is a difference between the word "Creation" and "Creating"
Creation: all things that begin to exist fall in the realm of creation.
Creating: The act of bringing something from non-existence to existence.

Cloned animal is a Creation of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.
Cloning is NOT SIMILAR TO CREATING because 1) Creating is an Act of Allahسبحانه وتعالى 2) cloning involves using modification of already existing living things.

So Creation is a word that pertains to things that are "Created" or things that begin to exist.
Anything that begins to exist is created by Allahسبحانه وتعالى because He is the Creator of everything.
My original question was "does Cloned Animal has a soul since it is living, moving e.t.c?"
And i believe it has since it moves and is living (not dead) and this soul is given to it By Allahسبحانه وتعالى.
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#79 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 12:48

saa10245 wrote:
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Both possiblities (about Dajjal) are covered in the answer.

Cloning is not creation of life at all. Let me try to explain it to you, during the cloning process may embryos are fused with genetic information so this embryo was going to live (with the Permission of Allah) anyway but it has been modified.

Moreover during the cloning process many embryos are modified and some succeed while others fail so IF cloning was creating life then all embryos would end up living and succeeding but the fact that most die and some live shows that from a scientific perspective it depends on probability. For our perspective, it reaffirms that Allah gives LIFE and not the PROCESS as if the PROCESS gave life then 100% of the cloned embryos will succeed. So only the embroys which Allah destined to become "alive" do and others die.

Scientists can clone human embryos with your DNS information and create 1000 copies of you (when these babies grow up), would it mean that they have created 1000 you?  In order to create 1000 you, they would have to make may be a millions attempts to clone.

In this verse of the Qur'aan what did Namrood do?

Have you not considered the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord [merely] because Allah had given him kingship? When Abraham said, "My Lord is the one who gives life and causes death," he said, "I give life and cause death." Abraham said, "Indeed, Allah brings up the sun from the east, so bring it up from the west." So the disbeliever was overwhelmed [by astonishment], and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. [2:258]

  1. He pardoned two people he was going to kill
  2. Killed two people he was going to pardon

By doing this, he gave the appearence of giving life or taking life away. So cloning is not creation but it gives the appearence of such.

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#80 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 12:49
saa10245 wrote:
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salaam

unless i am mistaken, i have already addressed that incident. those hadith are all about that one incident. dajjal will only be given leave to carry out this fitnah just once. he will be allowed to kill one man and then revive him again. after that he will no longer be able to revive anyone. the other hadith you mentioned only says that he will use jinns to impersonate dead people.
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#81 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 12:51
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Both possiblities (about Dajjal) are covered in the answer.
Thank you for clearing that up.

I never said Cloning is creation of life.
This is what i said in previous post.

Quote:

A cloned animal IS a creation because it exists and it is created by Allahسبحانه وتعالى.
Anything that begins to exist NEEDS A creator.
There is a difference between the word "Creation" and "Creating"
Creation: all things that begin to exist fall in the realm of creation.
Creating: The act of bringing something from non-existence to existence.

Cloned animal is a Creation of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.
Cloning is NOT SIMILAR TO CREATING because 1) Creating is an Act of Allahسبحانه وتعالى 2) cloning involves using modification of already existing living things.

So Creation is a word that pertains to things that are "Created" or things that begin to exist.
Anything that begins to exist is created by Allahسبحانه وتعالى because He is the Creator of everything.
My original question was "does Cloned Animal has a soul since it is living, moving e.t.c?"
And i believe it has since it moves and is living (not dead) and this soul is given to it By Allahسبحانه وتعالى.


Correct me if i am wrong brother.
Thank you.
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#82 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 12:53
abu mohammed wrote:
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Isn't that way after Dajjal?

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#83 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 13:05
abu mohammed wrote:
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About the life and death caused by Dajjal,one possibility remains that he must be affecting the ‘imagination’ of people,sort of MASS HYPNOSIS...that is what magic is all about.

Please read this ayat from the story of Syedena Musa عليه و على نبينا صلوات والسلام when he was facing the magicians of Firon,they threw some ropes and it ‘looked like’ moving snakes :

قَالَ بَلْ أَلْقُوا ۖ فَإِذَا حِبَالُهُمْ وَعِصِيُّهُمْ يُخَيَّلُ إِلَيْهِ مِن سِحْرِهِمْ أَنَّهَا تَسْعَى
(Sura TAHA)
Moses replied: 'No, you throw first. ' And by their sorcery it seemed to him that their ropes and staffs were sliding. (66)

سَحَرُوا أَعْيُنَ النَّاسِ وَاسْتَرْهَبُوهُمْ وَجَاءُوا بِسِحْرٍ عَظِيمٍ

الشورى)

(They bewitched the eyes of the people, and struck terror into them, and they displayed a great magic) (7:116).
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#84 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 13:19
saa10245 wrote:
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My post was not particularly in response to your post,it was more about addressing the issue of cloning and the Fitna of Dajjal.It looked more helpful for the sake of continuity to address it or add it to your post

Yes,you are right about what you wrote.
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#85 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 13:39
ALIF wrote:
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JazakAllah brother. May Allah reward you for your sincere intentions.
There's one thing i feel i should post here because it's relevant. This is my personal opinion.
The miracles of Hazrat Isa (A.s) pertaining to raising the dead or giving life to clay birds happened by the Will and Khalq of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.
The Trials of Dajjal pertaining to the dead will also happen by the Will and Khalq of Allahسبحانه وتعالى.

The difference is between the attitudes. Hazrat Isa (A.s) points the existence of miracles to Allahسبحانه وتعالى and humbles himself. He declares the existence and worship of One God through these miracles. This is why these are called miracles.
Dajjal points each of his feats to himself and call himself God. He will take means to achieve these feats which are forbidden. This is why these are called istidraj.
Dajjal would come to deceive man kind. He feels that he is accomplishing those feats. He doesn't realize that he can't move a finger except by Allah's leave. The biggest deceiver is himself in the biggest delusion.

Off topic.
I feel that the word "creation" should always be used in terms of "Makhlooq" since it is a noun. It's my personal opinion.
So when describing any scientific innovation such as cloning we can say cloning is NOT similar to "creating" (Khalq/An act of bringing something from non existence to existence) which is a verb.

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#86 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 14:08
saa10245 wrote:
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You are right,there are ‘apparent’ similarities between many things Syedena Eisa عليه السلام did by the will of ALLAH swt and the ‘deception’ of Dajjal, that is one reason he is called ‘MASEEH AL DAJJAL’ only that he is مسيح الضلالة and Syedena Eisa عليه السلام is مسيح الهداية

Moreover the miracles of prophets are REALITIES by the orders of ALLAH swt,miracles cause a change in the normal nature of things by will of ALLAH swt. Fire should burn,but it did not burn Syedena Ibrahim عليه السلام,sea should be flowing and not split giving way,but it did so for Syedena Musa عليه السلام... and so on...

Dajjal will display various kinds of trickeries ,from technology to magic to taking help from jinns and other shayateen to using his own will powers,(that is why his feasts becomes so difficult to understand). THIS IS THE MAJOR DIFFERENCE between miracles and other apparently supernatural phenomena..One is a reality the other only looks like it...

The code word to the understanding of Dajjal is his name...DECEPTION
Keep applying it to his life and his person and you will keep understanding him :)


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#87 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 14:21
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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There's a story I posted from Fundamentals of Tawheed by Bilal Phillips in which he narrates a story about a Sahabi who kills a man for performing such magic on living people by cutting their heads off and then bringing them back to life.

I can't find the post or picture of the story at the moment. This Sahabi killed the pagan and said to the people see if he can back to life again. He was then arrested and put away.
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#88 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 14:40
abu mohammed wrote:
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Well that didn't take long to find :)

Fundamentals of Tawheed.JPG
Downloads: 109
    [115.85 kB]
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#89 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 16:35

saa10245 wrote:
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saa10245 wrote:
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Personally I don't think that it is creation or creating, its modification of an already existing/created object.

There is no creation or creation going on, in other words the embryo was already created and was going through its normal cycle...All they have done is modified or altered it so it was ALIVE (so to speak) and continued to be ALIVE.

Biologically, cloning is not creating or creation, its alteration.

Nothing new is being created at all.

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#90 [Permalink] Posted on 24th August 2018 16:52
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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Do you think that the cloned animal is not a makhlooq/creation of Allahسبحانه وتعالى?
You need to read this.
www.deoband.org/2010/03/contemporary-voices/clearest-rati...

Considering the definition:
Creation: anything that begins to exist is created and hence falls into the realm of creation.
Creating: the act of bringing something from non existence to existence.



From an islamic point of view the cloned animal is a creation/makhlooq of Allah سبحانه وتعالى Because it was something that began to exist.
No muslim would deny this fact that everything that begins to exist is Created by Allah سبحانه وتعالى. There's no personal opinion about this.

Similarly the one who says Cloning is similar to "Creating" is completely wrong for 2 reasons:
1) The act of creating belongs only to Allahسبحانه وتعالى
2) The modification of living things takes place in cloning hence it is not creating.

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