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#1 [Permalink] Posted on 21st August 2018 18:26
Following info taken from Hamza Yusuf video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5ZfmBqnLcQ


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons_(rocket_engineer)

Jack Parsons

John Whiteside "Jack" Parsons (born Marvel Whiteside Parsons;[nb 1] October 2, 1914 – June 17, 1952) was an American rocket engineer and rocket propulsion researcher, chemist, and Thelemite occultist. Associated with the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), Parsons was one of the principal founders of both the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) and the Aerojet Engineering Corporation. He invented the first rocket engine to use a castable, composite rocket propellant,[1] and pioneered the advancement of both liquid-fuel and solid-fuel rockets.

Religious beliefs

[Parsons] treated magic and rocketry as different sides of the same coin: both had been disparaged, both derided as impossible, but because of this both presented themselves as challenges to be conquered. Rocketry postulated that we should no longer see ourselves as creatures chained to the earth but as beings capable of exploring the universe. Similarly, magic suggested there were unseen metaphysical worlds that existed and could be explored with the right knowledge. Both rocketry and magic were rebellions against the very limits of human existence; in striving for one challenge he could not help but strive for the other.


Parsons adhered to the occult philosophy of Thelema, which had been founded in 1904 by the English occultist Aleister Crowley following a spiritual revelation that he had in Cairo, Egypt, when—according to Crowley's accounts—a spirit being known as Aiwass dictated to him a prophetic text known as The Book of the Law.[175] Prior to becoming aware of Thelema and Crowley, Parsons' interest in esotericism was developed through his reading of The Golden Bough (1890), a work in comparative mythology by Scottish social anthropologist James George Frazer.[176] Parsons had also attended lectures on Theosophy by philosopher Jiddu Krishnamurti with his first wife Helen, but disliked the belief system's sentiment of "the good and the true".[177] During rocket tests, Parsons often recited Crowley's poem "Hymn to Pan" as a good luck charm.[166] He took to addressing Crowley as his "Most Beloved Father" and signed off to him as "thy son, John".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema

Thelema

Thelema was developed in the early 1900s by Aleister Crowley, an English writer, mystic, and ceremonial magician.[1] He believed himself to be the prophet of a new age, the Æon of Horus, based upon a spiritual experience that he and his wife, Rose Edith, had in Egypt in 1904.[2] By his account, a possibly non-corporeal or "praeterhuman" being that called itself Aiwass contacted him and dictated a text known as The Book of the Law or Liber AL vel Legis, which outlined the principles of Thelema.[3] An adherent of Thelema is a Thelemite.
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#2 [Permalink] Posted on 21st August 2018 18:35
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bacon

Francis Bacon

Francis Bacon, 1st Viscount St Alban,[a] PC QC (/ˈbeɪkən/;[5] 22 January 1561 – 9 April 1626) was an English philosopher, statesman, scientist, jurist, orator, and author. He served both as Attorney General and as Lord Chancellor of England. After his death, his works remained influential in the development of the scientific method during the scientific revolution.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult_theories_about_Francis_Bacon

Occult theories about Francis Bacon

A number of writers, some of whom were connected with Theosophy, have claimed that Francis Bacon (22 January 1561 – 9 April 1626), the English philosopher, statesman, scientist, jurist and author, was a member of secret societies; a smaller number claim that he would have attained the Ascension and became the Ascended Master Saint Germain.
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#3 [Permalink] Posted on 21st August 2018 18:57
salaam

in my work as a tradesman, i did some work for a client over the course of a few days. very nice pleasant guy. very educated. he works in the field of nanotechnology. i saw a book on his bookshelf which piqued my interest and got his permission to flick through it. the book was The Singularity is Near: When Humans Transcend Biology Ray Kurzweil.

i didnt spend that much time reading the book, but the gist of it was that humans will be able to to make themselves immortal by uploading human consciousness into a man made body and that this will be made possible as soon as real artificial intelligence is achieved, because the artificial intelligence will be able to fast forward technology in a way that humans cant and never will. so they believe the only barrier left is to achieve artificial intelligence.

i briefly spoke to the client along these lines and according to him the scientific community believes that once they achieve artificial intelligence humans will become like gods and be able to create in the same way we believe god creates.

so it seems this is the way the scientific community is heading. they dont just want to play gods, they want to be gods. i am not saying that they are consciously trying to achieve this as an affront to god, just that this is what they want to achieve. but i feel that there will be some amongst them who are trying to directly go to war with allah.
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#4 [Permalink] Posted on 21st August 2018 19:50

xs11ax wrote:
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Cannot happen. Your cells don't grow but repair and as you grow older your ability to repair damaged cells is diminished. Even with the latest embroynic stem cell infusion you will NOT live forever.

We are making advancements in artificial organs and perhaps in the near future all organs can be replaced...You will still NOT live forever due to inherent cellular biology issues.

You can get exoskeletons which will give you the ability to achieve huge feats (again you can do good things or bad things with that ability)

www.bbc.com/news/technology-44628872

Scientists thought that they had curen disease with the invention of Pennicillin, guess what our latest mortal danger in medicine is these days?

www.cdc.gov/antibiotic-use/community/about/antibiotic-res...

As I said, less hype and more reality is needed by Muslims.

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#5 [Permalink] Posted on 21st August 2018 20:37
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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salaam shaikh,

sorry i should have been more clearer...

it is their belief that they will be able to upload human consciousness in an artificially created mechanical or maybe semi organic/mechanical body. they dont believe in the human soul so they believe the essence of a human is their consciousness. they believe that if they are able to somehow preserve the conscious of a human and upload it into a artificially created 'brain' then they can make that human live forever. place that brain into a man made body (mechanical, mechanical/organic, organic) then the consciousness will control that body. they believe that they will be able to achieve this once they create artificial intelligence as the artificial intelligence will be easily able to create the needed knowledge for the technology.
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#6 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 02:11
Things always start from ideas. Before the Wright Brothers flying in the air was just a dream. If the wright brothers would have believed that it's not possible like others and if they would have thought that so many people have died while trying to fly so why waste our energy on something which is "impossible" then we would not have aeroplanes today. Now I am not saying that immortality can be achieved because Kullu Nafsin Zaiqatul Maut. However u can't reject everything just by saying it's impossible. Muslims have to recognize the power of belief. Mainstream science is always changing and what seems impossible today can be possible tomorrow as many things considered impossible yesterday are possible today.
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#7 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 03:33
sipraomer wrote:
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artificial intelligence is not just an idea for them, they are actually experimenting and developing technology to create artificial intelligence. they see it as a reachable goal in the near future. they believe that once AI is achieved all they have to do is sit back and the AI will take over from there.

we believe in a soul and that a person is dead once the soul leaves the body. they dont believe in a soul, so they believe that if they somehow upload what they believe to be human consciousness into some sort of AI computer 'brain' (which will probably just be all the information stored in a human brain), they will believe they have achieved immortality by keeping this consciousness operating in an AI man made body.
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#8 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 04:20
Let them believe what they believe. Can they create emotions in that Artificial Intelligence? Can they solve the problem of sadness, emptiness, hollowness and unrest inside their souls without Islam?

My comment was not directed to your post but towards an attitude of denying everything unless not confirmed from so called mainstream experts because there are many things even in mainstream science which are not proven yet and instead rejected but are still taught in schools and universities for this or that motive. For example "EVOLUTION". So the question is that are those "Experts" to be believed in everything which they say and confirm simply because they are experts of their respective fields or is there another better criteria of knowing the truth?
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#9 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 04:47
Here is my hypothesis (or maybe stupidity for some)

Part 1:

1. The state of Israel is not a hoax? Is it? After 2000 years the children of Israel have successfully established a state. Is it not evidence enough that the arrival of Dajjal is very near?

2. Christians and Jews have never been allies but only from the last some hundred or so years. The West has left Christianity and adopted Secularism which means "Open rebellion against true God i.e. Allah and following of one's nafs". Is the Western Global Materialistic Secular Civilization not an ideal civilization for Dajjal's agenda of world domination to thrive? If the majority of humanity rejects or is ignorant of the true deen and worships false deities on aqeeda level and follows a global secular way of life on practical level then is it not the right time for Dajjal to emerge?

3. The Jews want to demolish Masjid e Aqsa and want to build Temple of Solomon there. Do they not? Is this a hoax too? Why do they want to build that temple? Any clue?

4. Is the idea of greater Israel also a hoax? Will the Jews, having a super super power, multinational companies, corporate banks, UN and so on and so forth at their disposal wait for another 1000 years to complete their agenda?

5. Did the Jews of Madina and Khayber not conspire against Islam? Was that a hoax too?


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#10 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 05:42
Part 2

1. Some folks have invented internet to "may be" share information. Or "may be" to spread mass confusion. Or "may be" the inventors had good intentions of benefiting the humanity but the villains hijacked this technology to spread lies and bring ideological warfare to the next level. There are many "may be"s here.

2. They have spread conspiracy theories so that conspiracy nutcases like me could shout out loud to wake up the slumbering masses without authentic and factual research.

3. Then the practical and wise realists point out that these are just conspiracy theories without any factual evidence. So just shut up. Dajjal is not coming soon and people start listening to the realists while shunning down sensationalists.

4. In the passion of refuting nutcases, the wise folk will keep on ignoring those real ground realities also which have nothing to do with theories but can be witnessed with naked eyes.

4. Behind the scenes, the Jews are laughing at the stupidity of gentiles and Dajjal is laughing at humans as a whole. They are doing their dirty work while the realists and sensationalists are fighting with each other.

5. The problem is that scientific and technological "evidences" can be declared as hoaxes because of their "unreliable source". But scientific evidence is not the only evidence. What about the intensity and the widespread fitnah being witnessed today mentioned as minor signs of qiyamah in the ahadith. If the realists believe that khilafah is going to come soon because of such and such hadith then why is it difficult to believe that khilafah after the khilafat e Rashida period in which the period of Sayyidina Umar Bin Abdul Aziz Rh is also included, is only going to come once which will be global and that would be in the times of Sayyidina Mahdi.

What about this hadith?

“Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: ‘Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah wills, then Allah will take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah Rashida (rightly guided) on the pattern of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah will take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood.’ Then he kept silent.” [Musnad Imam Ahmad]

So if the mujaddid of this century will bring khilafah back then according to the hadith above, is it difficult to concur that this khilafah will be the last one , will be the global one and will be by the hands of Imam Mahdi? And if it is so then is it difficult or impossible to think that Dajjal's time is near because Dajjal will appear in the lifetime of Sayyidina Mahdi?

6. The thing is that behind the scenes, the kuffar are doing what they are to do while nutcases and realists are arguing about the evidence. Masses are confused and unaware of the situation. But when the evil devil comes to power, all but few will be surprised. The majority will not know what is happening and bang "Ready! Steady! Go to hell".

7. So truth and falsehood have been craftily mixed so that nutcases spread it foolishly and realists could reject even the truth in it "realistically". So rejecting fake evidence is not the problem but what about those real events which are happening in the real world and not in the digital or imaginary world? This is why I strongly believe that this is the age of deception and his arrival is very near.

Now lets see how realists respond to this "stupid" hypothesis.
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#11 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 08:55
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#12 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 10:57

xs11ax wrote:
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xs11ax wrote:
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I work with Artificial Intelligence so what is your problem? It’s a computer which makes decisions based on pre-set algorithms.
2 examples of “basic” Artificial Intelligence people with every day:

  1. Interactive Cruise control of your car. Based on distance of the vehicle in the front car slows down
  2. Auto-Defrost. Your fridge/freezer automatically decides to initiate defrost based on certain temperature and conditions

Insulin pumps have artificial intelligence in automated mode where they can detect drop in insulin and automatically inject a patient.

As I said which you are not grasping, Technology is just technology it can be used for good or bad.

In even simpler terms, you can use a knife to cut an orange or harm someone. 

Where did you pickup this Anti-science attitude from? It is coming from conspiracy theory sites and people.

sipraomer wrote:
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sipraomer wrote:
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sipraomer wrote:
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As I said before, you are too obtuse to actually read and try to understand what people are saying.

  1. Israel is NOT a hoax
  2. Cloud seeding (artificial rain) is NOT a hoax
  3. Coming of Dajjal is NOT a hoax
  4. Establishment of Khilafaa is NOT a hoax
  5. Advancement in technology is a reality

BUT some of things which you are pedadling are Hoaxes which you have learned/picked up from right-wing, nutjob, Christian conspiracy theory peddlers and you are not knowledgeable enough to draw the line between hoax and reality.
I understand both of your line of reasoning which is basically that scientists think that ANYTHING is possible through advancement in science and IF it is possible, it is happening.

Your stance to science is basically from 18th century  Catholic Church (which is basically where our Ulama come from), Islam has no hiccups about scientific advancement and its usage which is the usage.

If cloud seeding can be used to relieve drought for humans/animals/crops there is NOTHING wrong with it in Islam. Dajjal will use it for sinister purposes and that is the issue (this is a specific example of cloud seeding).

As I said, you are too obtuse and don’t read as to what is being said. I am saying that SOME OF YOUR THEORIES are crazy, I am not saying EVERYTHING what you say is a Hoax.

And I saying consult with people of that field and LEARN if what you are saying makes sense or not.

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#13 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 11:35
Muadh_Khan wrote:
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salaam shaikh,

i think you have misunderstood me.

i am not against technology. it is my interest in technology that made me pick up the book.

i am not talking on the wider aspect of technology. i am talking about how some people literally believe that they will ascend to the level of gods through the technology of artificial intelligence and believe that eventually it will lead to what they think is immortality by uploading the human consciousness into an AI computer housed within a man made body.

i dont believe, but i entertain the idea that dajjal might not possess supernatural powers, but might use technology in order to deceive the people. if thats the case then the current trend of AI technology is very suited for him. it is for this reason that i am exploring this subject. not because i am against technology, but because i see that the abuse of technology can be very aptly used to deceive, manipulate, and control the people. if dajjal displays supernatural powers then will the modern world leaders and general people accept such a thing seeing as how atheism and the disbelief in the supernatural is the norm? but if dajjal displays advanced technology that is beyond our world then i expect people to very readily accept him as a higher being and readily accept his leadership of the world and expect him to resolve the problems of the world and mankind. when dajjal manifests himself to the world how will he introduce himself? will he just suddenly appear on the world scene or will he bring forward an explanation or story about who he is and where he has come from? in this regard i have entertained the notion that he may even portray himself as an extra terrestrial being that has arrived as a saviour for mankind. he may even claim that his extra terrestrial species are the creators of mankind, hence his claim to be a god. the futurists themselves are entertaining the notion that with highly advanced AI technology mankind will also ascend to the level of literal gods and will be able to create, so it is not far fetched to say that dajjal could make the claim that his species has already ascended to that level of advancement and that it is they that created mankind.

like i said, these are just thoughts based on what the hadith tells us regarding dajjal and the end times and how i loosely think it may become possible and manifest. at the same time i also believe i could be COMPLETELY off the mark!
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#14 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 11:47

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Its clear cut and obvious that Dajjal will use the latest and greatest technology and to his full advantage (which automatically means for evil purposes). It doesn’t have to be AI, it could be any technology.

For example, you can use cloud seeding (artificial rain) to:

  1. Relieve drought and hardship
  2. Flood large areas of land and cause destruction and havoc

So it doesn’t have to be just AI. Artificial Intelligence has decision making capability based on set algorithms, it’s neither ground breaking nor anything supremely extraordinary, the reason it is being talked about nowadays is because we have the compute (processing power) to actually number crunch and evaluate millions of scenarios in a very short time.

The reason for technology advancement in our times (in almost fields) is down to huge advancement in compute power and it doubles roughly every 18 months.

The next advancement is quantum computing which will fundamentally change and usher an enormous advancement in AI (and everything else). 

So Dajjal will obviously misuse all sorts of scientific and technological advanacements.

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#15 [Permalink] Posted on 22nd August 2018 12:01
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So I am learning, even if I am slow in learning. I have changed my stance (Thanks to your last post in another thread). I think I have not mentioned any scientific fake evidence this time. Whenever, my mistakes are pointed out. Alhamdulilah, I don't stick to them stubbornly but try to correct them. I thank Allah for not making me an alim and just an unofficial student of deen. Those who are afraid of making mistakes can't improve and can't correct themselves. Thanks to Allah that I am nothing special to be proud of which can hinder in my progress to correct my self. I pray that my attitude towards learning remains this way.

As far as my attitude towards science is concerned. Well! I think the industrial revolution has created a culture of consumerism and easy going-ness. The environment which scientific revolution has created is not good for practicing deen to it's fullest and do jihad. I am not saying that we should abandon science completely. However, what I am saying is that we must not disconnect from nature completely and there should be some balance between technology and nature. Because of industrial pollution, the planet is dying. My understanding of Islam is that it is a deen of simplicity and agrarian societies can be nurtured toward Islam more than Industrial societies. So instead of larger cities suburbs are better where the benefits of countryside and urban life both are available. Instead of converting cell phones into micro computers, texting and calling facilities are enough in a cell phone. Working day and night just to be able to collect gadgets and impress others with consumer branded products and not giving time to family, nature and worship is a phenomena of modern life. Committing the zina of eyes and ears is easier on internet than the real non digital life. In short, controlling and disciplining one's nafs is more difficult in this industrial age as compared to previous pre industrial ages.

So I am not against science as a whole, what I am trying to say is that it should remain confined within the limits of Islamic morality. Just like logic and other disciplines, excessive science can be an uncontrollable and harmful beast.
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